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01-27-2015, 05:16 PM   #16
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Hey, welcome!
I agree about the lack of WR primes! Many of us wish the FA limiteds would get an overhaul - adding WR and QS would make them killer lenses! Right now, I think the only WR primes are the DA* 55mm and DFA 100mm WR macro (both great lenses). Edit: Oh, sorry. Also the DA* 200mm, DA* 300mm, and DA 560mm, but these are not everyday lenses for most of us.

QuoteOriginally posted by misomosi Quote
Sony seems attractive because it's full frame and cheap for that matter.
True, but it has many drawbacks. Really loud shutter slap, not really a DSLR, lens lineup, ergonomics and menu layout.. But yes, when it comes to sensors in affordable boxes, Sony is right there. I wish Pentax would make a good deal with Sony to get those sensors, and then put them into good Pentax bodies! WR, green button, good ergonomics. Pentax squeezed so much from that 16MP sensor, made better cameras than the other brands, including sony, using that same sensor.

QuoteOriginally posted by misomosi Quote
Fuji seems even more attractive because of size, impressively fast and qualitative lenses
Fuji is quite good lately, but it is not really affordable. And the lens lineup is relatively small. Some real gems there, though. Also, I remember them having some sensor issues?

Not to say that Pentax is great and all others are bad. But Pentax brings a lot to the table for a good price. I found more cons than pros with the other brands, at least for my priorities. I know a couple Pentaxians here have two systems, like a Sony A7 with K-mount adapter, or a big Nikon beast and a compact Pentax DSLR for the times when they dont want to lug it around.

01-27-2015, 05:37 PM   #17
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I like to have WR when I need it - when the wind is up or when the rain comes. The problem with shooting with a prime in those conditions, if you need to change focal length you're opening up your camera to what has you using a WR lens in the first place. A zoom in those conditions, though not ideal in terms of optical quality, is far more sensible because of the various focal lengths one has using a zoom. But in those conditions, the 16-50 and the 50-135 and 60-250 are really good optically.

If ever I go on a substantial trip or if I am photographing an important event, I will ALWAYS have at least one WR lens in my kit.
01-27-2015, 05:45 PM   #18
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I think what matters is the overall size, and in that matter Panalympus do pretty well. And of course Fuji.

I am perfectly happy with the weight and size of my K-5, it has some nice heft without being too heavy.

Fuji's feel really nice. Now I also know why the test photos I have taken and processed in Lightroom are nothing special. It's a shame.

Keep in mind that for video Fuji is even worse than Pentax.

Samsung has something great with the NX1, but it is more of a professional camera... Maybe a bit big and heavy (more K-3 than mirrorless). But they want to stick that hardware in a smaller and cheaper box, so maybe...? They also seem to have nice lenses... Some impressive ones, and some small ones.

As for Pentax and video... It's not that bad. You can get some nice looking stuff out of it, with a rather filmic quality. The let downs come from them not making full use of the hardware. The bitrate should be much higher, and SR should be there as an option. SR really makes a difference in videos in my K-5, not so much for stills. It's a wasted opportunity.

The mirror slap isn't an issue with the K-5 (in terms of sound). My older Pentax was extremely loud though.
01-27-2015, 08:27 PM   #19

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I have a mate with a Rebel.. You want noisy shutters? Go buy a Canon DSLR or worse still, a Nikon D3X

01-27-2015, 10:06 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by misomosi Quote
IWho said that fast doesn't go well with lightweight? Fuji 23mm f1.4, 35mm f1.4, 56mm f1.2 is one heck of a set of primes.
I don't disagree with your assessment, but must note that the three lens Fuji kit you list here isn't really small or light. I have the 23 & 35 and really, really want the 56 APD, but when I truly need to slim down it's the Voigtlander 15/4.5 and the 35/1.4 (or 60mm macro) on the X-A1. Ability to use small (excellent) rangefinder lenses is a big bonus of mirrorless.

That being said, I'm coming back to Pentax (never really left) but mostly adapted onto my Fuji. The DA15 isn't much bigger than the Voigtlander! You won't find a smaller set than the DA15/DA21/DA40/DA70 Limiteds!
01-27-2015, 10:20 PM   #21

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QuoteOriginally posted by misomosi Quote
All weights I quoted are for camera body + battery + sd card. And I agree, for most people it's not nice to have something that feels like a toy in-hand. But that toy is so small you can carry it anywhere with little effort; that's something I can only dream of right now. Couple it with a Fuji 23mm f2 pancake (kit lens) and you have a pocketable toy. It's again subjective and also depends on many factors such as owner hand size, or finger length and so on. But I tried my long fingers on Sony a7 and on Olympuses and they feel very well in my hand.
I mean you're talking about grams...grams. Grams are a tiny measurement of weight. I sometimes carry two DSLR's with extra batteries and battery grips attached. No big deal IMO.

Well, I guess if these things are important to you...go for it.
01-28-2015, 12:12 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by misomosi Quote
SR is simply not as effective as it seems in theory. You can feel it, sometimes I wonder how did that 1/20 photo came out sharp.

Could you elaborate on this? I find SR very useful and will immediately notice whether it's on or off in low light situations.
Where it doesn't work (or is even detrimental) is panning.

For your use cases, landscape (where you should use a tripod and have it off) or street (where you pan or don't hold the camera steady), I agree, SR is not very useful.
01-28-2015, 12:44 AM - 1 Like   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by atomx Quote
The XT1 is a small body which works well with the primes.. After getting the new 50-140 f2.8 zoom I quickly discovered that long quality fast glass makes the XT1 very front heavy and awkward. I tried the grip, which helps with being able to get all your fingers on the camera but the camera is still very front heavy..
I use a Sony A6000, and I found the same thing. I love it with a small prime (wish the tiny 16-50 were better) as a compact alternative to my K3. However add the 55-210, and the compact body is not a plus. Add one of my longer Pentax lenses with the adapter, and the form factor is a joke.

01-28-2015, 12:57 AM   #24
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Many of you mentioned the Fuji video and rightfully! Sony a7 seems like the contender here as "Panalympus" have even smaller sensor than APS-C.

@lensmore49 - I'm talking about grams although the main thing I am looking for is small size such as in pocket-able. My K-50 is a small DSLR by any standards but in no way I can hide it in a pocket of my jacket even if I had the DA40 as standard lens.

@cxdoo - SR works, I can feel it too. I'm saying that by removing the mirror maybe (and the inherent vibrations from the slap) could be as useful as SR itself. It's a question of design - both designs work! but mirrorless is a much simpler design that might work as well as SR for focal lengths up to 80-100mm.

@Steve.Ledger: don't worry, I won't go Canon/Nikon. I had an entry-level Nikon D3100 that was stolen and it was a frustrating experience to use that camera. My K-50, although an entry-level camera was a huge step from that one.

Thanks for the input everyone.
01-28-2015, 01:28 AM   #25
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No wide WR primes? I completely agree, although the DA*16-50/2.8 is not too bad in that range, and has taken me many places where other cameras fear to tread.

Size and weight? Comparing a mid-level DSLR to expensive mirrorless and micro 4/3 systems is a bit egregious.

SR not effective? Have you tested this or are you just forming an opinion on the basis of the noisy mirror? I do a lot of informal portraits in available light, and frequently use shutter speeds well below 1/focal length with very sharp results. If you are shooting hand held, camera movement by the photographer is an infinitely bigger problem than mirror slap. If you are shooting on a tripod, use live view and turn SR off.

An example of SR in action. Wide open @ f/2.5 with an old manual focus lens on the noisy-shuttered K-S1. Feel free to look at the right eyebrow at full size in flickr at tell me if you see any sign of camera shake.
135mm, 1/25 sec.

Another with the same lens at 1/13 sec. I missed focus slightly, but there is not a double hair to be seen.

01-28-2015, 03:10 AM   #26
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It's a tool man. If you don't like Pentax hammers, keep buying until one feels right then preach that brands gospel. Modern digital Leicas aren't exactly small if you're going for a modern digital rangefinder of course... The k30 and k50 are pretty tiny cameras especially compared to the Nikon d7000 which shares it's sensor. I have a couple point and shoots for pocket cameras in the end though, part of the quality compromise is portability and discretion in the end.
01-28-2015, 05:27 AM - 1 Like   #27
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Leaf shutter is no way to go, because it is difficult to make one that is faster than 1/500 in any size larger than in P&S cameras. Even in P&S leaf shutter often can't go faster than 1/1000s wide open. For example, you get 1/4000 only with F8. I doubt you wish such stupid limitation on DSLR. And then you will have to have shutter built-in in every lens (cost, compatibility, size, weight).

If you didn't know, no mirrorless cameras use leaf shutter. All MLC use conventional focal-plane shutter. Some of them (like Sony A7) have even more loud and shaky shutter than K-50 and no SR Also, MLC have to CLOSE shutter before taking picture, then OPEN it and CLOSE once more after exposure is done, which adds (sometimes significant) delay and shake (you can google for Olympus 1/100s blur).

If you want quiet, just go with Pentax one-digit cameras (K-5 and K-3), their shutter sound is at least on par with most MLCs.

The other thing is fully electronic shutter, but it has it's own drawbacks. And any LiveView-capable DSLR has all the hardware to use electronic shutter, so it's matter of firmware. I think we will see electronic shutter in DSLRs in next 1-2 years.

As to me, I suppose that any modern DSLR is basically a MILC with added optical viewfinder and phase-detect focus system. So it is better than MILC at little cost of being slightly bigger and heavier. If you look at serious MILC, you will find that even K-3 is actually SMALLER than Panasonic GH4 or Samsung NX1
01-28-2015, 05:39 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by elektrolitr Quote
As to me, I suppose that any modern DSLR is basically a MILC with added optical viewfinder and phase-detect focus system. So it is better than MILC at little cost of being slightly bigger and heavier. If you look at serious MILC, you will find that even K-3 is actually SMALLER than Panasonic GH4 or Samsung NX1
Are you sure?

Significantly lighter
550 g vs 800 g

Slightly smaller
139x102x66 mm vs 131x100x77 mm

Pentax K-3 vs Samsung NX1 - Our Analysis

Now, the size difference isn't big, but keep in mind that the lens is closer to the screen, meaning even with a same size lens the overall package won't be as big. Samsung just didn't sacrifice the grip for smaller numbers in a brochure. Also IIRC they have a couple of pancakes too?
01-28-2015, 06:02 AM - 2 Likes   #29
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having read the OPs comments and the replies, i can only come to the conclusion that the OP did not really consider what he wanted as a camera in the first place.

he raises some good comments both on the plus and - side, but there are a few that are simply wrong. . These are:
- mirror / shutter noise. all DSLRs are loud, but the latest pentax cameras are some of the quietest ones out there. tru a K10D or K20D. Its like letting a bomb off in comparison. I agree for real silence, the Q with the iris shutter is really really quiet, but it is not in the same league. in this issue a P&S or mirrorless wins
- shake reduction. Here the OP is way off base. the mirror and shutter vibration are not limiting the performance, and his complaints of the performance gains are way off base. I regularly shoot 2-3 stops slower than the 1/(FL 8 crop factor) golden rule, and have shot a 500MM at 1/40 hand held. SR works, but is still dependant on good technique.
- Size/weight while true when comparing mirrorless to a DSLR sure it is heavy, but compare against DSLRS and lenses from Canikon, and you quickly find that pentax is the only offering that is reasonable. want 4/3 sure go ahead, but you give up on image quality a little, and have real issues going wide, because of the crop factor of 2.
- WR , here there is some complaint but, consider for example the case, no wr primes. why bother, in bad conditions you want a zoom, not a prime, because the advantage of WR is lost as soon as you take off the lens.

If the OP goes ellsewhere fine, its a free market and he can pick to spend his money where he wants. but he shouldnt bash the brand because of lack of research on his part up front.
01-28-2015, 06:29 AM   #30
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I don't think he is really bashing the brand. There are some valid concerns, and things that Pentax should do. Like WR primes or video improvements. Shutter noise not so much, my *istDS makes a *kaTONK* sound, it's pretty amazing really. A nice, mechanical sound, but one that draws a ton of attention. The K-5 though is quiet... much more so than say an A7. Having WR primes would be nice because yes, you may not be changing the lens while it rains, but I like only using one prime when going out anyway, and if necessary may find shelter to switch lenses. Rain often means less light anyway, so a faster lens is an advantage.

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