[mohb]

So what you want is Pentax to build a camera which suits your somewhat idiosyncratic style and elitist attitude towards photography. What is surprising is that someone with such strong views about what a camera should offer went and bought a K50.

[Lowell Goudge]

Hello forum, a bit of a late intervention but because of the pathetic tone this conversation has sunk into I preferred not to step in anymore. But because I also felt that the original post wasn't detailed enough, I put up this article that explains more in-depth what I was trying to say, including things that i have not mentioned here.

You know, it is really sad, that you just do not understand the comments people have posted here, and you continue on to blame the "pentax system" for the shortcomings you highlight.

Let's be clear on a few things here which in all honesty you have failed to understand

First and foremost , no camera manufacturer, not Fuji, not Sony, not Canon, , not Nikon, or even Leica make their cameras to be used with lenses from other manufacturers. They are all in the business of selling their lenses, not making cameas able to use other systems lenses. Even the adaptors are third party, non warranted by the makers, so let's drop the complaints right now on that matter.

Second, consider backwards compatibility, current
-sony(minolta mount) are only compatible with the AF minolta lenses, not the MF minolta or Konica lenses.
-Canon has totally abandoned their lens mount and legacy lenses not once but twice, and adaptors for any third party lens need special chips to work, anid these are not canon adaptors
-Nikon only offers backwards compatibility with some bodies, including screw drive AF. Not all Nikon bodies even support screw drive AF any longer, and some bodies don't even meter AT ALL with MF lenses etc....

So sure pentax has some limitations, but to be honest, the most flexible DSLR to use with any maker is really canon, because it has the shortest regestry distance, and a lens throat diameter that is bigger than all other makers, so it is mechanically possible to attach just about anything with an adaptor, it is just that canon does not make inter system adaptors.

As for focusing screen. NO DSLR maker offers a split image screen, they are all made by after market suppliers, so your complaint, while noted, is the same regardless of system you pick. Also, all focusing screens are designed to be bright,many show focus based upon about F4-5.6 because that is where most kit lenses have maximum aperture. Did you look into using the focus peaking option in live view. It beast ally turns the K50 into a P&S

As for the issue of weather sealed primes, this is , and will be a continuing point of contention. Many believe that it is useless, because you can't gaurantee sealing while changing lenses, others want to go out and shoot single lens. I'll give you part marks on this one.


Shake reduction. Here you are way off base. In body SR accounts for camera rotation which optical cannot do, and the mirror slap does nothing to impede this function. Also while it is true that SR. can't accompdate for subject movement, this is NOT an issue of Shake reduction, it is an issue of stopping motion, I really do not understand what you expected out of Shake reduction, in the first place, because it simply can't do anything for subject motion. Period


Overall, there is no system in the world that offers all you ask, you need to compromise somewhere. The fact that you seem to not wish to do OS, will only lead to similar threads bashing every brand until people tire of you all together

[misomosi]

Very good observations Lowell Grudge!

On using lenses from other manufacturers: I explicitly said in the article that I completely understand the fact that the company (in this case Pentax but holds true for any other) does not gain anything from designing a mount that can easily accomodate lenses from other manufacturers. But from a user perspective, compatibility with other lenses is highly desirable. Most likely, when mirrorless cameras were first designed, they had as primary goal size reduction and lens compatibility is only a side effect of the short register distance. But my main point is that it's worth knowing that you can't accommodate many lenses on Pentax. Not everybody thinks about that when they buy a camera although they might have such lenses.

On Backwards compatibility: I again said that Pentax is the best in this regard togheter with Leica at backwards compatibility with their own K Lenses. My concern is about M42 compatibility.

On SR: You are perfectly right - I shouldn't be saying anything about SR as it simply works as intended. But promising users 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 stops to the laymen, they will most likely bite it and might get disappointed when they realize what SR really is. But I still consider it much overrated in any system and it's obviously an industry trend nowadays. One seller was trying to sell me into Olympus because they has stabilization and Fuji has not... I simply asked him to give me the cameras to try the viewfinders..

Thanks for your input!

[Nicolas06]

Hello forum, a bit of a late intervention but because of the pathetic tone this conversation has sunk into I preferred not to step in anymore. But because I also felt that the original post wasn't detailed enough, I put up this article that explains more in-depth what I was trying to say, including things that i have not mentioned here.

The real bump that made me put it on paper was the pathetic way some folks at PentaxForums reacted when presenting them part of my disappointment with Pentax. Some folks seemed ridiculously disturbed by my complaints which is partly understandable from users of a system that is minoritary. But the reactions were resemblant those of highly-active-social-network-geeks that have that typical common negative way of speaking to the person at the other end over the network, and this is not understandable. I considered that trying to battle dozens of heavily Pentax biased fans does not lead anywhere. So here it is, in a presentable form for anybody to read without other distractions. I hope it sheds light on some aspects of the Pentax system that are not easy to learn before buying their equipment.

Today I'have spend my day shooting outside... And you ? Writing a rant on a brand and pathetic PentaxForums members?

[mohb]

I shouldn't be saying anything about SR as it simply works as intended. But promising users 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 stops to the laymen, they will most likely bite it and might get disappointed when they realize what SR really is.

What do ypu think the layman expects from SR?

[audiobomber]

One seller was trying to sell me into Olympus because they has stabilization and Fuji has not... I simply asked him to give me the cameras to try the viewfinders..

I use a K-3 and a Sony a6000. I have some very nice lenses for the Sony, Zeiss Touit 12mm f2.8 & 32mm f1.8, Sigma 60mm DN, Pentax A 135mm f2.8. I can assure you, I miss SR immensely when using the a6000. I have a pretty steady grip, but there's no question that I am a lot more steady with the K-3's help.

Have you used TAv mode on the K-50? That is a way to control ISO with either the front or rear dial. Let's say the camera meters f4, 1/50s, ISO 560, and you want to lower ISO by one stop. You can either open the aperture with the rear dial, or lower your shutter speed with the front dial. I use this mode frequently, especially in low light with a lens that I do not want to shoot at widest aperture due to sharpness or DOF.

I don't' believe I have ever heard anyone complain about controlling settings on a camera with twin dials. All upper end cameras have two dials. Do you really need to control ISO so closely? Why not set an acceptable range for the conditions and let auto ISO work within that range while you manage DOF, sharpness and shutter speed?

There are a few WR primes, but they are all telephoto (DA*55mm f1.4, D FA 100mm f2.8 macro, DA*200mm f2.8, DA*300mm f4). Your criticism of Pentax should be mollified by the fact that there are damned few WR primes from any maker, and the ones that exist are horribly expensive. Also note that Pentax is the only manufacturer that offers inexpensive consumer grade WR zoom lenses (18-55, 50-200, 18-135, 55-300).

The good news is, you wrote your anti-Pentax article after you came here. Some of the misinformation in your thread starter post has been dropped or corrected in your blog. The tone of this thread is a reaction to your unfair critique, so a good deal of the blame is on you.

[misomosi]

@audiobomber, I have edited the article and quoted you directly. Here's what I added:

EDIT: At the suggestion of PentaxForums user audiobomber I should add that Pentax does have some WR primes (DA*55mm f1.4, D FA 100mm f2.8 macro, DA*200mm f2.8, DA*300mm f4) although they are not small in size as the DA Limiteds (DA* 55 and DA 100 are not necessarily big though). On WR primes availability from other manufacturers - a quote from the same audiobomber "there are damned few WR primes from any maker, and the ones that exist are horribly expensive"

On the ISO problem - my concern is about the principle of not being able to seamlessly adjust a this basic parameter without resorting to workarounds. Thank you for your suggestions but I already have tried all the possible ways I could control the ISO even before receiving any of the suggestions in this thread. Whenever I don't want to bother about it (say I shoot some casual photos that I don't care about very much) I put my camera in Av and have one dial assigned for it, ore use indeed the AutoISO range in a reasonable limit.

Yes, I blame myself for not being detailed enough in the original post, but how can one know how specific one has to be in order to avoid such situation?

@Nicolas06: Next time they announce weather as bad as I had today, I'll invite you for a cup of coffee at my place and you'll be grateful for not being outside and shooting. That doesn't excuse my comment targeted at some of the members that posted here though but I think it's well worth. I could very well not say anything about but some have stepped over a certain line... Allow me not to comment any further on this.

[LensBeginner]

Actually if you want to use different manufacturers' lenses on the same camera, you're in luck.
Just order a PK+MultiMount oR what's called and you'll opeb up an almost limitless array of choices...

[carpents]

Hello forum, a bit of a late intervention but because of the pathetic tone this conversation has sunk into I preferred not to step in anymore. But because I also felt that the original post wasn't detailed enough, I put up this article that explains more in-depth what I was trying to say, including things that i have not mentioned here.

misomosi, I shoot mainly with adapted lenses on a Fuji mirrorless, so consider me someone who at least is on the same wavelength as you.

However, I think your criticisms of the camera are mostly unwarranted. Some comments for you to digest:
(1) Pentax (Asahi Optical Co.) made no M42 lenses which require a stop-down adapter as far as I know. All their lenses were either pre-set, semi-auto (like the Auto Takumars), or had an Auto/Manual. Third party manufacturers made the lenses which require a different adapter.
(2) I have been using M42 lenses with the 'springless' adapter for 10 years now without incident.
(3) Like Lowell said, Nikon cripples metering on some of their bodies, making them the worst for backwards compatibility. Canon (requiring chipped adapters) is in the same boat IMO.
(4) WR lenses: Can you name a system with small weather-sealed bodies *and* lenses? IMO, since Pentax lenses are so small, it is easier to find a $3 solution: B&H sells them here.
(5) All modern cameras (except for Leicas) have inaccurate focus screens because of what Lowell said.

Finally, what exactly was your recommendation? Should people buy a Nikon or a Canon instead? Should people buy a Fuji?

IMO, some of the items you speak at - like adapting lenses - appeal to the 1% of 1% of photographers. The vast majority of photographers *not using their phone* have the kit lens, and nothing else. And the vast majority of photographs are from phones.

In a nutshell, you got some vitriol sent your way because most of us disagree with some - or all - of your complaints. Fair or unfair, this is the Internet.

[misomosi]

Actually if you want to use different manufacturers' lenses on the same camera, you're in luck.
Just order a PK+MultiMount oR what's called and you'll opeb up an almost limitless array of choices...

@LensBeginner - I didn't include the name in the article but I said that you can modify the camera mount. But in doing so the camera loses it's WR property, so that's not for everyone

---------- Post added 02-01-15 at 07:19 PM ----------

@carpents
1% of 1% of photographers is the target audience of that article. It's by design not a complete review of the system or of a camera but rather touches some issues that those 1% of 1% of photographers might encounter. I started the story with that KM + primes experience. I'm sure many readers leave it there and press CTRL+W but I expect that. I have some friends that do photography professionally including one that used a fixed Zeiss Ultron M42 on a Canon to film my wedding! People like these are interested in this kind of stuff.

[carpents]

So what's your recommendation then? I can tell you why it wouldn't be a Canon or a Nikon, and why mirrorless isn't for everyone either.

So if the K50 has limitations, what doesn't? Especially if your target audience is people like me.

[misomosi]

So what's your recommendation then? I can tell you why it wouldn't be a Canon or a Nikon, and why mirrorless isn't for everyone either.

So if the K50 has limitations, what doesn't? Especially if your target audience is people like me.

I'm not suggesting Canon/Nikon or anything else. Otherwise I would have sold my K-50 already. Even in the article, I didn't say "go get a Fuji" because I can't say that until I prove myself that there is a Fuji that fits my requirements. For now, it seems there isn't any, but I'm trying to find a camera that is smaller than K5, quiet as K5, that can give me the same image quality in more or less the same prince range. But as offerings are nowdays I think it's not easy at all, if not impossible!

I would be very interested if you ever post or posted your observations on Fuji, especially because you now know both of them.

[Nicolas06]

@misomosi, if you want to be fair in your rant:

On WR, yeah there no wide angle WR prime, still there are many zooms and a few are quite affordable. No other maker provide that.

On entry level/prosumer:
- DA18-55 WR
- DA50-200 WR
- DA55-300 WR
- DA16-85 WR
- DA18-135 WR

On high end level:
-DA20-40 ltd WR (could perfectly fit you need for small/unobtrusive)
- DA*16-50
- DA*50-135
- DA*60-250

On primes even through this one is very expensive you missed the DA*560.

From practical purpose, zoom are more interresting in harsh conditions because changing lenses is to be avoided. And the choice of zooms is there very broad. Even the high end zoom don't come with the high price of Canikon highest end gear. This is simply not possible to find more budget friendly WR solution for a DSLR other than Pentax. Many for example would have prime and so on like you and would have kept their kit lens in WR version when the conditions are bad.

And well DA20-40 WR is not that expensive, it is quite small, unobtrusive, very well build and WR. Would work quite well for you needs I think.

As for the small prime that are not WR... You'll not find them in other system at all, even without WR anyway. This is still your best bet.

On viewfinder: No other brand provide split prism or whatver to focus with manual lenses better. This is intented by all brands you go with AF.

On stabilisation: you view is that for still everybody shoot on a tripod and add ND filter to slow down shooting time. I do have a tripod and used it today but I can say you something: you dont need a tripod to shoot landscape, even to shoot HDR. Even more tripod use is more the exception than the rule. Tripod are necessary for long exposure and that's all (to show motion or gather more light for example) If do not need long exposure, you don't need a tripod.

On mode dial you say you have no dedicated iso button and no top LCD. I understand this is boring. Let me explain you one thing through. The K50 is equivalent of D3100. As you explained, in many ways it is far far better. But it is the entry level. For something better this is K5, K5-II, K3. You want an iso button and top LCD screen? Just buy a K5, K5-II or K3. I sold my K5 1 year ago used for 300€. Many other did when they brought their K3 too or before K5-II (often a bit more expensive through). For you need clearly you needed a higher end model, this could have been achieved for the same money you spend on your used K50. Even new, a K5-II is 600€ today and when I brought my 3 1 year ago a new K5 was available for less than 500€. You comment on theses body is very interresting through: ""K-5 and K-3 might be better suited but they too aren't quite there.". Really? You tried them? Typically I change the iso on my K3 without leaving the viewfinder all the time. I don't get any backscreen going on problem. On different occasion I use the top screen LCD... Your problem that anoy you so much is only here because you have an entry level camera and expected it to behave like a pro model.

All in all if you just brought an used K5 with an updated viewfinder you would have all you wanted... And for 400€, maybe less now. You didn't know that back then and while nobody can't blame you to have not seen everything even through the information was available I don't think you rant is really that helpfull. At least here people respond and so the other in the same situation as you can find the responce. On your ticket on your website, there is no solution so that not that usefull for your friends indeed. They may pass on the brand or think there no solution while some simple and innexpensive solutions do exist.

[kadajawi]

You know, it is really sad, that you just do not understand the comments people have posted here, and you continue on to blame the "pentax system" for the shortcomings you highlight.

Let's be clear on a few things here which in all honesty you have failed to understand

First and foremost , no camera manufacturer, not Fuji, not Sony, not Canon, , not Nikon, or even Leica make their cameras to be used with lenses from other manufacturers. They are all in the business of selling their lenses, not making cameas able to use other systems lenses. Even the adaptors are third party, non warranted by the makers, so let's drop the complaints right now on that matter.

Second, consider backwards compatibility, current
-sony(minolta mount) are only compatible with the AF minolta lenses, not the MF minolta or Konica lenses.
-Canon has totally abandoned their lens mount and legacy lenses not once but twice, and adaptors for any third party lens need special chips to work, anid these are not canon adaptors
-Nikon only offers backwards compatibility with some bodies, including screw drive AF. Not all Nikon bodies even support screw drive AF any longer, and some bodies don't even meter AT ALL with MF lenses etc....

So sure pentax has some limitations, but to be honest, the most flexible DSLR to use with any maker is really canon, because it has the shortest regestry distance, and a lens throat diameter that is bigger than all other makers, so it is mechanically possible to attach just about anything with an adaptor, it is just that canon does not make inter system adaptors.

As for focusing screen. NO DSLR maker offers a split image screen, they are all made by after market suppliers, so your complaint, while noted, is the same regardless of system you pick. Also, all focusing screens are designed to be bright,many show focus based upon about F4-5.6 because that is where most kit lenses have maximum aperture. Did you look into using the focus peaking option in live view. It beast ally turns the K50 into a P&S

As for the issue of weather sealed primes, this is , and will be a continuing point of contention. Many believe that it is useless, because you can't gaurantee sealing while changing lenses, others want to go out and shoot single lens. I'll give you part marks on this one.


Shake reduction. Here you are way off base. In body SR accounts for camera rotation which optical cannot do, and the mirror slap does nothing to impede this function. Also while it is true that SR. can't accompdate for subject movement, this is NOT an issue of Shake reduction, it is an issue of stopping motion, I really do not understand what you expected out of Shake reduction, in the first place, because it simply can't do anything for subject motion. Period


Overall, there is no system in the world that offers all you ask, you need to compromise somewhere. The fact that you seem to not wish to do OS, will only lead to similar threads bashing every brand until people tire of you all together

Actually there are camera manufacturers who make cameras for third party lenses, cameras with interchangeable mount etc. But that's the high end video market. The sort of manufacturer that we are in the market of wants to sell lenses, as you said.


I fully agree with you, the Pentax system is as close as you can get to what the TS wants. Start your own company if you want more.


You can buy cheaper micro prism split screen focusing screens that work just as well. And it's not in the interest of the manufacturer to sell you these. In fact, in most competing products, especially in the K-50 price range you are not even able to switch the screen. They are fixed. Once you reach the semi pro/pro level cameras they will at least let you switch it. We are talking K-3 and above here...


"With SR ON, one can gain anywhere up to 4 full stops of light. But what kind of stops? ISO stops? Aperture stops? Shutter speed stops?"
You are aware that they are the same, right? From ISO 100 to 200 is the same as from f2 to f1.4 or from 1/30 to 1/15.


With my K-5 you can change the focal length in the menu, I'd be surprised if that wasn't possible in the K-50.


I understand that you are probably not a native English speaker, but your tone, especially in the beginning, is rather offensive. It's no surprise that people were annoyed by what you had to say... especially when plenty of what you are saying is unwarranted or not at all better with other systems. In general the tone of your blog post could be much improved. Your rant about SR for example could be shortened to "Keep in mind that SR will only help you get longer exposures, so if your motive is in motion it will be useless."


What you are looking for is a Nikon Df.


As for backwards compatibility I'd say Nikon is probably the best, yes, of course not with their cheap entry level cameras. So what. That's like picking up a Ford Ka and expecting it to be able to do the same as a Ford F150. No it can't. You are paying less for it, and it is smaller and lighter. Pentax is good across the board, but Nikon can go beyond that if you are willing to spend.

[Oldbayrunner]

@Nicolas06: Next time they announce weather as bad as I had today, I'll invite you for a cup of coffee at my place and you'll be grateful for not being outside and shooting

Perhaps instead of sitting inside sucking up coffee you might try going outside in some of that announced weather and see what the real value of having a WR camera, with some of those few WR lenses you rant about, can do even with it being your disliked K50. You just might surprise yourself.

OR.. You can buy that Fuji wrap yourself and it up in plastic to get out there...