Camera Shake : K3/K5 Mirror Up vs. Live View

sdgreen · 02-04-2015, 10:44 AM

I want to take bracketed shots on a K3/K5 using mirror lock up. The only way I can see of doing this is to enable live view & use single shot bracketing.

However, I read on this Canon forum

Live View vs. Mirror Lockup - Photo.net Canon EOS Forum

that there is a difference with regard to the shutter curtain which means that Live View is not as effective as Mirror Up in reducing vibration - at least with Canons.

Does anyone know if, when it comes to vibration, Live View is the same as Mirror Up mode on a Pentax? Particularly regarding this shutter curtain thing.

Thanks

derekkite · 02-04-2015, 11:15 AM

The K5 and K3 differ I believe. On the K-3 in live view, you press the shutter button, the shutter mechanism closes, then the curtain opens for the exposure, then opens again to expose the sensor for live view. I believe the K-5 had the full mirror action.

I use it with long lens long shutter duration shots and live view makes a substantial difference.

DeadJohn · 02-04-2015, 11:24 AM

I tested on my K-5 more than a year ago. I remember live view dropping and raising the mirror again between shots.

Try the 2-second timer. That raises the mirror as soon as you press the shutter button, waits 2 seconds, then takes the photo. I don't recall how it works with bracketing, though.

sdgreen · 02-04-2015, 12:00 PM

After posting this It occurred to me there's a way to answer my own question

Without a lens on it's easy to see what's happening.

It seems as if live view & mirror up are different when it comes to the shutter curtain

It looks to me that, for mirror up, the shutter curtain is closed by default . It then opens & closes for the duration of the exposure.
(SHUT-OPEN-SHUT)

In live view, the shutter curtain is open by default. It then closes & opens quickly, stays open for the duration of the exposure then shuts & re-opens again

(OPEN-SHUT-OPEN-SHUT-OPEN)

It's the initial closing & opening of the shutter curtain I was concerned may cause vibration (I have no idea whether this would affect sharpness..it's just a shame bracketing cannot be combined with mirror up)

85Civic · 02-04-2015, 01:24 PM

With the K-5 IIs there's three bracketing options and one of them is the two second self timer.
So before every exposure you have that two seconds, and it's all done with one press of the shutter/remote.

When I moved over to Pentax I also heard that mirror lock ups integrated into the self timer, so if that's true using the self timer bracketing would be your answer

sdgreen · 02-04-2015, 02:43 PM

I wish that were the case. I've tried Bracketing with Self Timer & unfortunately the mirror flips up & down for each exposure (I tried this without the lens so I can see what's happening). There really is no way of combining auto bracketing with mirror up on a Pentax that I know of.

That leaves the live view option I mentioned above. I'll have to experiment to see if there is any visible shutter induced vibration...otherwise it's over to Nikon! (the drive & bracketing modes are separate on the D7000 series)

DeadJohn · 02-04-2015, 04:06 PM

Originally posted by sdgreen

I wish that were the case. I've tried Bracketing with Self Timer & unfortunately the mirror flips up & down for each exposure (I tried this without he lens so I can see what's happening). There really is no way of combining auto bracketing with mirror up on a Pentax that I know of.

That leaves the live view option I mentioned above. I'll have to experiment to see if there is any visible shutter induced vibration...otherwise it's over to Nikon! (the drive & bracketing modes are separate on the D7000 series)

Does the mirror move at the start or the end of the 2 second countdown? If start, then vibrations from the mirror have time to dampen before each bracketed exposure.

85Civic · 02-04-2015, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by DeadJohn

Does the mirror move at the start or the end of the 2 second countdown? If start, then vibrations from the mirror have time to dampen before each bracketed exposure.

I'd probably say the second just because it counts down before it does anything ... but if it is the first one, then that solves everything right?

Plus Full Frames also been announced so if you can wait that long that one might have what you want

**TedH42** · 02-04-2015, 09:50 PM

Originally posted by DeadJohn

Does the mirror move at the start or the end of the 2 second countdown? If start, then vibrations from the mirror have time to dampen before each bracketed exposure.

Originally posted by 85Civic

I'd probably say the second just because it counts down before it does anything ... but if it is the first one, then that solves everything right?

Plus Full Frames also been announced so if you can wait that long that one might have what you want

Easy to check. On my K-3, the mirror goes up at the START of the 2-second delay for each of the shots. Going up at the end is useless.

DeadJohn · 02-04-2015, 10:37 PM

Originally posted by TedH42

Easy to check. On my K-3, the mirror goes up at the START of the 2-second delay for each of the shots. Going up at the end is useless.

Agreed, but on my K-5 that's how the 12 second timer acts. The 2 second timer works correctly.

derekkite · 02-04-2015, 10:45 PM

Looking at the K-5 in live view, if you hit the shutter it closes the shutter mechanism, then the curtains open and close to expose. The K-3 is the same. With the 2 or 12 second, the shutter mechanism covers the sensor, the delay counts down, then the exposure happens. Both seem to operate the same way.

In my hands watching into the body without the lens, the K-5 movement can be felt, the K-3 not. The mirror action in the K-3 is a bit heavier.

**TedH42** · 02-05-2015, 09:26 AM

Originally posted by DeadJohn

Agreed, but on my K-5 that's how the 12 second timer acts. The 2 second timer works correctly.

The purpose of the 2-second timer function is exactly to get the mirror up and let the slap vibrations die out before the picture is captured. The purpose of the 12-second timer function is to let the photographer get into the picture (hit the button and run around to join the group in front of the camera, which is on some solid support).

Very different functions.

sdgreen · 02-06-2015, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by DeadJohn

Does the mirror move at the start or the end of the 2 second countdown? If start, then vibrations from the mirror have time to dampen before each bracketed exposure.

The 2 sec delay only occurs before the first exposure. There is no delay between mirror up & down for the subsequent exposures

---------- Post added 02-06-15 at 05:27 PM ----------

Originally posted by 85Civic

I'd probably say the second just because it counts down before it does anything ... but if it is the first one, then that solves everything right?

Plus Full Frames also been announced so if you can wait that long that one might have what you want

See above reply. It'll be a couple of years before I could consider a FF..& lenses may/may not be available

**TedH42** · 02-06-2015, 10:41 AM

Originally posted by sdgreen

The 2 sec delay only occurs before the first exposure. There is no delay between mirror up & down for the subsequent exposures

This is not what I see.

Try NOT live View. On BOTH my K-5 and K-3, there is a 2 second delay, with mirror-up at the start, before EACH of the several bracketing exposures.

sdgreen · 02-06-2015, 11:45 AM

OK thanks for that. I will give it a try to make sure. Hope it works..would be the answer. After all this discussion I need to go over & check everything I've seen!

02-04-2015, 10:44 AM	#1
sdgreen Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Sheffield UK Posts: 29	Camera Shake : K3/K5 Mirror Up vs. Live View I want to take bracketed shots on a K3/K5 using mirror lock up. The only way I can see of doing this is to enable live view & use single shot bracketing. However, I read on this Canon forum Live View vs. Mirror Lockup - Photo.net Canon EOS Forum that there is a difference with regard to the shutter curtain which means that Live View is not as effective as Mirror Up in reducing vibration - at least with Canons. Does anyone know if, when it comes to vibration, Live View is the same as Mirror Up mode on a Pentax? Particularly regarding this shutter curtain thing. Thanks

02-04-2015, 12:00 PM	#4
sdgreen Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Sheffield UK Posts: 29 Original Poster	Answering my own question! After posting this It occurred to me there's a way to answer my own question Without a lens on it's easy to see what's happening. It seems as if live view & mirror up are different when it comes to the shutter curtain It looks to me that, for mirror up, the shutter curtain is *closed* by default . It then opens & closes for the duration of the exposure. (SHUT-OPEN-SHUT) In live view, the shutter curtain is *open* by default. It then closes & opens quickly, stays open for the duration of the exposure then shuts & re-opens again (OPEN-SHUT-OPEN-SHUT-OPEN) It's the initial closing & opening of the shutter curtain I was concerned may cause vibration (I have no idea whether this would affect sharpness..it's just a shame bracketing cannot be combined with mirror up)

02-04-2015, 02:43 PM	#6
sdgreen Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Sheffield UK Posts: 29 Original Poster	I wish that were the case. I've tried Bracketing with Self Timer & unfortunately the mirror flips up & down for each exposure (I tried this without the lens so I can see what's happening). There really is no way of combining auto bracketing with mirror up on a Pentax that I know of. That leaves the live view option I mentioned above. I'll have to experiment to see if there is any visible shutter induced vibration...otherwise it's over to Nikon! (the drive & bracketing modes are separate on the D7000 series) Last edited by sdgreen; 02-06-2015 at 10:20 AM. Reason: spelling error

02-06-2015, 10:26 AM	#13
sdgreen Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Sheffield UK Posts: 29 Original Poster	Originally posted by DeadJohn Does the mirror move at the start or the end of the 2 second countdown? If start, then vibrations from the mirror have time to dampen before each bracketed exposure. The 2 sec delay only occurs before the first exposure. There is no delay between mirror up & down for the subsequent exposures ---------- Post added 02-06-15 at 05:27 PM ---------- Originally posted by 85Civic I'd probably say the second just because it counts down before it does anything ... but if it is the first one, then that solves everything right? Plus Full Frames also been announced so if you can wait that long that one might have what you want See above reply. It'll be a couple of years before I could consider a FF..& lenses may/may not be available Last edited by sdgreen; 02-06-2015 at 10:33 AM. Reason: To add something

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02-04-2015, 11:15 AM	#2
derekkite Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nelson B.C. Posts: 3,782	The K5 and K3 differ I believe. On the K-3 in live view, you press the shutter button, the shutter mechanism closes, then the curtain opens for the exposure, then opens again to expose the sensor for live view. I believe the K-5 had the full mirror action. I use it with long lens long shutter duration shots and live view makes a substantial difference.

02-04-2015, 11:24 AM	#3
DeadJohn Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: New York Posts: 4,834	I tested on my K-5 more than a year ago. I remember live view dropping and raising the mirror again between shots. Try the 2-second timer. That raises the mirror as soon as you press the shutter button, waits 2 seconds, then takes the photo. I don't recall how it works with bracketing, though.

02-04-2015, 01:24 PM	#5
85Civic Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Whangaparaoa Photos: Gallery Posts: 233	With the K-5 IIs there's three bracketing options and one of them is the two second self timer. So before every exposure you have that two seconds, and it's all done with one press of the shutter/remote. When I moved over to Pentax I also heard that mirror lock ups integrated into the self timer, so if that's true using the self timer bracketing would be your answer

02-04-2015, 04:06 PM	#7
DeadJohn Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: New York Posts: 4,834	Originally posted by sdgreen I wish that were the case. I've tried Bracketing with Self Timer & unfortunately the mirror flips up & down for each exposure (I tried this without he lens so I can see what's happening). There really is no way of combining auto bracketing with mirror up on a Pentax that I know of. That leaves the live view option I mentioned above. I'll have to experiment to see if there is any visible shutter induced vibration...otherwise it's over to Nikon! (the drive & bracketing modes are separate on the D7000 series) Does the mirror move at the start or the end of the 2 second countdown? If start, then vibrations from the mirror have time to dampen before each bracketed exposure.

02-04-2015, 04:10 PM	#8
85Civic Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Whangaparaoa Photos: Gallery Posts: 233	Originally posted by DeadJohn Does the mirror move at the start or the end of the 2 second countdown? If start, then vibrations from the mirror have time to dampen before each bracketed exposure. I'd probably say the second just because it counts down before it does anything ... but if it is the first one, then that solves everything right? Plus Full Frames also been announced so if you can wait that long that one might have what you want

02-04-2015, 09:50 PM	#9
TedH42 F/8 & Somewhere Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Colorado Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,412	Originally posted by DeadJohn Does the mirror move at the start or the end of the 2 second countdown? If start, then vibrations from the mirror have time to dampen before each bracketed exposure. Originally posted by 85Civic I'd probably say the second just because it counts down before it does anything ... but if it is the first one, then that solves everything right? Plus Full Frames also been announced so if you can wait that long that one might have what you want Easy to check. On my K-3, the mirror goes up at the START of the 2-second delay for each of the shots. Going up at the end is useless.

02-04-2015, 10:37 PM	#10
DeadJohn Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: New York Posts: 4,834	Originally posted by TedH42 Easy to check. On my K-3, the mirror goes up at the START of the 2-second delay for each of the shots. Going up at the end is useless. Agreed, but on my K-5 that's how the 12 second timer acts. The 2 second timer works correctly.

02-04-2015, 10:45 PM	#11
derekkite Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nelson B.C. Posts: 3,782	Looking at the K-5 in live view, if you hit the shutter it closes the shutter mechanism, then the curtains open and close to expose. The K-3 is the same. With the 2 or 12 second, the shutter mechanism covers the sensor, the delay counts down, then the exposure happens. Both seem to operate the same way. In my hands watching into the body without the lens, the K-5 movement can be felt, the K-3 not. The mirror action in the K-3 is a bit heavier.

02-05-2015, 09:26 AM	#12
TedH42 F/8 & Somewhere Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Colorado Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,412	Originally posted by DeadJohn Agreed, but on my K-5 that's how the 12 second timer acts. The 2 second timer works correctly. The purpose of the 2-second timer function is exactly to get the mirror up and let the slap vibrations die out before the picture is captured. The purpose of the 12-second timer function is to let the photographer get into the picture (hit the button and run around to join the group in front of the camera, which is on some solid support). Very different functions.

02-06-2015, 10:41 AM	#14
TedH42 F/8 & Somewhere Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Colorado Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,412	Originally posted by sdgreen The 2 sec delay only occurs before the first exposure. There is no delay between mirror up & down for the subsequent exposures This is not what I see. Try NOT live View. On BOTH my K-5 and K-3, there is a 2 second delay, with mirror-up at the start, before EACH of the several bracketing exposures.

02-06-2015, 11:45 AM	#15
sdgreen Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Sheffield UK Posts: 29 Original Poster	OK thanks for that. I will give it a try to make sure. Hope it works..would be the answer. After all this discussion I need to go over & check everything I've seen!