Doesn't Hyperprogram make Av and Tv redundant?

Alcazar · 02-20-2015, 04:57 AM

Hey there,
i'm a manual shooter myself, but i've been wondering why Pentax keeps the Av and Tv modes on the mode dial... do they give any advantage over simply using Hyperprogram?
Micha / Alcazar

elektrolitr · 02-20-2015, 05:04 AM

I use Av mode and customized front dial to change Exposure compensation (without pressing EV button)

And I sometimes use P mode (with program line set to MTF priority) when using non-fixed aperture zooms

Al_Kahollick · 02-20-2015, 05:05 AM

Well, for one thing, Tv and Av maintain your settings when your camera is turned off. In P mode, they revert back to the "auto/green mode" setting.

Stone G. · 02-20-2015, 05:39 AM

Originally posted by Alcazar

Av and Tv modes on the mode dial... do they give any advantage over simply using Hyperprogram?

Yes they do. Hyperprogram does a "best guess" what will be the optimum exposure settings for you. In Tv and Av mode (and don't forget Tav mode) you are in control and can choose, for example, aperture according to light available and DOF desired or exposure time according to movements of your subject.

The very nice thing about Pentax P-mode is that with the right menu settings you can change immediately to Tv or Av mode with a flip of the front- and rear control wheels respectively. Thus, one may use P as one's "ever-ready mode".

Na Horuk · 02-20-2015, 05:44 AM

Originally posted by Stone G.

In Tv and Av mode (and don't forget Tav mode) you are in control and can choose, for example, aperture according to light available and DOF desired or exposure time according to movements of your subject.

Yep. If you want slower shutter for some motion blur during panning, or faster shutter to freeze action, or wider or shallower DoF, and so on. Its about control vs. time required. M mode gives you all the control, but takes a bit of time to set up. Sometimes you don't have the time, so you switch to Av, or even P. Auto does everything for you, so it is fastest, but you have almost no control over what it does. The key it so know how it works, so you know if its choices will be acceptable to your needs, or if you need to take more control.

rangercarp · 02-20-2015, 06:20 AM

Originally posted by Stone G.

The very nice thing about Pentax P-mode is that with the right menu settings you can change immediately to Tv or Av mode with a flip of the front- and rear control wheels respectively. Thus, one may use P as one's "ever-ready mode".

What you call "ever-ready" is the hyper-program the OP is referring to. When in P mode, you can adjust the aperture or shutter speed with a twist of the e dial. With this feature, is their any need for true Tv and Av? that is what the OP is asking. I for one often shoot in aperture priority, but I do it with hyper program far more often than with Av.

"program" is letting the camera set the aperture and shutter speed. "Hyper-program" is when you adjust the aperture or shutter speed to your desired value while the mode dial is still set to P.

bdery · 02-20-2015, 06:23 AM

Originally posted by Al_Kahollick

Well, for one thing, Tv and Av maintain your settings when your camera is turned off. In P mode, they revert back to the "auto/green mode" setting.

That's the main reason I see. That and the fact that people expect these modes to be there.

Originally posted by Stone G.

Yes they do. Hyperprogram does a "best guess" what will be the optimum exposure settings for you. In Tv and Av mode (and don't forget Tav mode) you are in control and can choose, for example, aperture according to light available and DOF desired or exposure time according to movements of your subject.

Hyperprogram works exactly like Tv or Av, depending on which dial you rotate. It is identical.

Stone G. · 02-20-2015, 07:34 AM

Originally posted by rangercarp

"Hyper-program" is when you adjust the aperture or shutter speed to your desired value while the mode dial is still set to P.

Originally posted by bdery

Hyperprogram works exactly like Tv or Av, depending on which dial you rotate. It is identical

Well, maybe this is a matter of (my misconception of) names, but in each mode P, Av, Tv........ you can program the e-dials for a number of different controls.

Eg.: in P-mode you many choose between Av/Tv or Exposure/Pshift control while at the same time you can have the e-dials in Av mode programmed to no action/Av or exposure compensation/Av or ISO/Av control etc. (At least, that's what I can do on my K-3).

So, whatever, I wouldn't say that 'hyperprogram' makes Av or Tv modes redundant the way Pentax has designed options for e-dial programing?

RMabo · 02-20-2015, 08:14 AM

I find Pentax adoption of P, Av and Tv to be very clever and a nice idea that started so long ago even the Z-1 had it.

The novelty is the green button to "reset" the exposure according to choosen program line, so HyP is more flexible than standard Av or Tv, but I really like standard Av and Tv too in combination with ISO-control on the 2nd dial. They all have their purpose, it depends on the situation. It's nice to have those options.

mrNewt · 02-20-2015, 08:43 AM - **1 Like**

A lot of things on these new cameras could be considered redundant... the beauty of this is options.
Trying to appeal to a lot of users with all kind of habits and preferences is the key to success. From all those options, take what works for you and ignore the rest... unless you need it from time to time.

bdery · 02-20-2015, 08:56 AM

Originally posted by Stone G.

Well, maybe this is a matter of (my misconception of) names, but in each mode P, Av, Tv........ you can program the e-dials for a number of different controls.

Of course if you change how the dials operate... you're not talking about the same thing anymore. The OP wasn't referring to exposure shift, I believe. When using a dial to change the aperture in P mode, the camera behaves exactly as it would in Av mode.

Nicolas06 · 02-20-2015, 12:10 PM

Originally posted by bdery

Of course if you change how the dials operate... you're not talking about the same thing anymore. The OP wasn't referring to exposure shift, I believe. When using a dial to change the aperture in P mode, the camera behaves exactly as it would in Av mode.

In Av I can use the other wheel for isos and I can't do that on P.

Wit Av and Tv or TAv you can force 2 settings (like Av and Isos, Tv and isos or Tv and Av) and so the last setting is also completely under your control. You have indeed manual mode level of control with automatic exposure. The only drawback vs manual mode is that you have to set the exposure shift with the proper button instead of controling it directly. For me this is more a feature through.

With P, Av and Tv settings for the wheel, you really control only one setting and let the camera control the 2 others automatically. You can't force as easily say a slow apperture and fast shutter speed because it what you need and get the iso up or do the reverse force a somewhat slow shutter speed to lower the isos...

bdery · 02-23-2015, 06:48 AM

Originally posted by Nicolas06

In Av I can use the other wheel for isos and I can't do that on P.

Wit Av and Tv or TAv you can force 2 settings (like Av and Isos, Tv and isos or Tv and Av) and so the last setting is also completely under your control. You have indeed manual mode level of control with automatic exposure. The only drawback vs manual mode is that you have to set the exposure shift with the proper button instead of controling it directly. For me this is more a feature through.

With P, Av and Tv settings for the wheel, you really control only one setting and let the camera control the 2 others automatically. You can't force as easily say a slow apperture and fast shutter speed because it what you need and get the iso up or do the reverse force a somewhat slow shutter speed to lower the isos...

You can use manual ISO any time you want.

We're mostly saying the same thing ni different words, though. I'm not saying buttons are always identical. I'm saying the way the camera processes exposure is the same.

02-20-2015, 04:57 AM	#1
Alcazar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Stuttgart, Germany Posts: 210	Doesn't Hyperprogram make Av and Tv redundant? Hey there, i'm a manual shooter myself, but i've been wondering why Pentax keeps the Av and Tv modes on the mode dial... do they give any advantage over simply using Hyperprogram? Micha / Alcazar

02-20-2015, 12:10 PM	#12
Nicolas06 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 4,854	Originally posted by bdery Of course if you change how the dials operate... you're not talking about the same thing anymore. The OP wasn't referring to exposure shift, I believe. When using a dial to change the aperture in P mode, the camera behaves exactly as it would in Av mode. In Av I can use the other wheel for isos and I can't do that on P. Wit Av and Tv or TAv you can force 2 settings (like Av and Isos, Tv and isos or Tv and Av) and so the last setting is also completely under your control. You have indeed manual mode level of control with automatic exposure. The only drawback vs manual mode is that you have to set the exposure shift with the proper button instead of controling it directly. For me this is more a feature through. With P, Av and Tv settings for the wheel, you really control only one setting and let the camera control the 2 others automatically. You can't force as easily say a slow apperture and fast shutter speed because it what you need and get the iso up or do the reverse force a somewhat slow shutter speed to lower the isos... Last edited by Nicolas06; 02-20-2015 at 12:16 PM.

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02-20-2015, 05:04 AM	#2
elektrolitr Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Riga Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 47	I use Av mode and customized front dial to change Exposure compensation (without pressing EV button) And I sometimes use P mode (with program line set to MTF priority) when using non-fixed aperture zooms

02-20-2015, 05:05 AM	#3
Al_Kahollick Banned Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 390	Well, for one thing, Tv and Av maintain your settings when your camera is turned off. In P mode, they revert back to the "auto/green mode" setting.

02-20-2015, 05:39 AM	#4
Stone G. Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: North Zealand, Denmark Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,516	Originally posted by Alcazar Av and Tv modes on the mode dial... do they give any advantage over simply using Hyperprogram? Yes they do. Hyperprogram does a "best guess" what will be the optimum exposure settings for you. In Tv and Av mode (and don't forget Tav mode) you are in control and can choose, for example, aperture according to light available and DOF desired or exposure time according to movements of your subject. The very nice thing about Pentax P-mode is that with the right menu settings you can change immediately to Tv or Av mode with a flip of the front- and rear control wheels respectively. Thus, one may use P as one's "ever-ready mode".

02-20-2015, 05:44 AM	#5
Na Horuk Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Slovenia, probably Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 11,186	Originally posted by Stone G. In Tv and Av mode (and don't forget Tav mode) you are in control and can choose, for example, aperture according to light available and DOF desired or exposure time according to movements of your subject. Yep. If you want slower shutter for some motion blur during panning, or faster shutter to freeze action, or wider or shallower DoF, and so on. Its about control vs. time required. M mode gives you all the control, but takes a bit of time to set up. Sometimes you don't have the time, so you switch to Av, or even P. Auto does everything for you, so it is fastest, but you have almost no control over what it does. The key it so know how it works, so you know if its choices will be acceptable to your needs, or if you need to take more control.

02-20-2015, 06:20 AM	#6
rangercarp Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Southern Michigan Posts: 437	Originally posted by Stone G. The very nice thing about Pentax P-mode is that with the right menu settings you can change immediately to Tv or Av mode with a flip of the front- and rear control wheels respectively. Thus, one may use P as one's "ever-ready mode". What you call "ever-ready" is the hyper-program the OP is referring to. When in P mode, you can adjust the aperture or shutter speed with a twist of the e dial. With this feature, is their any need for true Tv and Av? that is what the OP is asking. I for one often shoot in aperture priority, but I do it with hyper program far more often than with Av. "program" is letting the camera set the aperture and shutter speed. "Hyper-program" is when you adjust the aperture or shutter speed to your desired value while the mode dial is still set to P.

02-20-2015, 06:23 AM	#7
bdery Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Quebec city, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,360	Originally posted by Al_Kahollick Well, for one thing, Tv and Av maintain your settings when your camera is turned off. In P mode, they revert back to the "auto/green mode" setting. That's the main reason I see. That and the fact that people expect these modes to be there. Originally posted by Stone G. Yes they do. Hyperprogram does a "best guess" what will be the optimum exposure settings for you. In Tv and Av mode (and don't forget Tav mode) you are in control and can choose, for example, aperture according to light available and DOF desired or exposure time according to movements of your subject. Hyperprogram works exactly like Tv or Av, depending on which dial you rotate. It is identical.

02-20-2015, 07:34 AM	#8
Stone G. Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: North Zealand, Denmark Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,516	Originally posted by rangercarp "Hyper-program" is when you adjust the aperture or shutter speed to your desired value while the mode dial is still set to P. Originally posted by bdery Hyperprogram works exactly like Tv or Av, depending on which dial you rotate. It is identical Well, maybe this is a matter of (my misconception of) names, but in each mode P, Av, Tv........ you can program the e-dials for a number of different controls. Eg.: in P-mode you many choose between Av/Tv or Exposure/Pshift control while at the same time you can have the e-dials in Av mode programmed to no action/Av or exposure compensation/Av or ISO/Av control etc. (At least, that's what I can do on my K-3). So, whatever, I wouldn't say that 'hyperprogram' makes Av or Tv modes redundant the way Pentax has designed options for e-dial programing?

02-20-2015, 08:14 AM	#9
RMabo Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 845	I find Pentax adoption of P, Av and Tv to be very clever and a nice idea that started so long ago even the Z-1 had it. The novelty is the green button to "reset" the exposure according to choosen program line, so HyP is more flexible than standard Av or Tv, but I really like standard Av and Tv too in combination with ISO-control on the 2nd dial. They all have their purpose, it depends on the situation. It's nice to have those options.

02-20-2015, 08:43 AM - 1 Like	#10
mrNewt Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: ON, RH Posts: 2,181	A lot of things on these new cameras could be considered redundant... the beauty of this is options. Trying to appeal to a lot of users with all kind of habits and preferences is the key to success. From all those options, take what works for you and ignore the rest... unless you need it from time to time.

02-20-2015, 08:56 AM	#11
bdery Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Quebec city, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,360	Originally posted by Stone G. Well, maybe this is a matter of (my misconception of) names, but in each mode P, Av, Tv........ you can program the e-dials for a number of different controls. Of course if you change how the dials operate... you're not talking about the same thing anymore. The OP wasn't referring to exposure shift, I believe. When using a dial to change the aperture in P mode, the camera behaves exactly as it would in Av mode.

02-23-2015, 06:48 AM	#13
bdery Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Quebec city, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,360	Originally posted by Nicolas06 In Av I can use the other wheel for isos and I can't do that on P. Wit Av and Tv or TAv you can force 2 settings (like Av and Isos, Tv and isos or Tv and Av) and so the last setting is also completely under your control. You have indeed manual mode level of control with automatic exposure. The only drawback vs manual mode is that you have to set the exposure shift with the proper button instead of controling it directly. For me this is more a feature through. With P, Av and Tv settings for the wheel, you really control only one setting and let the camera control the 2 others automatically. You can't force as easily say a slow apperture and fast shutter speed because it what you need and get the iso up or do the reverse force a somewhat slow shutter speed to lower the isos... You can use manual ISO any time you want. We're mostly saying the same thing ni different words, though. I'm not saying buttons are always identical. I'm saying the way the camera processes exposure is the same.