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05-25-2015, 08:57 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by tvdtvdtvd Quote
This mentality always perplexes me. Why would anyone choose a DSLR if it's their intent and desire to not change
lenses? Surely there are equally capable cameras that can produce equally excellent pictures without the inherent
drawbacks of a DSLR. There are certainly millions of camera owners like her, who have bought into the myth-conception
that a SLR is the best type of camera and any SLR is better than any non-SLR. And yet they all use their SLR like
a point & shoot. (*)

(*) Yes, a few may fiddle with a setting or three, but most never take the camera out of P mode or touch the AF/MF
button.
You forgot about the part where she loved the pictures she got with it. That's what makes it work. If at some point she see's some pictures she'd like to try and take with some other lenses, maybe she'll reconsider. Until I got my DA 10-17 I always thought "I'd really like a fisheye." based on some really cool images I saw back in the 60s, but, if you haven't seen "that picture" for which you need "that lens" an 18-250 is great option until you do. And maybe you never will. Maybe that camera for every image you want total in your whole life. It is possible that a 24 MP camera with am 18-250 type lens will allow you to completely express your photographic vision. The fact that almost everyone on the forum wants more than that is irrelevant. My friend loves her pictures , proudly share them with her friends and loves bringing her gear with her on walks and outings. For some , it's enough. And I'm not sure that's something I want to be looking down on them for. Everyone finds their own photographic comfort level. As long as she's happy, I'm not recommending anything else for her. If at some point she wants a little more of something, I'll point her in the right direction.

05-25-2015, 09:14 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by sumitkar1971 Quote
fanboy
It works both ways.

Maybe his dream was a rotating touch-screen and a lens he did not have to change (though perhaps ill-suited for his current purpose).
05-25-2015, 09:18 AM   #33
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Pathdoc & Normhead, I do get it. What you both describe is the myth-conception. They have purchased a camera
that >can< do an amazingly diverse range of things even if they don't explore this potential themselves. So then,
why not a high end compact that can also take awesome pictures and do an amazingly diverse range of things
without the disadvantages of bulk and weight that is inherent to the SLR form factor? The potential is still there
to discover the world of photography beyond P&S, and then decide if an SLR is wanted or necessary.
05-25-2015, 09:28 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by tvdtvdtvd Quote
Pathdoc & Normhead, I do get it. What you both describe is the myth-conception. They have purchased a camera
that >can< do an amazingly diverse range of things even if they don't explore this potential themselves. So then,
why not a high end compact that can also take awesome pictures and do an amazingly diverse range of things
without the disadvantages of bulk and weight that is inherent to the SLR form factor? The potential is still there
to discover the world of photography beyond P&S, and then decide if an SLR is wanted or necessary.
It the potential, the realization that if they want to they can teach this camera new tricks. My friend is a research scientist, she is very bright, and very busy. She understands that she can learn a lot more about photography. This is her starting point. If she does it this way, she knows the camera, and only has to learn new lenses. If she goes the bridge camera route, she has to learn a new camera and a new lens every time she takes a step up. It's never a good idea to think you know better than others what they want and why. When I talk to this woman, which tends to be som pretty in depth conversations sitting around a campfire, she knows exactly why she wants this set up, and exactly why right now, she's happy with her choice. And she can articulate her position very clearly.

Maybe you need to sit with someone in that position for a while to get a handle on it. The fact that from your perspective it doesn't make any sense, doesn't mean that from hers, it isn't the most logical decision. I usually go with, it's very rare that I know what's right for someone else, more than they do. I may know more about cameras than my friend, but I'm not smarter than my friend, and she definitely knows what she wants and needs to feel confident, and it's what she bought. It makes her happy, what else can you ask for?

She had $800 to spend on her camera. I would have preferred she buy a Pentax, she would have had more options of photographic expression with a Pentax. Most low end Pentaxes have pretty much the same feature set as the flagship models, and I did try to show her some stuff, it turned out her camera wouldn't do. Damn, Nikon stripped down models. But apart from that, I think she made a great choice. It suits her.


Last edited by normhead; 05-25-2015 at 09:42 AM.
05-25-2015, 10:16 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
My friend is a research scientist, she is very bright, and very busy. She understands that she can learn a lot more about photography.
I'm not questioning your friend's intelligence, only her rationale for a large, bulky tool when something much more practical
will more than suffice. What you are saying is that it makes her happy. Fair enough. That is an answer and a valid one
at that, albeit an irrational answer. And I do still think it's an aspect of the myth-conception. It's akin to the city dwelling,
apartment living software engineer who drives a F-350 because he might someday purchase a house in the country to
which he might someday need to haul 1/2 ton of gravel. But he's happy.
05-25-2015, 10:37 AM   #36
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In situations like that I usually listen. It's usually an entry Nikon...Canon DSLR the newbie has...I tell them they're good cameras (which they are) and let them know (if they're not already aware) that the Nikon/Canon systems are excellent .

Most of them don't know about Pentax . I don't say much about Pentax...other than it's a camera system I've used since 1968 and continue to use as I'm happy with Pentax equipment.
05-25-2015, 10:39 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by tvdtvdtvd Quote
I'm not questioning your friend's intelligence, only her rationale for a large, bulky tool when something much more practical
will more than suffice. What you are saying is that it makes her happy. Fair enough. That is an answer and a valid one
at that, albeit an irrational answer. And I do still think it's an aspect of the myth-conception. It's akin to the city dwelling,
apartment living software engineer who drives a F-350 because he might someday purchase a house in the country to
which he might someday need to haul 1/2 ton of gravel. But he's happy.
She finds her D5200 neither large nor bulky, in fact one of her rationales was that it's a small camera and it fits her small hands really nicely. She prefers it to a smaller camera. And really, I also included the rational parts of her argument as well. You just chose to gloss over them.

As I said, it's never smart to second guess some else's decision. We always think we can see things others can't, but nine times out of 10, we just aren't seeing it from their perspective. It's not winning odds, if you're playing poker. My daughter bought a cheaper Canon DSLR because she got it second hand for a great price from a friend she knew took care of it. She never changes the lens either. She's an engineer. She knows what she wants and she's feisty. If I were you I wouldn't be telling her she should have bought something else, she'll rip your head off.

Everyone wants to be the smart guy that can second guess everyone else. But, most of the time, it's a losing hand you deal yourself.
05-25-2015, 10:53 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by tvdtvdtvd Quote
her rationale for a large, bulky tool when something much more practical will more than suffice.
The rationale could well be that she's not buying a tool to do a task; she's buying access to a system which not only met her photographic needs when she bought it but is capable of expansion to meet almost any potential future photographic needs, even if she could not then predict and still cannot predict what those might be. Depending on what sort of research she does, normhead might for example one day find himself fielding questions from her on the best type of macro lens to buy.

I once bought myself a tool to do a task and soon found myself regretting it. When unfortunate circumstances (theft) forced me to replace it, I accordingly bought into a system. A subsequent replacement body and several lenses later, I'm still using (and expanding on) that system today.

05-25-2015, 10:54 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by lesmore49 Quote
In situations like that I usually listen. It's usually an entry Nikon...Canon DSLR the newbie has...I tell them they're good cameras (which they are) and let them know (if they're not already aware) that the Nikon/Canon systems are excellent .

Most of them don't know about Pentax . I don't say much about Pentax...other than it's a camera system I've used since 1968 and continue to use as I'm happy with Pentax equipment.
I would never punish anyone to getting involved in Pentax unless, they're good at researching their equipment on line, have enough faith the purchase gear on line with the advice of the Forum, can live buying their stuff unseen and have the ability to come on here and beg for help if they have a problem, unless they happen to live near one of the few Pentax brick and mortar retailers. Right now, I'd love to go to a store and try out a DA*200 ƒ2.8 a DA*300 ƒ4 bs ab FDA 150-450 and 70-200. Because those lenses interest me. I was counting on Henry's exposure and Pentax bringing the lenses... but they didn't hold a photo show this year. Henry's solution? Order all 4 of them, click on the pick up at store option, drive 2.5 hours to Barrie, their closest store, pick the one I want, return the others. Now all I need to do is up my credit limit to over $10,000.

Long story short... it's not going to happen. If someone was interested in a K-3 or K-5 I'd let them play with mine, but there's a limit to what I can offer people. I love my Pentax gear, but honestly, acquiring it has been an ordeal, and I couldn't have done it if like les.. I hadn't been a Pentax user for almost 50 years, and understood the business.

To me, one of the most important parts of a purchase is the feel of the item in my hand. Pentax isn't kind to people like me.
05-25-2015, 10:57 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tony Belding Quote
But if you have a Q, you can take ALL the lenses!
and the whole kit will fit in THIS...

Outdoor Products Large Watertight Dry Box, Orange - Walmart.com

(6.75 x 8.0 x 4.0 )

Which is what I have almost my entire QS1 kit in, including foam, desiccant, extra batteries and the 2 adapters, everything I might need save for the 2 battery chargers. I don't usually put those in the dry box. I have the original in my chargers box labeled "Q" charger. The other one which is better, no long cord, that is in one of the organizer pockets in my purse to take along if I need to. The box fits neatly in my purse inside the middle of the purse organizer and I think weighs about as much as my emergency makeup kit. I chose this dry box so I could just keep the Q and lenses in my purse all the time and not have to put it all back in one of my ammo boxes at night. The orange is a bit day glo but that's okay. It works, that's all that matters....
05-25-2015, 11:09 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
If I were you I wouldn't be telling her she should have bought something else, she'll rip your head off.
Careful; you're putting words in my mouth that I didn't say. I would never tell her what to do, even if I would question
why she did what she did. Significant difference. I am legitimately curious as to why people do what they do, even
when I consider they're choice 'irrational'. Call it the joy of the debate.

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Everyone wants to be the smart guy that can second guess everyone else.
"Question Everything." Advice received in my Junior year at college from the head of my department. Best
advice I've ever heard and the core of my philosophy to life. Not judgement. Curiosity.
05-25-2015, 11:18 AM   #42
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Ya, I know, you didn't say that , but I did. It wasn't pleasant. All I said was "Why did you get that camera." and holy mackerel...

So question everything... but maybe not my daughter.



She's the one on the left holding my grand daughter... she's so sweet looking, who'd ever guess?
05-25-2015, 11:35 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
All I said was "Why did you get that camera." and holy mackerel...

So question everything... but maybe not my daughter.
Well, I didn't say it was a foolproof philosophy without potential hazards... Loyal Commiseration
and Unquestioning Affirmation are also popular philosophies and they can clash with 'Question
Everything'.
05-25-2015, 11:42 AM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
she's so sweet looking, who'd ever guess?
Your daughter does not look fierce enough in that picture to tear anyone's head off. Your grand-daughter is quite another matter. I'd be wary there.

QuoteOriginally posted by tvdtvdtvd Quote
"Question Everything." Advice received in my Junior year at college from the head of my department. Best advice I've ever heard and the core of my philosophy to life. Not judgement. Curiosity.
Unfortunately, the reductio ad absurdum of this position is nothing short of unhealthy. Applied uncritically and outside the confines of the scientific method, it constitutes neither non-judgementalism nor curiosity but an almost nihilistic level of moral and intellectual relativism that can be dangerous if practised by anyone in a position of authority.
05-25-2015, 11:43 AM   #45
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I've been communicating with a Canon user for months. He was very impressed with my K-3 at ISO 1600 when I sent him an unedited jpeg. Some lenses will give you more noise than others and I think the reason for that is T stops. I think Canon images tend to have a certain nice quality to them. Their lens selection is excellent.

I agree, let them think what they want but try to see reality as it really is. They have very good autofocus capabilities. There is no arguing that. This is very important for wildlife photography. I think the Sony sensors are superior and I had another Canon guy admit that to me. It is refreshing to hear honesty and I tend to keep my distance from fake people.
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