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06-12-2008, 07:20 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I stopped to help a friend who had pulled to the side of the road in the rain. She was trying to find the wiper switch on her new SUV.

I got in and opened the glove box, pulled out the manual, and she actually said, "What is that?"
I work as a mechanic for a trucking fleet. I once had a driver write up his rig for a "bad air leak when I step on the brake". I found the truck with only the red emergency line hooked to his trailer and his service brake line and also his light cord dragging on the ground. This is common stuff these days. Nobody wants to take the time to learn anything. They would rather complain that something is no good or broke.

06-12-2008, 07:30 AM   #17
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As they say in IT support....

QuoteOriginally posted by magnum1 Quote
Hi gang,

Listen, I will never profess to be an expert. FAR from it. I just can't get over the complaints by people about the K20 (Which I don't own), and before that the K10 (Which I do own). I cannot believe that Pentax has that many off quality units out there. They make Hi-quality medical imaging equipment for gods sake! Like I said, I am not an expert, but sometimes I think some people just like to buy the latest and greatest without even understanding the basics of "Prosumer" type cameras. Some are so used to Presets they blame the camera instead of the user. They also tend to not even look at the manual.

Anyway, enough ranting. I just think there are many people who just need to do some homework and quit looking for quick fixes on a forum.

I feel better now!
Its either hardware, software or meatware. And its usually meatware.

(eg. the m*ron operating the computer)
06-12-2008, 07:30 AM   #18
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This is a common problem with all consumer electronics/computers/technology tools. How many people did you know who couldn't set the clock on their VCR? As the price for DSLR's keeps coming down and new models introduced with more and more features, many people who just want to have the latest toys will buy them and basically use them as advanced point and shoots.

Most DSLR owners (and this is a broad generalization on my part) would be better suited for a 6-8 MP camera with limited options and mutilple scene modes. A model like this would get crushed by all the so called 'expert' reviewers. So they continue to add features, showcase the improvements, and continue to attract buyers who want the latest most feature laden models.

I don't know if there's a point to this rant, but I just wanted to add my comments.
06-12-2008, 08:11 AM   #19
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Yes, rants.

QuoteOriginally posted by magnum1 Quote
I think some people just like to buy the latest and greatest without even understanding the basics of "Prosumer" type cameras. Some are so used to Presets they blame the camera instead of the user. They also tend to not even look at the manual.
There is nothing wrong to use presets and auto everything. At least it is just a matter of choice. If the camera is capable to do its job accurately (and correctly), good results should be obtained if it is instructed to do so appropriately.

But if just in case its auto features are not so reliable or capable, or as reliable or capable, that would be another story.

QuoteQuote:
Anyway, enough ranting. I just think there are many people who just need to do some homework and quit looking for quick fixes on a forum.
How about for users who have encountered problems in the field and have already studied the manual and *still* don't find the answer (and thus needed to seek for assistance)? The forum is a place for such knowledge and experience sharing afterall (not just solely for "praising" IMHO)..

06-12-2008, 08:39 AM   #20
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I read the manual and its home is in the bag....as well as the manual for the flash unit.

I came home yesterday and my wife was using (for the first time) the new camera. She asks me "why does it take it so long to actually take the picture?"

The last time I had used it was on a tripod so the camera was still set to the 2sec. delay.....lol. I fixed it for her (no I didn't need the manual for that one).
06-12-2008, 09:09 AM   #21
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I'm not saying that sometimes a particular item(whatever it may be) doesn't leave any factory without problems, but I sometimes hear people complain about FF/BF issues, when they didn't use a tripod or flash, or they focused, the camera locked focus, and then the camera to subject distance changed for whatever reason and then they released the shutter. "Hey my pictures are blurry, I'll search the web for my problem", and lo and behold, "hey, here's the problem, my camera has FF/BF issues", when it really didn't. But then they download the firmware that lets them adjust for FF/BF, they get it all out of whack, so now focus is always off, and then it's: "what a real piece of junk".

As far as auto settings go, I don't have a problem with people using auto settings, and I do myself from time to time, but no matter how good a camera (or anything else is), it's important to have some understanding of what auto is doing. It's sort of difficult to make something foolproof, since there isn't any way to make a foolproof fool. I bet that I can take any camera (Canon, Nikon, Sony, Pentax, whatever) that is working to factory spec, and make it under or over expose, make images that are blurry or out-of-focus, etc.

As far as helping people goes, I don't mind trying to help people, except in a couple of cases:
- When I become a crutch. I used to work with a guy that made the same salary I did, had the same job title, etc. We were programmers, and whenever he ran into something he had a question about, he came to my office. Now, help was context-sensitive and he could've just pressed the F1 key on his keyboard, but instead he would NOT consult any documentation for anything, he would interrupt my work, so that I could find something he could have easily located. So now I have to not only do his research for him, but I'm falling behind on my schedules while I'm doing it. So I quit helping. The only way I learned the material was by investing my time reading and studying, I probably bought a book so I invested some money as well, maybe I spent some money on a class. I don't mind helping a little, but unless you're willing to invest some effort of your own, I will quickly tire of it. Take a class, buy a book, invest some effort, that's how I learn things, and it will be a good way to get a better understanding. I know it's time consuming and boring, but it's still the best way to obtain the knowledge you desire. As far as cameras go, most of the people that worked at the camera store weren't interested in photography, so if someone had a question, they came to me to find an answer, and if you're the askee, that gets old quick.

- If you don't understand the PFM* that you're using and ask for my help, you don't get to argue with me. If you have so much knowledge that you feel that you know more about something than I do, then you don't need my help with it. If you ask for my help and you think I'm wrong, that's fine, don't do what I tell you, I don't mind, but let me finish and then go away and do something else(or just go away and do something else without letting me finish, I don't care, keeping in mind that if you don't do what I told you, I won't let you blame me for your problem not being fixed, nor will I help you anymore). But as soon as you start arguing with me, my help for you on that particular subject ends, forever. And if you have a habit of breaking things or fouling them up and then arguing with me about something you don't understand, I will soon quit helping you with anything. I have better things to do with my time than argue about something that isn't really my problem to deal with anyway. I'm don't consider myself an expert about anything(except for maybe foolish people, I seem to have a great deal of experience with them). If you're ego needs the boost, go find another expert like yourself to argue with.

Aaaagh! Another rant! I must stop ranting!!

*- Pure freekin' magic
06-12-2008, 10:45 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ben_Edict Quote
Whenever a friend asks me something specific about his/her camera, I recommend, that they look it up in the manual, as I cannot know each and any camera inside out. Usually their reply is, that they never read the manual, because its too big and too tedious to do so. Instead they find it easier to steal my time with questions, they could get answered in a minute. Especially the recent Pentax manuals (for the K10 and K20) are very good and clear and touch even more obscure aspects of the cameras.

I have no problem helping people with questions, that arise during using a camera or with equipment or for a special shooting occasion. But I am pretty annoyed if people tell me, they don't even bother investing the time for reading, but wait a week instead, until they can bother me!
Such is the primary reason I long ago quit the English teaching racket which is the most common employment for people in my situation: I have a very low tolerance for people who expect me to care more about their problem and put more effort into it than they do themselves.....a condition which is rampant among the students.

I have a strong distaste for the people who openly proclaim that they just can't be bothered with taking the minimum self-help steps of using a manual or some existing learning materials. If they've used them and had trouble understanding them....fine. I'm willing to help clarify things. If they tell me they expect us to get carpal tunnel syndrome by individually re-inventing the instructional wheel for them because they just can't be bothered....then they can kiss my rosy red butt.
06-12-2008, 05:29 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
...the manual is written by engineers who describe what each button does, (sometimes poorly) but rarely explains why you would push that button.
That's a real problem, I read that you should be in this mode for that situation. Okay fine, but why? And what happens if I'm not?

Same for my Panny video cam, different modes for different situations, but it doesn't say what each mode does differently.

06-12-2008, 07:36 PM   #24
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I read something on Gizmodo or Engadget (one of the gadget sites) that said that something like 85% of all returned gadgets worked perfectly fine. Meaning either someone bought it to try out and then returned it, or someone bought it, didn't read the manual or specs and figured it was broken and returned it.

Given my good luck at buying refurbished items, I can believe it.
06-13-2008, 03:13 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by rfortson Quote
I read something on Gizmodo or Engadget (one of the gadget sites) that said that something like 85% of all returned gadgets worked perfectly fine. Meaning either someone bought it to try out and then returned it, or someone bought it, didn't read the manual or specs and figured it was broken and returned it.

Given my good luck at buying refurbished items, I can believe it.
That is true for cameras, too. I spoke to a service guy from Olympus several years ago at a Photokina and he toold me, that more than 80 % of all cameras sent in for repair simply needed a new battery. Most people did not even realise, there was a battery inside the Oly…

I know the same from electric shavers. A service guy from AEG once told, that more than 70 % of all electric shavers sent in for repair, needed simply cleaning out the accumulated shavings… Something most of us will do without questioning, but not the the majority of the non-technically-inclined people. You can imagine, thaat the service-engineer job for the shaver department was a highly unpopular job…

Needless to say, that Oly camera manuals mention to replace batteries and shaver manuals explain in detail, how to clean the shaver after every use.

Ben
06-13-2008, 05:46 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by Arpe Quote
That's a real problem, I read that you should be in this mode for that situation. Okay fine, but why? And what happens if I'm not?

Same for my Panny video cam, different modes for different situations, but it doesn't say what each mode does differently.
This is something that I'm not sure I can tell you. Here's an example:

What white balance setting do you use for outside during the day?

This seems like a simple question, and on the surface it is. But the actual answer is: "It depends." I have intentionally adjusted white balance sometimes to a setting that would be wholly inappropriate, given the "normal" guidelines, but I did it intentionally because I wanted a particular look for the image that I was trying to create/capture using the camera. So some settings require some knowledge by experimentation. Unless the plan is to simply try to exactly copy something someone else has done. Here's another example:

What shutter speed should I use to shoot my child playing sports?

Again, it seems like such a simple question. But the answer is: "It depends." Do you want to freeze the movement? Or do you want to capture some blur to enhance the feeling of motion? To freeze the action you would want to stay near the higher shutter speeds such as 1/500 or shorter. To capture an image that suggest movement with some blur, you will probably need to experiment a little, probably starting at 1/60 or less and moving down. Maybe the image that you want will need a shutter speed of 1/15 or 1/8, but I can't tell you that, not because I don't want to help, but because what I want from an image may not be what you want from an image. Unfortunately there isn't anyway that I can tell someone what they want, or even knowing what they want, I'm not sure if I told them "Set ISO to 200, aperture to f8 and shutter speed to 1/8, then frame with the subject 2.5 centimeters from the left edge of the viewfinder and pan from right to left at a rate of 50 cm/sec" that it would actually be the most pleasing way to capture the image. (This is of course all made up in my head)
Unfortunately, I think this is what most people want to hear, but it isn't always simple. And the other problem is, sometimes the answer is simple.
Here's one I got in the camera store frequently, I think most people who have worked in a camera store will be familiar with it.

"There is something wrong with my camera, why won't it turn on?"

Usually it WAS batteries. Except for the one's who dropped theirs in the lake or ocean. Occasionally it was something that had broken, but this was fairly rare.

BTW: I saw the Nikon/AK/D60 commercial last night, and I started wondering how many people are going to rush out and buy the D60, and then be disappointed with the photos they have because they were out of range of the flash, or they didn't have a fast enough shutter speed or the white balance got thrown off or one of the myriad other things that has to be considered...
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