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06-11-2008, 07:23 PM   #1
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Are some people over buying?

Hi gang,

Listen, I will never profess to be an expert. FAR from it. I just can't get over the complaints by people about the K20 (Which I don't own), and before that the K10 (Which I do own). I cannot believe that Pentax has that many off quality units out there. They make Hi-quality medical imaging equipment for gods sake! Like I said, I am not an expert, but sometimes I think some people just like to buy the latest and greatest without even understanding the basics of "Prosumer" type cameras. Some are so used to Presets they blame the camera instead of the user. They also tend to not even look at the manual.

Anyway, enough ranting. I just think there are many people who just need to do some homework and quit looking for quick fixes on a forum.

I feel better now!

06-11-2008, 08:18 PM   #2
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QuoteOriginally posted by magnum1 Quote

They also tend to not even look at the manual.
I stopped to help a friend who had pulled to the side of the road in the rain. She was trying to find the wiper switch on her new SUV.

I got in and opened the glove box, pulled out the manual, and she actually said, "What is that?"
06-11-2008, 08:52 PM   #3
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When I got my K20D I read the manual front to back. Reading a manual can't always clarify an issue for some people. They either don't understand the concept or have trouble making sense of it.

Sometimes it is easier to go direct to other users who are more proficient with the unit for answers than try to wrap your head around it alone.
06-11-2008, 09:02 PM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by NicholasN Quote
When I got my K20D I read the manual front to back. Reading a manual can't always clarify an issue for some people. They either don't understand the concept or have trouble making sense of it.

Sometimes it is easier to go direct to other users who are more proficient with the unit for answers than try to wrap your head around it alone.
I carry the manuals for all my photo gear in my backpack. I still have, and carry, the manuals for my SF-1, my MZ-S, and of course, my K10D. I also carry the manual for the AF500FTZ flash and a few other things. I don't have an eidetic memory - far from it (what's my name again) so I keep the manuals handy.

06-11-2008, 09:25 PM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by magnum1 Quote
Hi gang,

Listen, I will never profess to be an expert. FAR from it. I just can't get over the complaints by people about the K20 (Which I don't own), and before that the K10 (Which I do own). I cannot believe that Pentax has that many off quality units out there. They make Hi-quality medical imaging equipment for gods sake! Like I said, I am not an expert, but sometimes I think some people just like to buy the latest and greatest without even understanding the basics of "Prosumer" type cameras. Some are so used to Presets they blame the camera instead of the user. They also tend to not even look at the manual.

Anyway, enough ranting. I just think there are many people who just need to do some homework and quit looking for quick fixes on a forum.

I feel better now!
I'm sure "they" do....not that I ever would....

Its a tough call because generally people are well intentioned when they set out to buy a camera, car or widgit. The sales person is going to do their best to get you to spend more, or buy a higher spec. So as a part of your homework you visit places like this seeking information, but again people will reccommend the higher spec eg) K20D over K200D. Very easy to get confused in the process.

It then gets worse if people buy dslr's without fully appreciating what they are buying into and expect National Geographic type shots. They generally get a bit grumpy at that point and start blaming the camera.

But, for the person who genuinley wants to have a go, the dslr learning is steep, but very rewarding.
06-11-2008, 10:20 PM   #6
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My K10D had serious focusing issues when I bought it. I was able to fix it myself though by installing an obscure firmware upgrade known as "the tripod".
06-11-2008, 10:48 PM   #7
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Mallee Boy "But, for the person who genuinley wants to have a go, the dslr learning is steep, but very rewarding."

I have to agree with the above quotation. I also have to agree with carrying the owner's manual. Two weeks ago, hiking/camping the mountains of Maine & New Hampshire, I carried, in a plastic sealed bag, the owners manual with me for the K20. But I enjoy the rewards which come from a mind engaged with text; but, many people like to learn hands on. Also, issues arise which the manual doesn't touch upon. This is what makes photography an art--you can not become an artist from reading an owner's manual.

Canada Rockies, thanks for the choice of "eidetic" here--absolutely perfect--reminds me why I came to this forum--to learn. Thanks for firing some neurons for me--I went to the online dictionary----

Regards,

Ernest


"Who looks outside,
dreams; who looks
inside, awakens
"

Carl Jung (1875-1961)
06-12-2008, 01:40 AM   #8
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Hi,

I have an *istD and a K10D, one was second hand with no manual, the other new with a Japanese manual. I have downloaded the manuals from the Pentax website but that means they are not always available when required.

I have read them extensivly but often am supprised whan I find something in the camera that I later find in black and white in the manual that I either missed or forgot.

Peoples camera useage also changes, with different situations and with buying extra kit. There is nothing in the manuals about using extension tubes for example.

The upshot is that I am more than happy to share any nuggets with people on this site, and I will be more than happy to glean any nuggets rom other people here

I think we all are.

Bill

06-12-2008, 04:56 AM   #9
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I agree, close this forum and all other fora. Lets all go back to Reading.
But for those of us (read ME, MYSELF and I) with a thick skull fora like this comes in handy and sometimes a life-saver.

I still cannot understand the programme feature of the istD - after all these years.

Oooopah
06-12-2008, 05:27 AM   #10
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Overbuying or overselling?

While it is true that people are overbuying, or perhaps to be fair buying in anticipation of future capabilities (as a photographer) are camera companies also guilty of overselling?

Maybe that is a little unfair, but the price differential between prosumer and amature cameras is reduced to a point where many people go for the top instantly.

For most amatures, the origonal 6MP cameras would be considered adaquate in terms of performance and what they photograph, but we are in a technology race, and performance is rapidly outstripping the needs of most photographers.

WHile I am glad for this, as it brings capabilities within reach that previously did not exist, it also accelerates confusion.

Some have preached "read the manual" and this is good, but unfortunately the manual is written by engineers who describe what each button does, (sometimes poorly) but rarely explains why you would push that button.

I think people need to step back and read a book any book on general photography. Learn about all the technical aspects, at least a little. Generally this will lead to much more rewarding time taking pictures.
06-12-2008, 05:46 AM   #11
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FWIW, here's what I think.

Buying/selling cameras is just like buying/selling cars.

Each new model year brings with it new innovations and new trinkets and toys.

And, the more they stuff in and the more we want them to stuff in creates more things to go wrong.

Pentax is certainly not the only brand of camera that has experienced problems. If you go to the C or N forums, you'll find the same thing. I think that even
Leica had some major problems with one of its offering a while back.

I also sometimes think that these forums may cause there to be more problems with cameras than actually exist. ie: A guy has a camera for six months and is very happy with it. Someone suggests that there might be a problem with x or y. The guys says to himself, "I wonder if my camera is doing that too." So, he creates the most adverse condition in which to shoot and, sure enough, it's there. Or, at least he thinks it is.

Now, I'm not saying that Pentax, or any other brand, is problem free, I just think that there are more "supposed" problems than there are "actual" problems.

My $ .02


addendum

All of this, of course, from probably the least adept and least talented picture taker here.

06-12-2008, 06:02 AM   #12
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Ed

you make a good point.

I guess the real problem with any forum, is the distinguishing between
- those reporting conditions which are brought about due to difficult (but perhaps not understod by the poster) photographic conditions
- those who report problems due to their own errors and kick off long threads where the OP never returns after starting a firestorm
- those reporting persistant performance issues, such as exposure errors with certain lenses, where the real message should be undewrstand how your equipment works
- those who report real hardware faults whether it be due to lenses, memory cards or cameras, and quality
- and those who report on features not there, and claim the camera deficient because of it.

every one is entitled to their own $.02, and it leads to many negative comments.
It is hard to get a real objective overview of the cameras and accessories because everyone has their own "perspective" as to whether the product is good or bad.
06-12-2008, 06:04 AM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
Some have preached "read the manual" and this is good, but unfortunately the manual is written by engineers who describe what each button does, (sometimes poorly) but rarely explains why you would push that button.
I have this problem with software manuals at work. Nortel is particularly bad with this; unless you know why you would use an option you are out of luck.

Sometimes you just need to share experiences with others in the same situation.
06-12-2008, 07:02 AM   #14
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I think part of the problem is the amplifying power of the web, and the difficulty many people seem to have with thinking clearly. There are people who don't possess nearly as much knowledge as they presume, and there's the root of the problem.

Someone posts about their K10D underexposing, maybe it was, maybe it wasn't, but it doesn't matter after that. Maybe they looked at the image only on the K10D screen, but they forgot that they had read somewhere(on the internet) to make the battery last longer you can crank the screen brightness down, so they did. And now their K10D is underexposing. Oh it's not really, but the images look dark on the review screen. Worse yet, the same or similar befuddled thinking individual cranks the AEC up to make the images brighter, and when they copy the .jpegs to their pc, or print them at a kiosk, the images are now all overexposed. They now say, "What a crummy dslr, a piece of junk, wish I had bought something else." And their outrage at being cheated gets posted somewhere in a forum. And their brother in law, who bought a Nikon D40, explains that if they had just bought a Nikon D40 they would have been better off. So they get rid of their camera, buy a D40. And since they haven't had as much time to spend with it, or reading about it on the web, they don't fiddle with it, and they get well-exposed images. So hey Nikon is better(or Canon or whatever). They then post this and tell everyone they know about their experience with this or that crummy thing, despite their deep involvement in the failure of the technology.

Now, someone else sees the post and thinks "I'm going to see if my K100D is faulty and underexposing. I haven't used it in 3 months, but I happened across a "fact" (which doesn't mean that much in terms of the web), that Pentaxes underexpose." So they take some test shots, upload them to their pc and because they turned the brightness and contrast down on their monitor (to prevent monitor burn in) in between the last photo they took and now, it looks like the images are underexposed. So they post about it on a forum. They sell their K100D, buy a Canon XT like the guy in the camera shop told them, and without their knowledge a spouse or child has cranked the monitor's brightness and contrast back up in the interim, and when they upload the test shots from XT, now they look ok. Obviously the Pentax was the problem, right?

Now other folks read these posts and better yet, repeat the myths around the web. And in camera and electronic stores across the world, myth becomes fact, especially in the minds of the people who are certain that since Ashton Kutcher "uses" a Nikon, or since they see Canon banners at ball game, those are the brands to own. And they post such nonsense on a forum, about how if you want to shoot like the pros, get a Canon and Canon lenses, because they are "superior". Despite the fact that the pros they saw at the ball game are NOT using a Rebel XT with kit lens, again it doesn't matter. Benjikan mentioned in another thread about the mythology that has to be created when brand building, and he's right, and Canon and Nikon do this well.

BTW I don't necessarily think Canon and Nikon don't make good equipment, I just think that most of their lower-end gear(my price range in other words) is not worth the money they charge for it. Was the K10D a "better" camera than the D200? I'm not sure I would say "better", but it can produce images that are as good, it has most of the features, and it comes with a reasonable price tag. What about the D80 or the 30D? They're fine, but they are still ridiculously priced for what you get. Lenses and accessories are pretty much the same. I was amazed at how much camera you get for your money with the K10D(and I suspect the K20D and K200D are the same), how flash you get when you buy the AF360FGZ, how much lens the DA* 16-50 offers for the money, etc. But then I'm not brand conscious, although I've used Canon and Sony DSLR gear and Nikon 35mm gear.

And sales people overselling customers only makes the problem worse. I used to work part-time in a camera store, and my big criteria for selling people something was what fit their needs and would make them happy. I took the long view that when they were ready to buy something else they would come back and talk to me. And they did. I don't recall a single customer that came back, displeased with what I had recommended to them, and that was personally satisfying as well. And although it wasn't my main reason to not cheat people, I also didn't have to live in fear that a customer would come ranting back through the front-door looking for me, the guy that cheated him. There were salesmen that I worked with that only sold the equipment that they made the most commission on, which also made the problem worse, because some of them would tell a customer anything to get them to walk out with a high-commission item. It was one of the problems with allowing manufacturers to promote their equipment by paying incentives to salespeople, or even stores trying to move gear by paying incentives.

Please pardon what has turned into a major rant, I have to end it now before it keeps going on.
06-12-2008, 07:04 AM   #15
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Whenever a friend asks me something specific about his/her camera, I recommend, that they look it up in the manual, as I cannot know each and any camera inside out. Usually their reply is, that they never read the manual, because its too big and too tedious to do so. Instead they find it easier to steal my time with questions, they could get answered in a minute. Especially the recent Pentax manuals (for the K10 and K20) are very good and clear and touch even more obscure aspects of the cameras.

I have no problem helping people with questions, that arise during using a camera or with equipment or for a special shooting occasion. But I am pretty annoyed if people tell me, they don't even bother investing the time for reading, but wait a week instead, until they can bother me!

In forums not only the quality of the answers, but also the quality of the questions varies widely. But I am free to select, whether I want to be bothers or not. In that way, I find the few forums I participate actively (with/in/?? - what's the correct article here?) very intersting and learn something myself - sometimes even from the pure question, as it sometimes can stimulate some (re)thinking.

Ben
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