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07-02-2015, 06:30 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I still haven't decided what I'm going to do about the FF but I'd buy either an APSc or FF K-mount mirrorless (as above) sight-unseen.
If it had a 645z-style tilting rear-screen (as well as EVF, PDAF on the sensor, and weather sealing), I'd certainly buy that in APS-C too! Probably not in full-frame though - just a tad expensive for me. That being said, I don't think we should hold our breadth for such a camera to be released...

07-02-2015, 06:36 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Doundounba Quote
If it had a 645z-style tilting rear-screen
I think that would be a given . . . . .
07-02-2015, 06:58 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by Doundounba Quote
If it had a 645z-style tilting rear-screen (as well as EVF, PDAF on the sensor, and weather sealing), I'd certainly buy that in APS-C too! Probably not in full-frame though - just a tad expensive for me. That being said, I don't think we should hold our breadth for such a camera to be released...
Eventually, Pentax will have to retest the waters with a larger sensored mirrorless camera. It seems more likely that they would keep the k mount than just ditch the whole thing.

I do doubt they would ask Marc Newsom to contribute to the project, though.
07-02-2015, 08:22 PM - 2 Likes   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Eventually, Pentax will have to retest the waters with a larger sensored mirrorless camera. It seems more likely that they would keep the k mount than just ditch the whole thing.

I do doubt they would ask Marc Newsom to contribute to the project, though.
They simply need to produce a mirrorless LX style body with a FF sensor like the A7rII. That give you the lenses and the 399 AF points. They have to have a high end EVF. If Fuji won't make a FF retro body, then Ricoh should step in and take that spot in the market.

07-03-2015, 02:23 AM   #20
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I do most of my shooting off a tripod using LiveView anyway, so the 399 point AF sensor based system would be a plus for me. Also, the base technology of a BSI sensor has a few pluses. One being that the light would not need to go through the metal wiring grid of the chip (a constraint), and hit the light sensor directly (thus having a relatively larger area). The second one, is with the circuitry underneath the sensor, the actual light sensing part of the pixel are either closer together, or a bit larger in sensing area (relative to the actual area of the pixel). A third is that the pixel's well geometry is deeper, which enhances dynamic range, while reducing noise. Deeper wells also helps with the darker red color to IR wavelengths. See the figures in (especially the 4th gen description along with figures 4 & 5)...So, right now, the best Pentax has access to is 3rd generation (K3). BSI is a 6th generation sensor. The 4th, 5th and 6th generation sensors, are what has given the smart phone cameras their better image quality for such a small sensor and optical lens. This should all now be available to Pentax in an SLR form factor.

If the new FF body has access to the BSI 6th generation sensor - as has been rumored, and the new ASP-C also gets a BSI based sensor, then there will be an open question of how much of the FF advances over the K3/K3II is sensor size (FF) alone, as opposed to the IQ enhancements of BSI. With my recent lens purchases (ASP-C limited 18-35, 60-250), I have somewhat limited (by choice) to ASP-c. So, the new K3 replacement with a 6th gen BSI sensor is my obvious choice. In addition the FF body will act as a price ceiling on the new ASP-c body - making it more affordable. It has been said that the FF segment of the market is about 10%. So, most of us will stay with the ASP-C form factor.

I am looking forward to having a tilt out screen, given that Pentax has done a piss poor job of anything remotely looking like an actual tethered capability with any real functionality. That is just plain inexcusable. It's not rocket science.

The real constraint that I am sensing on FF in terms of price, is not Canon and Nikon FF models, but used 645Ds. I see in the forum's marketplace, that Kerrick James has his 645D up for sale, priced at $2,500. So, if you do landscapes, a used 645D, and a 35mm lens - you are in deep clover.


Last edited by interested_observer; 07-03-2015 at 02:32 AM.
07-03-2015, 04:12 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by interested_observer Quote
So, right now, the best Pentax has access to is 3rd generation (K3). BSI is a 6th generation sensor. The 4th, 5th and 6th generation sensors, are what has given the smart phone cameras their better image quality for such a small sensor and optical lens. This should all now be available to Pentax in an SLR form factor.

If the new FF body has access to the BSI 6th generation sensor - as has been rumored, and the new ASP-C also gets a BSI based sensor, then there will be an open question of how much of the FF advances over the K3/K3II is sensor size (FF) alone, as opposed to the IQ enhancements of BSI. With my recent lens purchases (ASP-C limited 18-35, 60-250), I have somewhat limited (by choice) to ASP-c. So, the new K3 replacement with a 6th gen BSI sensor is my obvious choice. In addition the FF body will act as a price ceiling on the new ASP-c body - making it more affordable. It has been said that the FF segment of the market is about 10%. So, most of us will stay with the ASP-C form factor.
Do you mean the advatage like the BSI sensor in Samsung NX1 vs Nikon D7200 with a non BSI sensor?

One problem with a camera like Samsung NX1 is that is priced higher than many FF cameras.
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07-03-2015, 05:06 AM   #22
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A while ago when the BSI sensors came to the WGS series of cameras, I posted asking if they'd made much a of a difference and drew a great blank. SO either no one has used both a WGS with and without the BSI sensor, or it doesn't make much difference. I would guess the former is very unlikely. The original data claimed there was about a 50% increase in light absorbing capacity to be had, but that's only half a stop. If you are un-impressed with he 1.25 stop that is supposed to be the difference between FF and APS-c, you certainly aren't going to be impressed by the half stop difference BSI is going to make.

Last edited by normhead; 07-03-2015 at 05:12 AM.
07-03-2015, 11:13 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
Do you mean the advatage like the BSI sensor in Samsung NX1 vs Nikon D7200 with a non BSI sensor?

One problem with a camera like Samsung NX1 is that is priced higher than many FF cameras.
As I was writing that post, I was thinking about going out to DxO and comparing the Samsung with something else. But it was 2 in the morning and I just went back to bed. I would have thought that the comparison might have been better.

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
A while ago when the BSI sensors came to the WGS series of cameras, I posted asking if they'd made much a of a difference and drew a great blank. SO either no one has used both a WGS with and without the BSI sensor, or it doesn't make much difference. I would guess the former is very unlikely. The original data claimed there was about a 50% increase in light absorbing capacity to be had, but that's only half a stop. If you are un-impressed with he 1.25 stop that is supposed to be the difference between FF and APS-c, you certainly aren't going to be impressed by the half stop difference BSI is going to make.
It may well be that we are in the area of diminishing returns. I am wondering about the experience Pentax engineers bring to the table in designing the overall body system in squeezing a bit more out of a sensor. I am just happy with my current K5IIs which will allow me to sit on the side lines shooting pictures while the new bodies are introduced, evaluated and matured in the marketplace. Let the dust settle and see what all happens.



07-03-2015, 12:43 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
Do you mean the advatage like the BSI sensor in Samsung NX1 vs Nikon D7200 with a non BSI sensor?

One problem with a camera like Samsung NX1 is that is priced higher than many FF cameras.
Looking at Samsung then they won 7 point with the NX1. So maybe Sony can win also 7 points starting from their better sensors.
07-03-2015, 01:09 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by interested_observer Quote
. . . I would have thought that the comparison might have been better. It may well be that we are in the area of diminishing returns. . .
We are. BSI benefits small sensors MUCH more than it benefits large ones (at least in terms of light gathering) because the wiring obscures a much larger percentage of itty-bitty teeny tiny pixels than it does merely tiny ones.
QuoteOriginally posted by interested_observer Quote
I am wondering about the experience Pentax engineers bring to the table in designing the overall body system in squeezing a bit more out of a sensor. . .
I think Pentax got a lot of experience doing that with the first Samsung sensor they used.
07-03-2015, 07:17 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
A while ago when the BSI sensors came to the WGS series of cameras, I posted asking if they'd made much a of a difference and drew a great blank. SO either no one has used both a WGS with and without the BSI sensor, or it doesn't make much difference. I would guess the former is very unlikely. The original data claimed there was about a 50% increase in light absorbing capacity to be had, but that's only half a stop. If you are un-impressed with he 1.25 stop that is supposed to be the difference between FF and APS-c, you certainly aren't going to be impressed by the half stop difference BSI is going to make.
I think that any advantages of BSI sensors are not well understood because they have mainly been in fixed-lens cameras until now. These cameras don't usually get the in-depth reviews that ILCs do, and being able to mount the same lens onto different cameras for comparison helps to isolate the sensor's performance itself.

With the new FF 42mp sensor, the fact that it is BSI is only one of the new technologies built into it. Sony is also claiming that the copper wiring reduces noise, and it does other fancy high-speed tricks without putting so much burden on the camera's main processor. I guess the new APS-C sensor is a smaller version of that (that's pure assumption). In any case, Sony has a good track record of making ever better sensors, so i trust them to make a sensor that is better in every way, because otherwise why bother introducing it at all. So that's why I can't go along with the scepticism about new technology here.

Also, it seems from patent applications that Ricoh has been at least researching new mirror configurations for "DSLR" cameras. On-sensor PDAF is going to be essential for focus accuracy with high resolution sensors in my view. I'm hoping that the new FF (and APS-C cameras) will use this kind of focusing to improve accuracy in stills mode and it will be essential when they get more serious about video. PDAF is not on any of their existing sensors, so they will need a new one for this.
07-04-2015, 12:45 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
...The original data claimed there was about a 50% increase in light absorbing capacity to be had, but that's only half a stop. If you are un-impressed with he 1.25 stop that is supposed to be the difference between FF and APS-c, you certainly aren't going to be impressed by the half stop difference BSI is going to make.
The quantum efficiency - ie how many photons are converted to lectrons - is already around 50 %. Another 50 % increase is symply not possible.
07-04-2015, 05:41 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by goubejp Quote
The quantum efficiency - ie how many photons are converted to lectrons - is already around 50 %. Another 50 % increase is symply not possible.
OK< to use the Sony numbers, they claimed whatever they were comparing it to, their current best sensor was around 60% and with the BSI they could get around 90% capture, so a 50% increase over what they had. Increasing 50% to 100% capture would be a 100% increase, and a full stop.

Sheesh, do I have to explain everything?
07-04-2015, 06:05 PM   #29
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With Sony going out and raising another $4Billion targeted just for for their imaging sensor business, they have a hard plan in place - based on where their current R&D is, along with their future thinking. They have at least the next 5 years of technology identified, and planned for and probably working to various degrees in their labs. With FABs running at least $1B each - all of this is known internally. You can be assured that they have briefed their traditional customers (with ironclad NDAs in place) what their plans are for at least the next 2 to 3 years out, so that this can be factored into their product roadmaps and designs. With both Nikon and Pentax using Toshiba image processors, they too have probably been brief on the various "speeds and feeds", that can be expected - so that the imaging pipeline roadmap and designs can be worked on and technologies in place to support the sensors.

It appears that BSI will be in the FF form factors initially (based on the Sony product), then probably followed by the ASP-C and then the 645 MF form factors. In Sony's financing announcement, they indicated that they were only able to supply half their demand. They really can't let 50% of their customers demand go someplace else.

Since BSI is their current 6th generation, they have at least 7 (laid out and pre FABed) with 8 & 9 working on simulators, along with future generations identified and in R&D.

07-05-2015, 07:12 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I would love to see a K-02 with an EVF, PDAF on the sensor, and weather sealing. Offer a version with a full frame sensor and SR down the road and watch them fly off the shelves!
Add different design and i'm all in.

QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Wondering if it would be possible to use one of these sensors with the PDAF baked in directly on a DSLR.. somewhat of a hybrid approach to a mirrorless/DSLR camera. Still have the beautiful OVF but with the performance of the PDAF in sensor. Add the exposure settings and/or histogram overlayed on the OVF view and you have yourself a meal.
With a translucent mirror that should be possible. If the mirror can be flipped up it wouldn't have the light loss as Sony SLT did.

That said, On sensor PDAF is not written in silicon. Its an add on feature like the color filter array or anti aliasing filter. Ricoh can easily negotiate it away if they dont want it in their order. The expensive part, the silicon, can still be the exact same.
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