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07-01-2008, 10:06 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by Robert Barnett Quote
No one in this thread should be talking about anything positive.

Huh? This thread has been about getting a workaround for the firmware problem.

You wanna have an "Apple sux" moment, why don't you start your own thread about that?

07-02-2008, 07:12 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
I think the right company to be blamed is Pentax but NOT Apple, Bible or any other 3rd party software companies.
Where were you when Canon did the same thing only worse!!!
quote from Bibble tech support:
it doesn't make sense to do a complete release to fix one problem if you've got others you're working on finishing up. We've had problems with Canons coming back from being repaired with variations in the model names that caused trouble and we're weren't able to immediately release an update. We are working on an update to resolve some open issues that will include a fix for the firmware. I don't have an estimate on the date yet, but I assure you it's as fast as we can do it.
-Colleen
Bibble Labs..............


Go away.......
07-02-2008, 08:33 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
Where were you when Canon did the same thing only worse!!!
quote from Bibble tech support:
it doesn't make sense to do a complete release to fix one problem if you've got others you're working on finishing up. We've had problems with Canons coming back from being repaired with variations in the model names that caused trouble and we're weren't able to immediately release an update. We are working on an update to resolve some open issues that will include a fix for the firmware. I don't have an estimate on the date yet, but I assure you it's as fast as we can do it.
-Colleen
Bibble Labs..............


Go away.......
So, you meant that Pentax should do or could do whatever others' wrong acts just because others have done evils before?

Do remember also the K20D firmware 1.01 bug is an "open issue", not an individual issue or isolated case.
07-02-2008, 02:50 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
I think the right company to be blamed is Pentax but NOT Apple, Bible or any other 3rd party software companies.

Why? Its Pentax who changed the RAW header file in the firmware update of the K20D without any notice or warning to end-users and without any good co-ordination with other software companies (the outcome tells it all) suddenly and "all by themselves" (and without concerning about anyone else) and thus finally causes all those troubles and hassle. So?

.
Have you checked Pentax's developer documentation and communications? If not, I'd suggest you refrain from making such a statement of blame. Consider, for example, that at least one software company took this change in stride. Was that blind luck or simply because they chose to follow published standards? Consider also that at least one of software companies you consider blameless admits to having similar problems with Canon. Is that simply bad luck or because they are not sufficiently experienced or disciplined to adhere to the published standards?

The accepted practice in the software industry has always been that when a software developer uses someone else's proprietary data structures for their own gain, then the onus is on the software developer to understand and adhere to the published standards and program accordingly. In the absence of a a published standard, then the developer uses the structure at its own risk and needs to be able to react to changes. The fix to this problem is trivial and the tardiness of availability speaks volumes about the vendors' ability and/or willingness to provide adequate support for its product(s). It is my opinion that anyone impacted by the lack of availability of such fixes should carefully (re)consider their use of any such product in any mission or business critical process. Dave

07-02-2008, 03:18 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by davef Quote
Have you checked Pentax's developer documentation and communications? If not, I'd suggest you refrain from making such a statement of blame. ...

The accepted practice in the software industry has always been that when a software developer uses someone else's proprietary data structures for their own gain, then the onus is on the software developer to understand and adhere to the published standards and program accordingly. In the absence of a a published standard, then the developer uses the structure at its own risk and needs to be able to react to changes. The fix to this problem is trivial and the tardiness of availability speaks volumes about the vendors' ability and/or willingness to provide adequate support for its product(s). It is my opinion that anyone impacted by the lack of availability of such fixes should carefully (re)consider their use of any such product in any mission or business critical process. Dave

Is PEF an open raw format? I doubt it, in view of the fact that both Light Crafts (makers of Lightzone) and Bibble Labs were asking users for example files from the K20D after it first came out. I know that Bibble Labs is a big advocate of the Open Raw concept. And the folks there DO seem like smart and knowledgeable developers, so if Pentax really was publishing nice little notes for developers, I'd expect Bibble to be able to incorporate something like this fairly quickly. (Although I also know that they're quite busy working on their next version at the moment...)

My take is that this problem is simply a fact of life with digital photography. Some days I favor everybody getting on the DNG bandwagon; other days, I'm all for Open Raw. But in the world as we know it today, there is no standard - not even DNG is a simple standard! So it's inevitable that there be minor problems whenever something new comes out, especially when a new camera is released with a new file format. I don't blame the software folks for this. To be honest, I don't know how they keep up at all. I am inclined to put a little more blame on the camera makers, as few of them (to my knowledge) really publish the full details on their file formats. So the software makers all have to reverse engineer each new format. Adobe has a couple of advantages. It's a very large company, with millions of users, and ACR can be patched independently.

Anyway, the moral is: upgraders beware. If you buy a new camera or even upgrade your firmware, be prepared for things to break at least for a while. That's just the way it is.

Will
07-02-2008, 05:08 PM   #36
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K20D 1.01 firmware update broke iphoto 08' PEF support

Still using K-10D with much satisfaction. Only serious complaint is low light focusing. Apparently K20D little or no better. But to a positive suggestion: Adobe's FREE DNG Converter, downloadable from site without question, will convert the PEF file to DNG compressed without loss. Same file size. Apparently all of the problems with recognition will disappear.

BTW what file size do you get in PEF with the K20D?
07-02-2008, 07:21 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by WMBP Quote
Is PEF an open raw format? I doubt it, in view of the fact that both Light Crafts (makers of Lightzone) and Bibble Labs were asking users for example files from the K20D after it first came out.

My take is that this problem is simply a fact of life with digital photography. Some days I favor everybody getting on the DNG bandwagon; other days, I'm all for Open Raw. But in the world as we know it today, there is no standard - not even DNG is a simple standard! So it's inevitable that there be minor problems whenever something new comes out, especially when a new camera is released with a new file format. I don't blame the software folks for this. To be honest, I don't know how they keep up at all. I am inclined to put a little more blame on the camera makers, as few of them (to my knowledge) really publish the full details on their file formats. So the software makers all have to reverse engineer each new format. Adobe has a couple of advantages. It's a very large company, with millions of users, and ACR can be patched independently.

Anyway, the moral is: upgraders beware. If you buy a new camera or even upgrade your firmware, be prepared for things to break at least for a while. That's just the way it is.

Will
No argument that: Adoobe is large; PEF is a proprietary format;that the Bibble folks (and others) are capable programmers and that the use of 3rd party software in such an environment is a caveat emptor situation. I will, however, comment that there is a huge difference between capably writing programs and running a software company which provides adequate support for its user base over and above simply writing programs and
reiterate that if you depend on software for mission critical and/or business critical functions then you should seek software alternatives where the supplier can not only write the program but has the resources to support it.

I will also agree that the introduction of a completely new file format and/or camera is likely to have delays as support is added throughout the 3rd party world. However, this is not a new format and it is not a new camera -- it is a trivial change in the header data for a camera that these companies claim to support. It ought to be easily patchable for a competent developer with access to source and a standard toolkit. The response, or lack thereof, is, in my opinion, woefully inadequate for a software company and speaks volumes about suppliers commitments to customer support and to providing ongoing support for an existing install base.

Personally, I have found Bibble to be a useful program. I was disappointed at the length of time it took to add K20 support but was prepared to wait as it was a new camera. After this latest problem, it is unlikely that Bibble will ever find its way back into my workflow and a certainty that they will never convince me to part with upgrade fees for new releases. If enough people vote with their wallets, then perhaps they will begin to understand that the lifeblood of a software company is its install base and not in developing the next great mousetrap.

My opinion. Your mileage may vary. Dave
07-02-2008, 07:35 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by photog Quote
But to a positive suggestion: Adobe's FREE DNG Converter, downloadable from site without question, will convert the PEF file to DNG compressed without loss. Same file size. Apparently all of the problems with recognition will disappear.
But if you're using Bibble Pro, new problems will appear: Bibble does not support any converted raw files. I'm not sure how many other converted raw files there are, but if your camera saves the file as a PEF, and you use DNG Converter to turn it into a DNG, it won't be recognizable in Bibble Pro. Ditto if you shoot DNG originally. Bibble Pro will read the K20D's own uncompressed DNG files. But if you run them through DNG Converter (simply to shrink the size), then you're out of luck.

This is part of the company's philosophical commitment to Open Raw rather than DNG. It has caused me some trouble but I respect their position.

I'm personally inclined to think that one almost has to have several different programs available. If I really ran into trouble, I'd try Pentax's own software although I haven't used it since I bought my first Pentax dslr.


QuoteQuote:
BTW what file size do you get in PEF with the K20D?
Depends. Just looked at a folder of photos I took a couple of weeks ago. PEFs range from about 12 MB to about 19 MB. The K20D's DNG files are, of course, even larger.

Will

07-02-2008, 08:14 PM   #39
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The way the initial K20D support went was upsetting as a Pentax owner, but understandable once you think about it, they had several new cameras to add before finalizing Bibble5, Pentax had provided them with the info, the fix was done, but other new cameras showing up on market at the same time were not such easy fixes/additions, so all support was held until all cameras to be added were in.
That Bibble chose to match the Make exact instead of losely is unfortunate, was the string matching done loosely, it would have easily worked.
I am excited to know they are feverishly working on Bibble5, with lots of things i wish Bibble4 had, and i know they work on the firmware string change fix and bundle it together with other fixes, rebuild, retest, and release a final Bibble4, and especially after i posted on their forum how easy it is for us to use our raws until then, i hope they don't fred this minor nuisance, considering how simple the fix is for me, personally, i'd be ok if there was no final Bibble4 unless one of the other issues is grave enough for other users.
Getting Bibble5 with all it's improvements and additions to me would be worth more than not having to run `exiftool -Make="PENTAX Corporation" *.pef`

In short "It's not that big of a deal."

Last edited by morfic; 07-02-2008 at 08:21 PM. Reason: Removed quote as reply is more general than to davef in particular.
07-03-2008, 04:57 PM   #40
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RiceHigh, that is the thing though and part of my point. Had Pentax said in the release notes for the firmware that they did indeed make these changes and had they notified all of the software companies on the planet that support Pentax K20D raw files of the change, you all would still be sitting in an empty field here. Why? Because look how quickly most of these software companies update their products. Adobe currently is the only company that comes out with timely updates and that is once a quarter. Look how long it took Corel, ACD Systems, and others to add support for the K10D let alone the K20D. One company DxO to come out with an update that supports the K10D. In fact they just recently added support for the K10D's DNG files. So in the end even if Pentax had went out of their way by doing the whole notification thing it would not have made one bit of difference.

You can't tell me that all of the companies who's products don't now work with the K20D's raw files because of these changes are going to be updated any time soon. This should be a very small change, but you watch Apple will take weeks or months, DxO probably not until the next major update and so on. Adobe is the only company that seems to be dedicated to getting new cameras supported in a consistent and timely manor.

So in the end who's fault is it? Is it Pentax's fault for bothering to update and tweak their products? If it is maybe Pentax should just not do firmware updates at all. After all any change they make could cause a problem for a third party developer. Or is it Apple and the others that A) support RAW formats in a such a way that even minor changes cause them to break and B) at best take weeks or months or longer to support new cameras.

I submit that it isn't Pentax. If Adobe can add raw support for the K20D that didn't break with this new firmware update then so could everyone else. That makes it very clear that the problem lies with Apple and the other software companies. Now if Adobe was broken too, then you might be able to blame Pentax. But, that isnt' what happened.

Also, I would like to point out that other companies implementation of raw support is so flawed that their software doesn't support DNG files from any camera until they add support for that cameras propritary raw format. This is NOT how DNG is supposed to work, Adobe has made that clear and in fact before Adobe supported the K20D's PEF files it worked fine with the K20D's DNG files right out of the box. This is another indication that the other companies are doing a very poor job. Again, not Pentax's problem.

Robert
07-03-2008, 06:35 PM   #41
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oh stop drumming the dng drum already.
dng support for raw is as useful as avi support for videos.
once you update for the content, both of course work
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