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02-07-2007, 06:32 PM   #16
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Ivan's noise reduction algorith

Ivan, that's good work! Don't give it away for free (exept to us forum members )- it could be your retirement plan !

02-07-2007, 07:41 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by i.glisin Quote
Actually, it is not impossible.

I was going to make this announcement soon anyway, but why not give you a sneak preview: I have been working over the past four months on a noise reduction algorithm with the main goal to develop a simple and fast procedure suitable for low-level firmware implementation or on-chip hardware implementation (PRIME?), assuring noticeable improvement in noise appearance while preserving both textures and fine details.

Although I am still improving the system, I am pleased with the results so far. Since the algorithm is very efficient and with very low degree of data dependency, my calculations are showing it is possible to easily develop an engine with throughput of over 100 megapixels/second -- enough for 10 FPS with 10MP cameras or over 120 FPS for HDTV applications.

Still work in progress, but here are the results so far: all are 100% crops, no corrections whatsoever during RAW conversion or in Photoshop (all default). Some filters executed as Photoshop filter on RGB images, some of them as standalone ANSI C filter working on demosaiced Bayer's RGGB pattern straight from DNG files (reads DNG and outputs filtered DNG -- that is as close as I can get to the actual sensor). *istDS, all ISO 3200:

-= IVAN =-

but how would these be implimented? would you sell the results to pentax as a firmware update?


02-07-2007, 07:59 PM   #18
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i.glisin - Would this work on a K100 as well? I'd be happy to volunteer several noisy K100 RAW files for you to test
02-07-2007, 08:35 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alvin Quote
i.glisin - Would this work on a K100 as well? I'd be happy to volunteer several noisy K100 RAW files for you to test
Thank you!

K100D would work fine. I actually need K10D raw files to test, although I am not expecting any problems since my method is adaptive and can process anything in any color model (I have tried RGB, L*a*b and RAW RGGB, but I see no reason why it wouldn't work in CMYK or real-time on digitally coded video streams -- although I have not tried that yet -- Pentax Optio pocket cameras could benefit from real-time video noise reduction).

As an example see the image bellow: 100% crop taken with Canon Digital Rebel (first 6MP model) at ISO 1600, no additional processing in PS. Keep in mind that Canon uses CMOS sensors and my method still works fine with ZERO modifications to the algorithm. Note though that this example is old and had been created with somewhat wrong parameters I determined for *ist DS -- notice parallel lines on that box with "T" letter. With better parameters and after calibrating for Canon CMOS sensor noise characteristics I was able to produce similar noise reduction result while preserving lines.

-= IVAN =-

02-07-2007, 09:08 PM   #20
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Several ways to do it

QuoteOriginally posted by slipchuck Quote
Impressive! but how would these be implimented? would you sell the results to pentax as a firmware update?
Possible. One approach could be to deliver this as a firmware upgrade for existing cameras. Of course I know nothing about the architecture of their firmware and how it could be done and at what cost: would that impact FPS rate in continuous shooting, interfere with some other processing, or would that require significant changes in the processing pipeline are the questions I don't know answers to, but it can be done that's for sure.

There is also a possibility to make a chip for noise reduction using the algorithm either as a completely custom design fabricated from scratch or implemented as FPGA (Field Programmable Gate Array) which can be done in a garage and is somewhat close to fabricating custom chip but it may require support of an external microprocessor or imaging engine (similar to FPU floating point units in old days, like Intel i387 FPU helping i386 CPU with floating-point math). The downside is: you need a new camera for this so it is not an option for K10D or K100D (645D???), but I believe firmware version would be sufficient especially if PRIME engine on K10D can be reprogrammed to do the job.

Still, since I do not work on this full time I need at least three more months to complete more tests, analyze results, design preliminary hardware and software architecture, write technical and perhaps research paper, and check how all that affects printing, additional post processing and similar end-user related things.

Again, work in progress somewhere mid life cycle.

-= IVAN =-
02-07-2007, 11:43 PM   #21
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Great. I'm new to this forum so I don't know if many others have noted the problem with green button metering in Manual mode with old lenses (such as the "M" and "K").

In that other forum the overexposed meter readings are a much discussed topic, with the sentiment expressed that this problem "flies in the face" of the Pentax sales pitch to the effect that the K10D is compatible with ALL Pentax glass. [Quoting Don Allison; see also K & M problem on K10D--are we giving up for now?: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review]

Of course, there are work arounds, such as estimating additional shutter clicks, but it would be nice to actually get a usable meter reading after hitting the green button. To be sure, my *istDS works just fine with the same old lenses. So, hopefully this concern can be addressed to some degree at your upcomming meeting.

Alan Eskenazi
02-08-2007, 12:24 AM   #22
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Mention a fullframe camera with a 100% viewfinder to them.

Wow, that's really good, seems to work better on the CCD than on the CMOS. That algorithm seems to leave some clumpy "grain", but that's the problemwith luminescence noise, it's impossible to get rid of. I see little loss of details (that spoon is amazing). If it's possible to make the "grain" finer, then that would be even better, because I find the finer "grain" much less objectionable. The result looks similar to the method used in the FZ-50, but much better. I can send you some noisy K10D raw files, if you want.

Last edited by Manwe; 02-08-2007 at 12:32 AM.
02-08-2007, 03:56 AM   #23
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i have not been thru this thread totally but the low battery issue is also present it seems with all models. also i have a prob with no TTL support.. is this a hardware or software problem.. when i get home i'll peruse this thread completely. sorry if the TTL issue was voiced before.

02-08-2007, 06:34 AM   #24
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No AF button on Battery grip


I wisited the Norwegian Pentax distributor yesterday. They had a demo K10d I could look at. Then I ordered the camera.
But one thing annoyed me: No AF button on Battery grip. Do you think you can talk the Pentax folks into making it possible to program one of the two buttons in the thumb-area of the grip there to AF-functionality in the next firmware upgrade?

02-08-2007, 07:18 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by acrbill Quote
Perhaps you can ask if the k100 and k10 will support a 8GB HCSD card.

I am pretty sure they already do. At least the K10 does. I don't have one of those cards but I know I read they do. Actually the last firmware update for the DS included HCSD card use. So I'll go out and a limb and say they do.
02-08-2007, 07:34 AM   #26
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Thanks again Ben! I forgot to mention, I'd like my next pentax to present me with a chocolate truffle everytime I "nail" a shot. You see this way you could tell if a Pentax photographer is good or not...all the good ones would be over weight!

NaCl(the other option would be for the camera to give you a sharp shock every time you blow a shot)H2O
02-08-2007, 12:13 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by roy Quote
i have not been thru this thread totally but the low battery issue is also present it seems with all models. also i have a prob with no TTL support.. is this a hardware or software problem.. when i get home i'll peruse this thread completely. sorry if the TTL issue was voiced before.
Hardware - there is no ttl sensor in the camera, hence no ttl support.
The sensor used for ttl is different and in a different location than the sensor for pttl.
02-08-2007, 12:29 PM   #28
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Must it be K10D? I am still hoping Auto ISO will work with EV compensation for my DS, and unlock all fixed settings with PIC modes would be nice too. I am sure many users of other models feel the same way too.
02-08-2007, 12:30 PM   #29
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Okay Ben when was the meeting how did it go? Any updates or interesting insider stuff you can share?
02-08-2007, 02:03 PM   #30
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I have looked over all the comments, and I think they can be broken down as follows, Hardware (i.e. cannot be done within existing cameras), software (which should be possible in most cameras), attachments and lenses which are self explanitory

Hardware Improvements

 The onboard flash needs to be recalibrated and the guide number increased, i.e. more output. The flash has more issues with back lighted subjects that I have never experienced before, probably a firmware update would help that.
 Focusing in low light, needs a better focus assist method.. please, the laser hologram that Sony had in it's F series would be fantastic, that was unbeatable up to 4 or 5 meters.
 a faster sync speed (Please 250 +, (for stop action and outdoor studio work)
 Battery status indicator, the ability to show approximate remaining time for the battery and ability to show status of both batteries, camera and grip
 How about a full frame sensor, 12-16Mp,
 slightly more rugged frame (ala D200),
 faster frame rates (5 fps would be ideal),
 Dedicated buttons for controlling WB, ISO and Quality - a lá Nikon D200's 'Three Kings'.
 A wireless setup similar to canon's.... giving it the ability to transfer the shots directly to a laptop while you are walking around instead of having to transfer via memory card. still have them write to a card for security.
 GPS data for all photos taken. Sony already has at least one P & S that will do this.
 APS-H sensor with 12mpx. I want to be able to continue to use my old Pentax glass on a moderate sized body. Noise at ISO 3200 would have to be as good as the K10D at ISO 800.
 8-10 mp sensor between present ASP-C and full frame.
 Better dust removal system. The one on the K10D leaves a lot of room for improvement.
 more resolution for the camera display so that when I zoom in on a shot, I can actually see if it is in focus or not instead of having to transfer it to a computer first to see.
 100% VIEWFINDER! Used a Nikon film camera that had 100% and it had +- benefits.
 Make the bottom of the next grip rougher. It is very hard to keep Arca release plates from sliding around.
 Dual card slots. Download on two SD at a time for in camera back up in case of card problem.
 Ability to use P-ttl or ttl with any lens. Both on board flash and 360, 540 flashes.
 Uncripple the K mount so all lenses work as originally intended.
 Larger buffer for more RAW shoots before slowing down.
 Battery grip that permits removal of camera battery without grip removal


 A P-ttl ring light.
 an LCD screen attachment to the viewfinder (like Zigview, but much better quality). I'm tired on trying to dig a hole or ? to get my face low enough to get my shots and with the right angle finder you still have to bend way down. For us over 50 it's a pain. A removable viewfinder with a waist level finder would be the cats meow !!!!!
 Attachment to turn an Optio P&S into a zigview.
 Why not attachment for any PDA as an enlarged viewfinder
 Ringlight flash

 10mm or so wide rectangular lens,
 a NON full frame fisheye.
 a wide angle T&S lens for landscape and studio work.
 35 mm F1.4
 100mm f2.0 or faster for low light stage and available light work.
 135mm 2.0 or faster for stage shoots.
 200mm MACRO LENS.
 fast 200mm and 300mm
 inexpensive 16mm – 70 mm
 a new 20-200mm F2.8
 New teles bigger than 400mm.
 a complete lineup of Limiteds, INCLUDING ZOOMS, and covering the range from 12mm through 400mm, with fast fixed apertures (2.8 down to 1.4) and metal construction as beautifully executed
 It would be desirable for Pentax to develop a teleconverter that could provide automatic aperture functions for non automatic lenses. Lets imagine a 1.4x converter for the 300mm F4 lens, which would allow other than full aperture in automatic mode, and stopped down metering in manual mode. It should be possible, and would be a great way for people to get some use out of old lenses that are not easy to replace all at once.


 parameter customization a la Nikon with access to all cameras through computer link up
 Update Pentax remote assistant to use on other than *istD possibly for parameterization
 The flash metering has issues with back lighted subjects ,probably a firmware update would help that.
 Greater flash exposure compensation range. +1 often doesn't get it done. Even close-up in macro shooting.
 full Adobe DNG RAW (or, get them to support Pentax better!),
 bracketing for focus. ability to program depth of field amount.
 Use of the multiple focusing sensors to automatically optimize depth of field, plus the option of which sensors to use.
 the ability to change default file names,
 modification of green button function in flash mode to calculate change in F Stop for old K mount lenses, thus providing P-TTL flash or TTL flash on K mount lenses,
 the ability to trip the shutter even if there is no focus indication.
 the ability to enter whether you have a teleconverter on the lens, for anti shake etc...
 Incorporate a "T" setting so wireless remote can work time exposures longer than 30 seconds.
 Use prime engine to output 14-16 bit info.
 Make mirror lock up time adjustable. My Olympus E300 already does this.
 ISO down to 50 or 25.
 Memory of each lens with +- exposure calibration built in. All my DA,DFA,FA lenses don't shoot the same exposure. This would allow photographer to fine tune them once and not worry about it.
 Better incandescent light setting on AWB. I can get there manually so the camera should have the same adjustment range on AWB.
 Longer exposure capability on AV. Old LX would go for about 2 min. This camera won't go as long in AV as it will meter in MANUAL. Why not?
 the modification of the flash zoom to match the effective 35mm focal length of the image sensor. there is no need to zoom the flash to 28 mm for a 28 mm lens because the effective focal length is in the 42mm range. this would improve the light output and recycle time
 3200 ISO setting for low light photography.
 there is no power zoom function, even though it is listed in the features and in the manual

Good luck with Pentax

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