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09-21-2015, 06:40 AM   #16
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I would be very surprised to see a new APS-C body since the APS-C lineup was renewed only a few months ago...

However, there's certainly a window for an new Q body for xmas. More so than the Q is really in need of an update to stay competitive. Many things could be done without putting too much stress on the R&D, like a 1MP LCD (0.4 is kind of obsolete these days), adding the Clarity feature of the KS-2, improving general performance, better blur control, WR sealing... If they feel daring, pixel shift could help make it more competitive with 1" and even m43 competitors (I know, I'm dreaming here...). Or an upgraded 1/1.7" sensor, although I don't know if one is available... Adding the software part for wireless P-TTL flash control could certainly be interesting for some users...

Some new lenses would be welcome, like an affordable wide angle prime or an updated, more compact, standard zoom to make it more competitive in terms of size.

So, a lot could be done on the Q front without breaking the bank in R&D. And, IMHO, a well supported - and marketed- compact mirrorless ILC system could have a brighter future than a FF DSLR...

09-21-2015, 06:52 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by mrNewt Quote
No, it hasn't been 2 years.

There were hopes and wishes from a lot of people for years, but when the actual, official news was given that they are working on the FF is not too long ago. And based on what they promised, they are only delayed for roughly 6 months. Where did you come up with the 2 years?
As one of the ones reading the Pentax announcements and trying to decode the marketing gobbledygook, my best estimate based on the available information was last November. Then Pentax execs announced the Pentax FF had been pushed back for the 645z, and now it's been pushed back for something else. Two 6 month delays = 1 year later than my earliest possible guess. But those were my guesses, based on what Pentax announced, not anything Pentax ever announced. Sometimes I think people like myself know something they don't. But, you have to remember, there were people who read the same reports I did, who promptly announced that Pentax was never going to release an FF, based on reading the same articles. We were both wrong, but they were "wronger".

You can't assume that because a forum member says something is going to happen, it is. That being said, my "best estimate" was that last June was the expected date. And with a couple of 6 month delays, I think I pretty much nailed it, in terms of Pentax's best case scenario. The only thing I really care about in the Pentax FF is i want the AF to be at least as good as a Nikon D610. If they can't get that right, I won't even consider it. That's what is important. The time it's released? Well, my opinions on the actual value of FF are pretty well known. It's a "nice to have" thing, not a "have to have" thing.

Right now, I like my K-3. I'm not thinking about upgrading. It does what I want APS-c to do. So what Pentax does with APS-c is not really an issue. A tweak to the processing unit to get the same DR Nikon does with the same sensor would be nice, but I don't mind working with the DR of the K-3.

Last edited by normhead; 09-21-2015 at 06:58 AM.
09-21-2015, 07:00 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
As one of the ones reading the Pentax announcements and trying to decode the marketing gobbledygook, my best estimate based on the available information was last November. Then Pentax execs announced the Pentax had been pushed bak for the 645z, and now it's been pushed back for something else. Two 6 month delays = 1 year later than my earliest possible guess. But those were my guesses, based on what Pentax announced, not anything Pentax ever announced. Sometimes I think people like myself know something they don't. But, you have to remember, there were people who read the same reports I did, who promptly announced that Pentax was never going to release an FF, based on reading the same articles.

You can't assume that because a forum member says something is going to happen, it is. That being said, my "best estimate" was that last June was the expected date. And with a couple of 6 month delays, I think I pretty much nailed it. The only thing I really care about in the Pentax FF is i want the AF to be at least as good as a Nikon D610. If they can't get that right, I won't even consider it. That's what is important. The time it's released? Well, my opinions on that actual value of FF are pretty well known. It's a nice to have thing, not a have to have thing.
I usually don't trust rumors or announcements. I go by what the company has actually did rather than announced. For me, the official time when they actually committed to the FF, was when they unveiled the 3d print model (which is not so far ago); and based on what they promised then with what they announced now, officially they are only roughly 6 months off. Which is not that bad, considering this is a big step for them.

I really hope they do well with the new body!
09-21-2015, 07:13 AM   #19
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I think we'll see limited development of APS-c for a while. The specific weaknesses of APS-c are more easily addressed with an FF then by trying to come up with technical innovations to try and squeeze more performance out of an APS-c sensor. Everyone hates on Nikon for not having APS-c cameras that are as good as their FFs in some areas like AF, but simple logic would point out, there are technical reasons for that. A sensor that is twice the size, can have more AF and AE points. While I'm happy to point out that 90 to95% of what you can do with FF you can do with APS-c, if you want something FF does that APS-c doesn't, you really don't have much choice. while they are very similar, they are not the same.

So in a sense, the new FF is the Pentax approach to the limitations of current APS-c models. I'm sure there will be new APS-c, but with an FF out, the need to go that route is diminished. You already will have an upgrade path for people who want to upgrade. APS-c will be for those looking for a great camera at a bargain price. Most of the high end Pentax users will migrate to the FF, and won't even be looking for a high end APS-c.

Releasing the FF will reduce the need for high end APS-c.


Last edited by normhead; 09-21-2015 at 07:19 AM.
09-21-2015, 07:59 AM   #20
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I guess I have to make a decision about buying a camera soon.
I have been waiting for this FF situation to blow over as I dont think I buy one.

I have been holding on because as others have stated some features of the FF might move over to the APS-C

Any way you cant win them all. Black Friday here I come........
09-21-2015, 08:17 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I think we'll see limited development of APS-c for a while.
Agree. If nothing else, today's prize rooster is tomorrow's feather duster. The K-5 was once the flagship; now it's an inexpensive second-hand, second-line purchase. In another year or two, entry-level cameras will possess K3-II level features.

Remember that the cost of a new type of camera is the cost of the R&D and the production facilities as well as the components, labour, QC etc. If you can spread some of that out among future entry-level bodies, that helps amortise the cost. Even if the FF came out tomorrow and it was the God Camera that crushed SoCaNikon and consigned them all to the dust of history, we would still see Ricoh wanting a return on its APS-C R&D/component production costs wherever possible (particularly with the K3-II so recent). It is also for this reason that whatever new features we see in the FF are likely to migrate to APS-C bodies.
09-21-2015, 08:36 AM - 1 Like   #22
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I have owned Pentax equipment since the late 1960's and stuck with the brand when I moved into digital because I liked the size, ergonomics, had lots of K (and screw) mount lenses and always thought that the brand offered great value for the money. I acquired several digital bodies and more lenses and have continued to be pleased with the results that I get from my gear. My ultimate work product is a print and even my old DS produces great prints, within it's limits. Over the years with digital equipment, my habits have evolved much the same as with film equipment, in that I have stopped carrying a bag with multiple lenses (unless there is a very specific reason to do so) and now typically carry a body with one lens attached, be it a zoom or a prime. I really don't have a need for a full frame camera; I think that today's APSC sensors have developed to a point that I can live quite happily with the results from them. Being sometimes affected by GAS, I might get one anyway (I do have lenses for it already), except that another consideration has come into play for me.
I recently returned from a trip where I carried and used one camera, a Fuji X100T. I bought this camera to try the form factor, which I was very pleased with; talking about size not the "rangefinder" approach (which wasn't bad either). My point here, is that Ricoh/Pentax is coming out with a full frame camera, which is fine, but will now be way behind the curve on bringing a mirrorless camera to market. I understand that compact mirrorless bodies don't work with K mount lenses and the K-01 was a bust, but from product standpoint, they will be missing the market. Unless you are playing the Leica game, you've got to get some volume with some of these products. With the market going to phones and mirrorless, I think they will have problems. I'm part of some demographic that doesn't want haul heavy, bulky cameras around if I can get what I want with a substantially smaller mirrorless camera. I have no issues with my Pentax gear; it does what I want it to do at a reasonable price; that said, I'm more likely to get a mirrorless camera/system than a FF camera or even another APSC size DSLR and am concerned they will be missing a big piece of an evolving market.
09-21-2015, 11:18 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by PeterAM Quote
from product standpoint, they will be missing the market
The problem is that market segment is already pretty well saturated, and getting into it (late), with the costs of developing a fourth mount and lens ecosystem, could be worse than missing it. If the rumors about Samsung giving up on cameras are true, there isn't enough APSC MILC business for all the players, including one that can leverage wireless technology and maximize volume.

Up to now, Ricoh/Pentax has made a point of pursuing their own niches and NOT going head-to-head with the competition, much to the frustration of some. For better or worse, the Q is their MILC offering. It has been popular in Japan and almost invisible elsewhere. How much more can they do with that platform, and is it worthwhile? We are due for another Q body, and if the previous pattern holds, this one should be more than a restyling. I fear that if we do see an upgraded Q in the next couple months, it will get a particularly hostile reception here just because it's not a FF DSLR.

09-21-2015, 12:47 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
So in a sense, the new FF is the Pentax approach to the limitations of current APS-c models. I'm sure there will be new APS-c, but with an FF out, the need to go that route is diminished. You already will have an upgrade path for people who want to upgrade. APS-c will be for those looking for a great camera at a bargain price. Most of the high end Pentax users will migrate to the FF, and won't even be looking for a high end APS-c. Releasing the FF will reduce the need for high end APS-c.
Yes, that perfectly makes sense to me, except if the Pentax FF feature an 42Mp BSI sensor in it, positioned like the 5Ds, and priced at $4K, cheaper than a 645z, but not affordable for most APSc users.

QuoteOriginally posted by PeterAM Quote
I understand that compact mirrorless bodies don't work with K mount lenses and the K-01 was a bust, but from product standpoint, they will be missing the market. Unless you are playing the Leica game, you've got to get some volume with some of these products. With the market going to phones and mirrorless, I think they will have problems. I'm part of some demographic that doesn't want haul heavy, bulky cameras around if I can get what I want with a substantially smaller mirrorless camera. I have no issues with my Pentax gear; it does what I want it to do at a reasonable price; that said, I'm more likely to get a mirrorless camera/system than a FF camera or even another APSC size DSLR and am concerned they will be missing a big piece of an evolving market.
You explain clearly, and it makes sense. Generally speaking, instead of competing head to head with less strength into a crowded market (DSLR with sames sensors from Sony or Samsung), getting into the development of the new market segment is the right way to go (refer to "Blue ocean strategy"). Apple did it entering the mobile phone market with a new concept iPhone, while Nokia kept going in the same direction. Sony cameras did it with the Alpha series, and Fuji also did it with the X series.

QuoteOriginally posted by THoog Quote
The problem is that market segment is already pretty well saturated
Yes, too late to enter the market by getting sales from leveraging product differentiation. However, now that Sony and Fuji have proven that people like the form factor of mirror-less cameras, Canon might still address the same market segment by entering by their overwhelming commercial presence and selling a second body to their existing DSLR user base.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 09-21-2015 at 01:01 PM.
09-21-2015, 12:49 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by pathdoc Quote
If you can spread some of that out among future entry-level bodies, that helps amortise the cost
This is true, and is the reason I feel the FF body is getting all the R&D attention for now. A DSLR is a DSLR regardless of the size of sensor, the hard parts of designing a camera are just as hard for APS-C as FF (assuming the intended usage is similar). The K-3 II is just applying new features that were ready for release using very similar components, the only reason to bring it to market now instead of a more revolutionary model in less than a year is because there were no plans to introduce an truly new high-end APS-C DSLR before mid-2016 and that "revolutionary" new model would be based on FF components (for the reason you mentioned).

Since the K-3 II won't have been on the market for 18 months until the end of 2016, the obviously unplanned for delay in the FF camera is unlikely to speed up the release of a new high end APS-C DSLR. If Ricoh decides to continue the FF project, it could actually delay the release of a new high end APS-C camera even more, in order to incorporate new components from the FF camera, while not stealing the thunder from the FF launch. If the FF project is cancelled, then I expect R&D will switch to working on incorporating features originally intended for the FF camera into a new high-end APS-C camera, which will then be marketed as truly revolutionary. I'm pretty sure that Ricoh's DSLR product roadmap is stalled until they can figure out how expensive it will be to bring the FF camera to market.
09-21-2015, 12:53 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by THoog Quote
The problem is that market segment is already pretty well saturated, and getting into it (late), with the costs of developing a fourth mount and lens ecosystem, could be worse than missing it. If the rumors about Samsung giving up on cameras are true, there isn't enough APSC MILC business for all the players, including one that can leverage wireless technology and maximize volume.

Up to now, Ricoh/Pentax has made a point of pursuing their own niches and NOT going head-to-head with the competition, much to the frustration of some. For better or worse, the Q is their MILC offering. It has been popular in Japan and almost invisible elsewhere. How much more can they do with that platform, and is it worthwhile? We are due for another Q body, and if the previous pattern holds, this one should be more than a restyling. I fear that if we do see an upgraded Q in the next couple months, it will get a particularly hostile reception here just because it's not a FF DSLR.
It would be a real shame to dismiss a new Q out of mere petulance. Q is an interesting, unpretentious, capable take on MILC. The various tinkerers here have had a lot of fun adapting it and stretching its utility in creative ways.

Q Can Do!
09-21-2015, 01:05 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
It would be a real shame to dismiss a new Q out of mere petulance. Q is an interesting, unpretentious, capable take on MILC. The various tinkerers here have had a lot of fun adapting it and stretching its utility in creative ways.

Q Can Do!
I totally agree.
09-21-2015, 01:13 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
The FF was not postponed, it was expected to be launched to market end of 2015, written after CP+ 2015 press announcement, and since last week someone updated the www.pentax.com with the message "Full Frame by Pentax, 2016 spring debut". Saying that FF was postponed is abusive, it has only been delayed (or not) by unknown amount of time since we don't know what was the original target date and we also don't know what will be the actual release date.
Exactly my point!
09-21-2015, 05:57 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
The FF was not postponed, it was expected to be launched to market end of 2015, written after CP+ 2015 press announcement, and since last week someone updated the www.pentax.com with the message "Full Frame by Pentax, 2016 spring debut". Saying that FF was postponed is abusive, it has only been delayed (or not) by unknown amount of time since we don't know what was the original target date and we also don't know what will be the actual release date.
Sounds like semantics to me postponed / delayed. Why are you so sensitive as to call the use of one word "abusive?" We may not have known the specific target date, but I give you a quote from the authors of this very own forum: "Ricoh Imaging also stated in a press release that a Pentax full-frame will hit the market by the end of the year." Do you have an original interpretation for the meaning: "hit the market?"
09-21-2015, 06:16 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by mrNewt Quote
No, it hasn't been 2 years.
It has been two years since 2013 is when he joined the forum. Perhaps that is where the two years figure came from. As for rumors, those have been around since at least 2007 when I joined the forum.


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