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06-25-2008, 10:21 AM   #31
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If you get the Canon, you will take a big loss if you decide that you don't like it. The market is flooded with cheap used Canon lenses. The K20D on the other hand, since it is new and cheaper, would be easier to sell with less of a loss. The Pentax lenses also hold their value better then Canon.

Dave

QuoteOriginally posted by jfsavage Quote
I am considering either a Pentax K20D with 16-50 2.8 zoom or Canon EOS 5D with 24-70 2.8L. The factors I am considering for the two cameras are below, in order of importance to me. I shoot mostly outdoors, hiking and backpacking. I am very interested in any input you might have on the decision. I am posting this on both Canon and Pentax forums.



Advantages of K20D over EOS 5D

o Waterproof & Dustproof . I have lost two compact cameras to dust and I shoot outdoors. The Canon 'L' is sealed, but the 5D is not.

o Price. The K20D with lens is ~$1.6K (after $200 rebate), the 5D with lens is ~3.1K. (Refurbished version would be ~$2.7K, or with the 24-105 f4L is ~$2.6K). That is a huge price difference; the benefits of the 5D would have to be equally great.

o Ergonomics. The 'hyper program' (moving one of the wheels changes to shutter or aperture priority), the 'TAV priority' (user sets aperture + shutter speed, camera sets ISO) and the green button to set aperture and shutter in Manual mode are all very simple and great examples functionality designed for real world use.

o Weight. The Pentax is heavy 48 oz), but the Canon is even heavier (56 oz).

o The K20D is a new camera and the 5D is a little dated.

o ISO displayed in the viewfinder. This is most useful in the 'TAV Priority' mode.

o Auto bracketing set via hard button rather than buried in a menu





Advantages of EOS 5D over K20D

o Image quality. The 5D is lower resolution but the larger pixels and higher lens quality more than make up for it.

o Future of full frame. I thought that with increasing resolutions, the advantage of full frame would be reduced until I read about the issue of diffraction and pixel size. This implies that as resolutions rise, the sensor size will become more important, not less important. Diffraction Limited Photography: Pixel Size, Aperture and Airy Disks and Digital Camera Sensor Sizes: How it Influences Your Photography. The Canon is impacted by diffraction at f13, the Pentax at f7.6

o Quality Control. The Pentax lens is based on a Tokina design and I am reading lots of reports about quality problems.

o Lens quality. The Canon L is a much higher quality lens.

o Manufacturer viability. I am a little concerned about the long term viability of Pentax.

o Viewfinder. The Pentax has a larger viewfinder than most DSLRS, but the 5D is even bigger. Digital SLR Viewfinders: Size, Magnification, Coverage, Crop

o Lower noise at high ISO. This is exacerbated by the fact that the Canon is more sensitive and the Pentax less sensitive. (Pentax tends to underexpose - this could be a metering problem, or the fact that the sensor is actually lower ISO than indicated.)



A top 10 list that includes both is The Online Photographer: Summer '08: T.O.P. 10 New Camera Recommendations


06-25-2008, 02:38 PM   #32
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What The....?

QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
It is indeed very demanding for a good landscape camera. People used to use medium to large format to do professional landscape, just because of the highest possible resolution needed and also the dynamic range requirement is high.

As for 6mp, it is just too low a resolution to be considered to be adequate for any application now and actually it is just not enough.

IMHO, the K20D does have good resolution and colors, but the DR and noise are worst than the K10 and of course the competition. The 5D is unbeatable here for all the four performance aspects.
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT RH? WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO SHOW YOU AN IMAGE FROM THE CANON 1DS MKll COMPARED TO THE PENTAX K20D? I WILL IF YOU LIKE!
THE PENTAX K20D IS LITERALLY INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM THE 5D OR THE 1DS MKll.

IF I SHOW YOU THE PROOF WILL YOU PROMISE TO GO OUT AND ACTUALLY USE YOUR CAMERA?

BEN
06-25-2008, 04:48 PM   #33
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My Lorrrds, Ladieeees & Gennntlemennnn

And so we welcome our viewers to Madison Square Garden for this evening's spectacular heavy-weight contest ! In the left-hand corner, sporting a pair of his ex-sponsors red & black shorts and parading a beautifully-toned torso, weighing in at a healthy K20D Kilos we have PentaxForums big-hitting professional photographer and current champion Ben Kanarek, and in the right-hand corner we have.......

Oh no Ladieeees & Gennntlemennnn, it seems we've just heard it on good authority from RiceHigh's dressing-room that he is apparently refusing to come out fighting, on the grounds that he's about to receive a SEVERE pasting........

QuoteQuote:
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT RH? WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO SHOW YOU AN IMAGE FROM THE CANON 1DS MKll COMPARED TO THE PENTAX K20D? I WILL IF YOU LIKE ! THE PENTAX K20D IS LITERALLY INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM THE 5D OR THE 1DS MKll.
And so without further ado, we shall now return you to the studio.......

Best regards
Richard
06-25-2008, 05:09 PM   #34
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hey ben. if RH doesn't want a peek at the image comparison, i would definitely love to..

06-25-2008, 05:27 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
IMHO, the K20D does have good resolution and colors, but the DR and noise are worst than the K10 and of course the competition. The 5D is unbeatable here for all the four performance aspects.
K20D dynamic range is worse than th K10D?
Have you read DP Review's test on this?
Pentax K20D Review: 20. Photographic tests (DR):
06-25-2008, 07:49 PM   #36
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I just want the reciprocal link to the Canon forum that explains why 'the benefits of the 5D would be equally great'

Honestly, Pentax has in-body Shake Reduction. I'd never shop outside of Pentax, Sony, or Olympus for that reason alone.
06-26-2008, 01:24 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by Confused Quote
My Lorrrds, Ladieeees & Gennntlemennnn

And so we welcome our viewers to Madison Square Garden for this evening's spectacular heavy-weight contest ! In the left-hand corner, sporting a pair of his ex-sponsors red & black shorts and parading a beautifully-toned torso, weighing in at a healthy K20D Kilos we have PentaxForums big-hitting professional photographer and current champion Ben Kanarek, and in the right-hand corner we have.......

Oh no Ladieeees & Gennntlemennnn, it seems we've just heard it on good authority from RiceHigh's dressing-room that he is apparently refusing to come out fighting, on the grounds that he's about to receive a SEVERE pasting........



And so without further ado, we shall now return you to the studio.......

Best regards
Richard

LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL.......etc etc etc

Geez I love the Brit "Monte Python" sense of humour!!!!

Thanks Richard. I needed that. Really I did!

Thanks Again
Ben
06-26-2008, 01:39 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by PaengBonafe Quote
hey ben. if RH doesn't want a peek at the image comparison, i would definitely love to..
NOOOOOOO Problemo...I am now posting an advertisng shot for "EDF" Eletricite de France shot with the illustrious 16 megapixel Canon 1Ds Mkll and the horrible and insignificant piece of COW DUNG almost 15 megapixel Pentax K20D...

YOU WERE SO RIGHT RH...The K20D just got a thrashing....

Go to the the gallery for the comparison.

Ben

PS...Both compressed to shit to get in under the 1 meg restriction. Both at 5/12 compression in PS3. Both at 100 iso. One shot with the Canon 17-40 L lens my favorite zoom for Canon and the other with the 16-50 DA* Pentax my favourite zoom for Pentax.


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06-26-2008, 04:27 AM   #39
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Not sure about the overall market, but on the Buy/Sell section of POTN, quality used Canon glass always seems to sell for just a little less than new.
Just one example - ~$1190 new for the 24-70mm. (@B&H)
$955 for a used one - FS: Canon 24-70mm f/2.8L - Canon Digital Photography Forums

Sure, bodies take a hit (especially when the 5D replacement hits the market), but don't worry about the lenses.

QuoteOriginally posted by Big Dave Quote
If you get the Canon, you will take a big loss if you decide that you don't like it. The market is flooded with cheap used Canon lenses. The K20D on the other hand, since it is new and cheaper, would be easier to sell with less of a loss. The Pentax lenses also hold their value better then Canon.

Dave
06-26-2008, 07:26 AM   #40
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My decision…

First, I would like to thank everyone who took the time to respond to my posting. It was very helpful and informative.

For me, the K20D is the better of the two cameras (it may not be better for everyone). My consideration of the 5D was based primarily on the long term investment in lenses and the possibility that I may regret buying ‘cropped’ lenses.

While it is still possible that FF will replace cropped in the DSLR arena, I believe that I will be much happier with the K20D than the 5D for the next few years. I will try to favor FF Pentax lenses over cropped where possible, but for wide angle, this may be tricky.

As an aside, the review of the K20D at dpreview.com, which came out after my order, reinforces my decision. As one who intends to rely on post processing, the K20D’s low noise reduction in high ISO will suit me well. I would rather do my noise reduction at my leisure in a fast PC with a good monitor than handle it in camera.

I just have to hope that the lens I get is a good copy. I ordered from B&H, who have a very good reputation.
06-26-2008, 07:37 AM   #41
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Late to the dance, but what the heck...

You'll really enjoy the camera... no question. It's one of the better landscape cameras out there, as already indicated. My K10D is phenomenal for sunrise/sunset work too.

Regards,
Marc
06-26-2008, 07:40 AM   #42
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Ken Rockwell recently wrote an article re: 20x30" prints between Canon 5D, Nikon D3 and Nikon D40 - the gist of which was that depending on your viewing distance from the print - a bystander would not be able to tell the difference between the 3.

I would expect the K10D & the K20D to show exactly the same. Upon the utmost scrutiny the 5D did win though.

So if you are going to print mainly 10x15cm with some A4's thrown in and an occasional A3 then surely any modern 6mp DSLR and upwards will do the job

Once again - will the 5D be the right tool for what you will be using it for 80% of the time?
06-26-2008, 07:53 AM   #43
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Just take your used lens to one of these retailers and see how much you get. You won't get close to what they will resell it for. I am talking about individuals selling equipment. The more it cost new, the bigger the loss. Dealers can offer some sort of limited warranty on used equipment, which individuals can't. Of course selling used equipment has a lot to do with how well you market it and some luck.

Dave


QuoteOriginally posted by egordon99 Quote
Not sure about the overall market, but on the Buy/Sell section of POTN, quality used Canon glass always seems to sell for just a little less than new.
Just one example - ~$1190 new for the 24-70mm. (@B&H)
$955 for a used one - FS: Canon 24-70mm f/2.8L - Canon Digital Photography Forums

Sure, bodies take a hit (especially when the 5D replacement hits the market), but don't worry about the lenses.
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