Ricoh to dicsontinue the K-3II before FF introduction?

biz-engineer · 11-08-2015, 07:34 AM

Following several thread regarding the pixel shift advantage for the K-3, I understood that pixel shift is the best, and why.
Yes, pixel shift provide you with super resolution images, to the level of a D810, Sony A7RII or even 645z, but that's not all.
Thanks to pixel shift, you get that super resolution in a smaller and cheaper body than a full frame camera, and you don't need to spend any money to buy new lense for full frame, so pixel shift saves you a lot of money, space and weight. In addition, when the thin depth of field of a full frame kicks in preventing you images to be sharp, pixel shift on the other hand does increase the resolution while keeping the same depth of field.
As you know, there is no need to prove the effectiveness of pixel shift, since the pixel shift resolution advantage was shown by labs and actual prints comparison with full frame, backed-up by a lot of Pentaxian confirming that full frame is not as good as it seems (i.e FF is not the holy grail).

Now, I guess, if you are smart, since you can get more resolution and DR with a K-3II, you are not going to buy a Pentax full frame.
Therefore, I understand now why the Pentax full frame was postponed: Ricoh were afraid that the K-3II pixel shift would cannibalize the sales of the new Pentax full frame.
With the same line of thinking, I'm afraid that Ricoh will discontinue the K-3II before the release of the Pentax full frame in order to avoid cannibalization, do you think so, and why ?

sculptor666 · 11-08-2015, 07:40 AM

i think there's a difference between rumor and conjecture

thibs · 11-08-2015, 07:40 AM - **1 Like**

No way.
FF will get pixel shift too so this a moot point.
Also, even if K3-II introduction has been problematic, retiring it so soon would be a PR nightmare. Of they really did want to cancel it, they would have done so, killed it, and introduce the FF.
The fact they did not tends to prove my point IMO.

biz-engineer · 11-08-2015, 07:45 AM

I'm only being pragmatic here, trying to summarize arguments from other threads. And, so, I'm worried that people are going to buy the cheaper K-3II (having pixel shift and GPS, like the FF).

Nass · 11-08-2015, 07:51 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by biz-engineer

Following several thread regarding the pixel shift advantage for the K-3

... As someone who actually has one, I think this vastly overrates any pixel shift advantage. Yes it's useful in certain specific situations, ie landscapes, architecture, still life. But for many areas of photography that capture anything that moves (sports, bif, wildlife, news) or anything requiring flash (fashion, portraits, weddings), pixel shift isn't applicable. So in truth, it'd be surprising for this incredibly niche feature to be so overwhelming that it'd be such a threat to a full frame model that it'd need to be killed off.

And yes, I agree, the FF will get the same feature. Pixel-shift is just one of the firmware extras like HDR that's been developed for Pentax bodies, bound to be in the FF too

johnmflores · 11-08-2015, 08:10 AM - **2 Likes**

I also heard that the pyramids of Egypt were grain silos...

starbase218 · 11-08-2015, 08:11 AM

Originally posted by dcshooter

Troll thread title and a frankly preposterous premise considering Ricoh's goal of expanding its tiny market position and the fact that the FF will undoubtedly be much more expensive.

Well, saying the K-3 II will be discontinued based on a rumor is not more preposterous than saying the FF is to be named K-1 when, again, all you have is a rumor.

His reasoning, though, sounds ridiculous to me. There are so many cases when you want maximum sharpness in a single exposure, or with a moving subject, or even with longer exposures. Pixel-shift is really no substitute for the majority of shooting situations. Don't get me wrong, it's a nice feature, but nothing more.

Also, a bigger sensor does not get you a smaller DOF per se (yes I'm going to mention the dreaded E-word). A shot taken at 1/100, 50mm, ISO 100 and f/2.8 on APS-C would be as close to equivalent as possible to a shot taken at 1/100, 75mm, ISO 200 and f/4 on fullframe, assuming the same subject distance. And you can always close the aperture down. If you do, you might even notice even more sharpness because lenses generally perform better when stopped down. So, even that will help the FF image to be sharper.

Parallax · 11-08-2015, 08:13 AM

Neither news nor rumor.
Moved to the proper forum.

DeadJohn · 11-08-2015, 08:16 AM - **2 Likes**

This is neither news nor a rumor. It's wild speculation based on a poor understanding of pixel shift.

bobell69 · 11-08-2015, 08:23 AM

Can't' see the logic behind this rumour. Time to move on.

**UncleVanya** · 11-08-2015, 08:35 AM

Originally posted by starbase218

Well, saying the K-3 II will be discontinued based on a rumor is not more preposterous than saying the FF is to be named K-1 when, again, all you have is a rumor.

His reasoning, though, sounds ridiculous to me. There are so many cases when you want maximum sharpness in a single exposure, or with a moving subject, or even with longer exposures. Pixel-shift is really no substitute for the majority of shooting situations. Don't get me wrong, it's a nice feature, but nothing more.

There are pictures of the camera showing the name, so that's hardly in the same category of speculation... even if that turns out to be wrong it was based on pretty strong direct evidence.

But I think you are spot on as far as pixel shift, there is a narrow range of situations and subjects where it will be capable of shining. The real casualty might be sales of the 645z to commercial photographers who specialise in product shots in the studio. The ff with pixel shift may sway some in that line of work away from the more expensive 645z. Even that may only be a tiny fraction of sales.

The k3ii shares many features with the FF any number of which might drive sales, but Ricoh seems to be sticking to the Pentax model of packing features in at a rate higher than average.

**boriscleto** · 11-08-2015, 10:51 AM

Originally posted by johnmflores

I also heard that the pyramids of Egypt were grain silos...

Stonehenge is a doggy park...

BrianR · 11-08-2015, 11:06 AM - **2 Likes**

It will be more than discontinued, there will be a mandatory recall. Failure to surrender your k3ii to your dealer will cause Amazon-style drones to "reverse deliver" your camera when you aren't looking. There may be some bad publicity, but the increased FF sales will pay off for Ricoh/Pentax.

Originally posted by Nass

... or anything requiring flash (fashion, portraits, weddings), pixel shift isn't applicable.

As an aside, can I ask you about it's applicability to a still life lit with flash(es)?

starbase218 · 11-08-2015, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by UncleVanya

There are pictures of the camera showing the name, so that's hardly in the same category of speculation... even if that turns out to be wrong it was based on pretty strong direct evidence.

Got a link? The title of this article says it will be called the K-1, but the text says it may be called the K-1, and that is only based on a rumor at the show.

Anyway, I guess I'm just skeptical to rumors in general. Maybe because some time ago, there was a "rumor" on a forum which I could actually trace back to conjecture as well, by a single person. Nothing more. But enough people repeated that and soon enough it became a rumor.

rawr · 11-08-2015, 11:37 AM

No doubt the K-3 II will be discontinued at some point. All cameras eventually are.

But I doubt the arrival of the Pentax FF will kill off the K-3 II, just because the K-3 II may be an internal 'competitor' to the FF.

The 'debut' of full-frame in Nikon certainly didn't kill off Nikon's interest in making top-end APS-C cameras, or sharing technology and features between their FF and APS-C.

11-08-2015, 07:34 AM	#1
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,232	Ricoh to dicsontinue the K-3II before FF introduction? Following several thread regarding the pixel shift advantage for the K-3, I understood that pixel shift is the best, and why. Yes, pixel shift provide you with super resolution images, to the level of a D810, Sony A7RII or even 645z, but that's not all. Thanks to pixel shift, you get that super resolution in a smaller and cheaper body than a full frame camera, and you don't need to spend any money to buy new lense for full frame, so pixel shift saves you a lot of money, space and weight. In addition, when the thin depth of field of a full frame kicks in preventing you images to be sharp, pixel shift on the other hand does increase the resolution while keeping the same depth of field. As you know, there is no need to prove the effectiveness of pixel shift, since the pixel shift resolution advantage was shown by labs and actual prints comparison with full frame, backed-up by a lot of Pentaxian confirming that full frame is not as good as it seems (i.e FF is not the holy grail). Now, I guess, if you are smart, since you can get more resolution and DR with a K-3II, you are not going to buy a Pentax full frame. Therefore, I understand now why the Pentax full frame was postponed: Ricoh were afraid that the K-3II pixel shift would cannibalize the sales of the new Pentax full frame. With the same line of thinking, I'm afraid that Ricoh will discontinue the K-3II before the release of the Pentax full frame in order to avoid cannibalization, do you think so, and why ?

11-08-2015, 07:51 AM - 1 Like	#5
Nass Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: The British Isles Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,402	Originally posted by biz-engineer Following several thread regarding the pixel shift advantage for the K-3 ... As someone who actually has one, I think this vastly overrates any pixel shift advantage. Yes it's useful in certain specific situations, ie landscapes, architecture, still life. But for many areas of photography that capture anything that moves (sports, bif, wildlife, news) or anything requiring flash (fashion, portraits, weddings), pixel shift isn't applicable. So in truth, it'd be surprising for this incredibly niche feature to be so overwhelming that it'd be such a threat to a full frame model that it'd need to be killed off. And yes, I agree, the FF will get the same feature. Pixel-shift is just one of the firmware extras like HDR that's been developed for Pentax bodies, bound to be in the FF too Last edited by Nass; 11-08-2015 at 07:57 AM.

11-08-2015, 11:16 AM	#14
starbase218 Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Planet Earth, Sol system, Milky Way galaxy, Universe Posts: 1,119	Originally posted by UncleVanya There are pictures of the camera showing the name, so that's hardly in the same category of speculation... even if that turns out to be wrong it was based on pretty strong direct evidence. Got a link? The title of this article says it will be called the K-1, but the text says it may be called the K-1, and that is only based on a rumor at the show. Anyway, I guess I'm just skeptical to rumors in general. Maybe because some time ago, there was a "rumor" on a forum which I could actually trace back to conjecture as well, by a single person. Nothing more. But enough people repeated that and soon enough it became a rumor. Last edited by starbase218; 11-08-2015 at 11:32 AM.

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11-08-2015, 07:40 AM	#2
sculptor666 Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: PA Photos: Gallery Posts: 675	i think there's a difference between rumor and conjecture

11-08-2015, 07:40 AM - 1 Like	#3
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	No way. FF will get pixel shift too so this a moot point. Also, even if K3-II introduction has been problematic, retiring it so soon would be a PR nightmare. Of they really did want to cancel it, they would have done so, killed it, and introduce the FF. The fact they did not tends to prove my point IMO.

11-08-2015, 07:45 AM	#4
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,232 Original Poster	I'm only being pragmatic here, trying to summarize arguments from other threads. And, so, I'm worried that people are going to buy the cheaper K-3II (having pixel shift and GPS, like the FF).

11-08-2015, 08:10 AM - 2 Likes	#6
johnmflores Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Somerville, NJ Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,361	I also heard that the pyramids of Egypt were grain silos...

11-08-2015, 08:11 AM	#7
starbase218 Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Planet Earth, Sol system, Milky Way galaxy, Universe Posts: 1,119	Originally posted by dcshooter Troll thread title and a frankly preposterous premise considering Ricoh's goal of expanding its tiny market position and the fact that the FF will undoubtedly be much more expensive. Well, saying the K-3 II will be discontinued based on a rumor is not more preposterous than saying the FF is to be named K-1 when, again, all you have is a rumor. His reasoning, though, sounds ridiculous to me. There are so many cases when you want maximum sharpness in a single exposure, or with a moving subject, or even with longer exposures. Pixel-shift is really no substitute for the majority of shooting situations. Don't get me wrong, it's a nice feature, but nothing more. Also, a bigger sensor does not get you a smaller DOF per se (yes I'm going to mention the dreaded E-word). A shot taken at 1/100, 50mm, ISO 100 and f/2.8 on APS-C would be as close to equivalent as possible to a shot taken at 1/100, 75mm, ISO 200 and f/4 on fullframe, assuming the same subject distance. And you can always close the aperture down. If you do, you might even notice even more sharpness because lenses generally perform better when stopped down. So, even that will help the FF image to be sharper.

11-08-2015, 08:13 AM	#8
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,332	Neither news nor rumor. Moved to the proper forum.

11-08-2015, 08:16 AM - 2 Likes	#9
DeadJohn Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: New York Posts: 4,834	This is neither news nor a rumor. It's wild speculation based on a poor understanding of pixel shift.

11-08-2015, 08:23 AM	#10
bobell69 Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Courtenay BC Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 498	Can't' see the logic behind this rumour. Time to move on.

11-08-2015, 08:35 AM	#11
UncleVanya Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2014 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 28,407	Originally posted by starbase218 Well, saying the K-3 II will be discontinued based on a rumor is not more preposterous than saying the FF is to be named K-1 when, again, all you have is a rumor. His reasoning, though, sounds ridiculous to me. There are so many cases when you want maximum sharpness in a single exposure, or with a moving subject, or even with longer exposures. Pixel-shift is really no substitute for the majority of shooting situations. Don't get me wrong, it's a nice feature, but nothing more. There are pictures of the camera showing the name, so that's hardly in the same category of speculation... even if that turns out to be wrong it was based on pretty strong direct evidence. But I think you are spot on as far as pixel shift, there is a narrow range of situations and subjects where it will be capable of shining. The real casualty might be sales of the 645z to commercial photographers who specialise in product shots in the studio. The ff with pixel shift may sway some in that line of work away from the more expensive 645z. Even that may only be a tiny fraction of sales. The k3ii shares many features with the FF any number of which might drive sales, but Ricoh seems to be sticking to the Pentax model of packing features in at a rate higher than average.

11-08-2015, 10:51 AM	#12
boriscleto Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: North Syracuse, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,475	Originally posted by johnmflores I also heard that the pyramids of Egypt were grain silos... Stonehenge is a doggy park...

11-08-2015, 11:06 AM - 2 Likes	#13
BrianR Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Ontario Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,332	It will be more than discontinued, there will be a mandatory recall. Failure to surrender your k3ii to your dealer will cause Amazon-style drones to "reverse deliver" your camera when you aren't looking. There may be some bad publicity, but the increased FF sales will pay off for Ricoh/Pentax. Originally posted by Nass ... or anything requiring flash (fashion, portraits, weddings), pixel shift isn't applicable. As an aside, can I ask you about it's applicability to a still life lit with flash(es)?

11-08-2015, 11:37 AM	#15
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	No doubt the K-3 II will be discontinued at some point. All cameras eventually are. But I doubt the arrival of the Pentax FF will kill off the K-3 II, just because the K-3 II may be an internal 'competitor' to the FF. The 'debut' of full-frame in Nikon certainly didn't kill off Nikon's interest in making top-end APS-C cameras, or sharing technology and features between their FF and APS-C.