Ricoh to dicsontinue the K-3II before FF introduction?

stevebrot · 11-08-2015, 02:57 PM

Originally posted by rawr

With all the anti-drone sentiment around the world, I can see a revival looming for the sport of falconry.

Training an eagle or hawk to catch a drone should be easy. They seem to be naturals at it:

Eagle Kills Drone - YouTube

The idea of owning an eagle is strangely compelling.

Steve

Nicolas06 · 11-08-2015, 03:10 PM

Originally posted by biz-engineer

Depends how good the Pentax FF will be vs K-3II pixel shift, or vs a new APSC version (BSI ?). Given the visible drop in product release of Pentax products in 2015, it could be expected that there will be more products released in 2016.

You know what? If you don't print huge or crop heavily nobody will even see pixel shift. People say they help for landscape and product photography but really a 4K monitor will not be able to show you the difference. Neither will your photo printed in an Art book or used as a magazine cover.

BSI? Let say that for now BSI allows the A7R-II to get 0.3 EV vs the D810 and 0.4EV vs the A7R (0.5EV vs A7-II). Sure a good APSC BSI implementation will close the gap with that poor 6D to maybe 0.5EV and match a 5D Mark-II in low light while keeping more dynamic range and color deph, and that will be funny to see, even more if it come in higher MP but really that's exactly like CMOS vs CCD, only less dramatic difference.

But ultimately, APSC BSI vs FF BSI will keep 1.1EV difference. The same old arguments will stay and another biz-engineer will claim you can't do FF quality with an APSC, even if the new APSC do it toward a 5year old FF.

What count in the end if that you guys continue to buy gear. That all is required for this to continue. And stay motivated, apparently recently people lost their motivation and don't buy new camera at all. Manufacturers need more lobying !

biz-engineer · 11-08-2015, 03:24 PM

Originally posted by Nicolas06

People say they help for landscape and product photography but really a 4K monitor will not be able to show you the difference. Neither will your photo printed in an Art book or used as a magazine cover.

I fully agree, there's a bottleneck , that is not the camera but the display media often limited to 8bits depth and less than 4K (large prints excluded). The make a really nice photobook, an APSC camera is plenty, noone will see the difference with FF. For large prints, sport photos, the situation is different, sport is more demanding, even a FF without a fast lens will reach its limit.

Fenwoodian · 11-08-2015, 03:41 PM - **1 Like**

I hope that the K3II is discontinued, because doing so will hasten the release of Pentax's next generation APS-C camera.

I was one of the earliest adopters of the K3II and I owned it for a couple months. While I am a big believer in pixel shift, I intend to get my pixel shift fix with the Pentax Full Frame camera. I intend to shoot exclusively manual focus Zeiss ZK and Voightlander lenses on it for landscapes and still life photos. I print these photos up large and need high resolution files, and full frame with pixel shift will offer near medium format resolution/clarity.

For my family snaps and my website jpgs, I will continue to use a Pentax APS-C camera with auto-focus lenses.

After studying thousands of Pentax APS-C photos (and taking hundreds myself), I've decided that I greatly prefer the overall look of Pentax K5IIS photos over K3/K3II (I've owned both) photos. I'm not all that impressed by the sensor that's in the K3/K3II cameras. I plan to shoot my K5IIS camera until Pentax comes out with a new APS-C camera with a newer generation sensor. I really hope that the next Pentax APS-C camera has some of the magic pixie dust in it that the K5IIS has. In the meantime I can do just fine without another K3II.

Last edited by Fenwoodian; 11-08-2015 at 03:46 PM.

Bryce K · 11-08-2015, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by biz-engineer

Following several thread regarding the pixel shift advantage for the K-3, I understood that pixel shift is the best, and why.
Yes, pixel shift provide you with super resolution images, to the level of a D810, Sony A7RII or even 645z, but that's not all.
Thanks to pixel shift, you get that super resolution in a smaller and cheaper body than a full frame camera, and you don't need to spend any money to buy new lense for full frame, so pixel shift saves you a lot of money, space and weight. In addition, when the thin depth of field of a full frame kicks in preventing you images to be sharp, pixel shift on the other hand does increase the resolution while keeping the same depth of field.
As you know, there is no need to prove the effectiveness of pixel shift, since the pixel shift resolution advantage was shown by labs and actual prints comparison with full frame, backed-up by a lot of Pentaxian confirming that full frame is not as good as it seems (i.e FF is not the holy grail).

Now, I guess, if you are smart, since you can get more resolution and DR with a K-3II, you are not going to buy a Pentax full frame.
Therefore, I understand now why the Pentax full frame was postponed: Ricoh were afraid that the K-3II pixel shift would cannibalize the sales of the new Pentax full frame.
With the same line of thinking, I'm afraid that Ricoh will discontinue the K-3II before the release of the Pentax full frame in order to avoid cannibalization, do you think so, and why ?

NO...

Fenwoodian · 11-08-2015, 03:55 PM

Originally posted by rawr

The 'debut' of full-frame in Nikon certainly didn't kill off Nikon's interest in making top-end APS-C cameras, or sharing technology and features between their FF and APS-C.

I disagree. I'm a long time Nikon shooter. I still own a D7100. About the time Nikon started coming out with their current full frame line up, they de-emphasized development of their DX lenses. Also, Nikon has not had a "pro level" DX camera body since the ancient D300.

Their current top of the line DX body is the D7200. While a nice camera to be sure, it is clearly not a pro quality DX body. Many Nikon users have waited years (and are still waiting) for Nikon to develop a new pro calibur DX body (D400).

If Nikon wanted to continue DX dominance they'd have produced more DX lenses (to fill out the many holes in their DX lineup), and would have already released the D400 camera body. My D300 was so old and outdated that I tossed it in the trash while it was still fully functional.

starbase218 · 11-08-2015, 04:26 PM

Originally posted by UncleVanya

I've seen several pictures in the threads about the NYC show. However I honestly don't have the energy to find them. It isn't rumor. It is objective fact that the camera had a white label that pulled back enough to see what appears to be K-1.

Ok, maybe they should add that to the article on the front page.

**UncleVanya** · 11-08-2015, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by starbase218

Ok, maybe they should add that to the article on the front page.

Thats a good idea. Honestly Pentax may change their mind - but that's the best info to date.

Kunzite · 11-08-2015, 05:11 PM

"K-1" is different than the code name that circulated before. There's a good chance that's the final product name.

totsmuyco · 11-09-2015, 03:37 AM

I don't think they'll discontinue the K-3II. Such decision will only push us APSC users away. I don't have plans of going into FF now or in the future and I'm happy with APSC. I have a K-3II even though I haven't really explored everything, I think I can say that it performs well.

pathdoc · 11-09-2015, 10:34 AM

Originally posted by Fenwoodian

My D300 was so old and outdated that I tossed it in the trash while it was still fully functional.

Shame on you, letting a good camera go to waste.

stevebrot · 11-09-2015, 10:55 AM

Originally posted by pathdoc

Shame on you, letting a good camera go to waste.

I am thinking it may prove worthwhile to stake out his trash can.

Steve

Fenwoodian · 11-09-2015, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by pathdoc

Shame on you, letting a good camera go to waste.

Ha Ha..

I am continuously buying and selling cameras and lenses. The D300 was heavily used, beat up, and in real ugly condition. While it did work, if I sold it I'd risk disappointing the seller, which is something I will never do.

I considered giving it to one of my 11 grandkids, but I don't think any of them have any interest in using DSLR cameras as they all seem satisfied with using their Smart phones... Such is young people today..

bertwert · 11-09-2015, 11:04 AM

Originally posted by Fenwoodian

I considered giving it to one of my 11 grandkids, but I don't think any of them have any interest in using DSLR cameras as they all seem satisfied with using their Smart phones... Such is young people today..

If I was one of your grandkids I would want it, actually I wouldn't I prefer Pentax

Plus I am a young person, not even owning a smartphone...

VampyreGTX · 11-09-2015, 12:48 PM

Originally posted by Fenwoodian

I considered giving it to one of my 11 grandkids, but I don't think any of them have any interest in using DSLR cameras as they all seem satisfied with using their Smart phones... Such is young people today..

11?! wow, congrats on the grandkids! However, you never know, they may want a DSLR! My kids have iPhones (mainly used as 'iPod' style without phone service, except when going to camps etc.) But my son and daughter are fighting over what I do with my K10D, now that I have my K3. I'll have to start teaching them soon how to utilize the dSLR settings, and once I get a new 18-55 replacement, they can have the K10D and old lenses.

11-08-2015, 03:55 PM	#36
Fenwoodian Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,875	Originally posted by rawr The 'debut' of full-frame in Nikon certainly didn't kill off Nikon's interest in making top-end APS-C cameras, or sharing technology and features between their FF and APS-C. I disagree. I'm a long time Nikon shooter. I still own a D7100. About the time Nikon started coming out with their current full frame line up, they de-emphasized development of their DX lenses. Also, Nikon has not had a "pro level" DX camera body since the ancient D300. Their current top of the line DX body is the D7200. While a nice camera to be sure, it is clearly not a pro quality DX body. Many Nikon users have waited years (and are still waiting) for Nikon to develop a new pro calibur DX body (D400). If Nikon wanted to continue DX dominance they'd have produced more DX lenses (to fill out the many holes in their DX lineup), and would have already released the D400 camera body. My D300 was so old and outdated that I tossed it in the trash while it was still fully functional. Last edited by Fenwoodian; 11-08-2015 at 04:01 PM.

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11-08-2015, 02:57 PM	#31
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by rawr With all the anti-drone sentiment around the world, I can see a revival looming for the sport of falconry. Training an eagle or hawk to catch a drone should be easy. They seem to be naturals at it: Eagle Kills Drone - YouTube The idea of owning an eagle is strangely compelling. Steve

11-08-2015, 03:10 PM	#32
Nicolas06 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 4,854	Originally posted by biz-engineer Depends how good the Pentax FF will be vs K-3II pixel shift, or vs a new APSC version (BSI ?). Given the visible drop in product release of Pentax products in 2015, it could be expected that there will be more products released in 2016. You know what? If you don't print huge or crop heavily nobody will even see pixel shift. People say they help for landscape and product photography but really a 4K monitor will not be able to show you the difference. Neither will your photo printed in an Art book or used as a magazine cover. BSI? Let say that for now BSI allows the A7R-II to get 0.3 EV vs the D810 and 0.4EV vs the A7R (0.5EV vs A7-II). Sure a good APSC BSI implementation will close the gap with that poor 6D to maybe 0.5EV and match a 5D Mark-II in low light while keeping more dynamic range and color deph, and that will be funny to see, even more if it come in higher MP but really that's exactly like CMOS vs CCD, only less dramatic difference. But ultimately, APSC BSI vs FF BSI will keep 1.1EV difference. The same old arguments will stay and another biz-engineer will claim you can't do FF quality with an APSC, even if the new APSC do it toward a 5year old FF. What count in the end if that you guys continue to buy gear. That all is required for this to continue. And stay motivated, apparently recently people lost their motivation and don't buy new camera at all. Manufacturers need more lobying !

11-08-2015, 03:24 PM	#33
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,242 Original Poster	Originally posted by Nicolas06 People say they help for landscape and product photography but really a 4K monitor will not be able to show you the difference. Neither will your photo printed in an Art book or used as a magazine cover. I fully agree, there's a bottleneck , that is not the camera but the display media often limited to 8bits depth and less than 4K (large prints excluded). The make a really nice photobook, an APSC camera is plenty, noone will see the difference with FF. For large prints, sport photos, the situation is different, sport is more demanding, even a FF without a fast lens will reach its limit.

11-08-2015, 03:41 PM - 1 Like	#34
Fenwoodian Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,875	I hope that the K3II is discontinued, because doing so will hasten the release of Pentax's next generation APS-C camera. I was one of the earliest adopters of the K3II and I owned it for a couple months. While I am a big believer in pixel shift, I intend to get my pixel shift fix with the Pentax Full Frame camera. I intend to shoot exclusively manual focus Zeiss ZK and Voightlander lenses on it for landscapes and still life photos. I print these photos up large and need high resolution files, and full frame with pixel shift will offer near medium format resolution/clarity. For my family snaps and my website jpgs, I will continue to use a Pentax APS-C camera with auto-focus lenses. After studying thousands of Pentax APS-C photos (and taking hundreds myself), I've decided that I greatly prefer the overall look of Pentax K5IIS photos over K3/K3II (I've owned both) photos. I'm not all that impressed by the sensor that's in the K3/K3II cameras. I plan to shoot my K5IIS camera until Pentax comes out with a new APS-C camera with a newer generation sensor. I really hope that the next Pentax APS-C camera has some of the magic pixie dust in it that the K5IIS has. In the meantime I can do just fine without another K3II. Last edited by Fenwoodian; 11-08-2015 at 03:46 PM.

11-08-2015, 03:42 PM	#35
Bryce K Forum Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Richmond, TX Posts: 93	Originally posted by biz-engineer Following several thread regarding the pixel shift advantage for the K-3, I understood that pixel shift is the best, and why. Yes, pixel shift provide you with super resolution images, to the level of a D810, Sony A7RII or even 645z, but that's not all. Thanks to pixel shift, you get that super resolution in a smaller and cheaper body than a full frame camera, and you don't need to spend any money to buy new lense for full frame, so pixel shift saves you a lot of money, space and weight. In addition, when the thin depth of field of a full frame kicks in preventing you images to be sharp, pixel shift on the other hand does increase the resolution while keeping the same depth of field. As you know, there is no need to prove the effectiveness of pixel shift, since the pixel shift resolution advantage was shown by labs and actual prints comparison with full frame, backed-up by a lot of Pentaxian confirming that full frame is not as good as it seems (i.e FF is not the holy grail). Now, I guess, if you are smart, since you can get more resolution and DR with a K-3II, you are not going to buy a Pentax full frame. Therefore, I understand now why the Pentax full frame was postponed: Ricoh were afraid that the K-3II pixel shift would cannibalize the sales of the new Pentax full frame. With the same line of thinking, I'm afraid that Ricoh will discontinue the K-3II before the release of the Pentax full frame in order to avoid cannibalization, do you think so, and why ? NO...

11-08-2015, 04:26 PM	#37
starbase218 Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Planet Earth, Sol system, Milky Way galaxy, Universe Posts: 1,119	Originally posted by UncleVanya I've seen several pictures in the threads about the NYC show. However I honestly don't have the energy to find them. It isn't rumor. It is objective fact that the camera had a white label that pulled back enough to see what appears to be K-1. Ok, maybe they should add that to the article on the front page.

11-08-2015, 04:45 PM	#38
UncleVanya Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2014 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 28,446	Originally posted by starbase218 Ok, maybe they should add that to the article on the front page. Thats a good idea. Honestly Pentax may change their mind - but that's the best info to date.

11-08-2015, 05:11 PM	#39
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	"K-1" is different than the code name that circulated before. There's a good chance that's the final product name.

11-09-2015, 03:37 AM	#40
totsmuyco Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Iloilo City Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,276	I don't think they'll discontinue the K-3II. Such decision will only push us APSC users away. I don't have plans of going into FF now or in the future and I'm happy with APSC. I have a K-3II even though I haven't really explored everything, I think I can say that it performs well.

11-09-2015, 10:34 AM	#41
pathdoc Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2015 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,381	Originally posted by Fenwoodian My D300 was so old and outdated that I tossed it in the trash while it was still fully functional. Shame on you, letting a good camera go to waste.

11-09-2015, 10:55 AM	#42
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by pathdoc Shame on you, letting a good camera go to waste. I am thinking it may prove worthwhile to stake out his trash can. Steve

11-09-2015, 11:02 AM	#43
Fenwoodian Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,875	Originally posted by pathdoc Shame on you, letting a good camera go to waste. Ha Ha.. I am continuously buying and selling cameras and lenses. The D300 was heavily used, beat up, and in real ugly condition. While it did work, if I sold it I'd risk disappointing the seller, which is something I will never do. I considered giving it to one of my 11 grandkids, but I don't think any of them have any interest in using DSLR cameras as they all seem satisfied with using their Smart phones... Such is young people today..

11-09-2015, 11:04 AM	#44
bertwert Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Golden, BC Posts: 15,172	Originally posted by Fenwoodian I considered giving it to one of my 11 grandkids, but I don't think any of them have any interest in using DSLR cameras as they all seem satisfied with using their Smart phones... Such is young people today.. If I was one of your grandkids I would want it, actually I wouldn't I prefer Pentax Plus I am a young person, not even owning a smartphone...

11-09-2015, 12:48 PM	#45
VampyreGTX Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Chicago, IL, USA Photos: Albums Posts: 84	Originally posted by Fenwoodian I considered giving it to one of my 11 grandkids, but I don't think any of them have any interest in using DSLR cameras as they all seem satisfied with using their Smart phones... Such is young people today.. 11?! wow, congrats on the grandkids! However, you never know, they may want a DSLR! My kids have iPhones (mainly used as 'iPod' style without phone service, except when going to camps etc.) But my son and daughter are fighting over what I do with my K10D, now that I have my K3. I'll have to start teaching them soon how to utilize the dSLR settings, and once I get a new 18-55 replacement, they can have the K10D and old lenses.