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06-26-2008, 03:12 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Nor you even include the basic EXIF data neither.
RH...This is the last time I will respond to any of your posts...

Get a Life!

Ben

06-26-2008, 03:16 AM   #17
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Okay, you get a point and maybe able to K.O. me completely eventually. Feel better or even happy now? :-0

Thanks anyway, at least I can see Ben took his picture back in March 05. So, it is really a very old apple.

QuoteOriginally posted by ftpaddict Quote
Pathetic. Here's the non-existant EXIF.




Camera Make: Canon
Camera Model: Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II
Image Date: 2005:03:25 12:29:17
Flash Used: No
Focal Length: 21.0mm
Exposure Time: 0.0080 s (1/125)
Aperture: f/18.0
ISO equiv: 100
Metering Mode: Matrix
Exposure: Manual


Camera Make: PENTAX Corporation
Camera Model: PENTAX K20D
Image Date: 2008:04:23 20:47:50
Flash Used: No
Focal Length: 28.0mm (35mm equivalent: 42mm)
Exposure Time: 0.125 s (1/8)
Aperture: f/6.3
ISO equiv: 100
White Balance: Auto
Metering Mode: Matrix
Exposure: Manual
Exposure Mode: Manual
06-26-2008, 03:21 AM   #18
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I know where RH is going to go with this. He is going to scream diffraction at f18.0. So to put that concern to rest. Here is another image shot at f5.6. Check out the shadows. Horrible.

Oh and shot with what I consider one of the sharpest zooms on the market the Tamron 28-75 f2.8 lens at optimal aperture f 5.6.

Ben

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Last edited by benjikan; 06-26-2008 at 03:29 AM.
06-26-2008, 03:26 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Okay, you get a point and maybe able to K.O. me completely eventually. Feel better or even happy now? :-0

Thanks anyway, at least I can see Ben took his picture back in March 05. So, it is really a very old apple.
A camera is a camera RH, regardless of the date shot. We are comparing a Full Frame 16.7 mega pixel camera to a 14.6 cropped format sensor.

Use your eyes and judge for yourself.

Ben

06-26-2008, 03:40 AM   #20
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Here is another K20D image just to put the nail in the coffin. Again, compressed to shit to get in under the 1 mega pixel limit.


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06-26-2008, 03:51 AM   #21
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Talking to brick wall

Hi Ben,


Nice shots as always! When talking to this PERSON, You are talking to a PIXEL PEEPER/MEASURBATOR.. The only thing they KNOW how to SHOOT/TALK about are BRICK WALLS/FOCUS CHARTS....

Ben, I for one don't need to look for any differences. I look for the artistic value of the shot.... Some people don't have any imagination.... It is not the cameras/equipment to compare it is the photographer and style that I compare....

If this person doesn't like or has the NEED to compare and rip apart everything he sees/reads about then maybe HE/SHE should write a book a try to get it published...

Rudy
06-26-2008, 03:53 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by MnR Quote
Hi Ben,


Nice shots as always! When talking to this PERSON, You are talking to a PIXEL PEEPER/MEASURBATOR.. The only thing they KNOW how to SHOOT/TALK about are BRICK WALLS/FOCUS CHARTS....

Ben, I for one don't need to look for any differences. I look for the artistic value of the shot.... Some people don't have any imagination.... It is not the cameras/equipment to compare it is the photographer and style that I compare....

If this person doesn't like or has the NEED to compare and rip apart everything he sees/reads about then maybe HE/SHE should write a book a try to get it published...

Rudy
Thanks Rudy. Interesting, I am in the process of putting out a table top book. Hopfully for Next Spring of 2009.

Thanks
Ben

06-26-2008, 03:54 AM   #23
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I dont get what all the fuss is about. You two must have some personal issues to solve. None made, in my view, relevant cases.
This kind of bickering leads nowhere...

Ben, your a great photographer, but this is not a fair, new or even interesting comparison. You could take another pic with a p&s and see similar results, no? Are you really going to give a publisher a 5/12 compressed, 1MB image?
RH, you didn't make any argument... What does no text even mean?

I think that the only thing those pics prove is that:
> A better picture is better mainly because the subject matter is better. Then would come better use of light, focus and of course timing (more for non studio/fashion stuff).
> When you print small or downgrade a pics quality, all cameras are almost the same.

Surprise surprise, gear is not all important...
The K20D is a great camera, the 1Ds MkII is a great camera. The gear does what you need, you like to use it... well great, forget about the logo on the gear.

I dont care if you get upset about what I said. Its ok, means your passionate about it, but dont get angry at others because of it.
I'm but a lowly eager amateur photographer, I'm not qualified to judge technical difficulties and qualities of photographs or gear. I do liek to think I can judge on some common sense.
06-26-2008, 04:01 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by edumad Quote
I dont get what all the fuss is about. You two must have some personal issues to solve. None made, in my view, relevant cases.
This kind of bickering leads nowhere...

Ben, your a great photographer, but this is not a fair, new or even interesting comparison. You could take another pic with a p&s and see similar results, no? Are you really going to give a publisher a 5/12 compressed, 1MB image?
RH, you didn't make any argument... What does no text even mean?

I think that the only thing those pics prove is that:
> A better picture is better mainly because the subject matter is better. Then would come better use of light, focus and of course timing (more for non studio/fashion stuff).
> When you print small or downgrade a pics quality, all cameras are almost the same.

Surprise surprise, gear is not all important...
The K20D is a great camera, the 1Ds MkII is a great camera. The gear does what you need, you like to use it... well great, forget about the logo on the gear.

I dont care if you get upset about what I said. Its ok, means your passionate about it, but dont get angry at others because of it.
I'm but a lowly eager amateur photographer, I'm not qualified to judge technical difficulties and qualities of photographs or gear. I do liek to think I can judge on some common sense.
I rarely respond to RH. You have not been here long enough to understand the chronology of events. You also don't understand the motivation of RH nor his minions.

I have often acted in your position regarding RH and asked that he be treated with respect but he just broken the proverbial "Camels Back". As to the photographer vs the camera argument, I suggest you read the following post, as I am the last person to discuss technique on this forum unless pushed to do so.

A recent example:

"Both camera's are GREAT! Actually so is the K200D and the 450D and the D300 and the D70 as well as the D200 and the K100D as well as the 1Ds Mklll and the 350D and the Olympus E3 and the Fuji S5 etc etc etc etc....

What is YOUR criteria for a good camera? What are you looking for specifically? None of these camera's will improve your "TALENT, INGENUITY, VISION, EXPRESSION etc..." I have done pro shoots with everything from a Canon G5 5 megapixel camera to a Canon 1Ds Mkll, from a Canon 350D to a Pentax K20D. In the final analysis, if you know what the support of your image will be you can respond accordingly. In fact I am wrong...Most DSLR's or compacts can pull of some serious resolution if the limitations of the tools are understood.

Look...I was sponsored by Bronica, Fuji, Canon and Pentax. I didn't give a flying F..... about which was better, as the differences were really quite minute. In fact the less you know about what the application of your images are going to be, the less discerning you are about the reasons for your choices.

I know what I want and that is a camera that at 100-400 iso gives me the finest most subtle and smooth rendition possible. That is why for IQ, the Pentax K20D is amongst the finest camera's out there right now. I include the Canon 1Ds Mklll in that grouping. At 100 iso there is NOT a major difference in rendition between the two, especially for what I am shooting. There will be perhaps 10- 20 percent of the time a need to use a pro 39 megapixel back or the 1Ds Mklll. But in most cases, I would not use the Pentax for 300 dpi poster reproductions for advertising. In that case I might go with the Pro Back. When I did the "Swarovski" campaign, I used the pro back for the Full Fashion shots and a Canon 20D for the Macro Still Life images. I had 5 x 3 meter billboards shot with the Pentax K10D and the Canon 20D.

I do love the Pentax lenses...I really like the Canon lenses. But I prefer the Pentax. I like it because it is different, quirky, original and NOT too mainstream.

That is why I am going to stay with Pentax for the time being.

Now what are you going to do and why?

Ben"


Thanks
Ben
06-26-2008, 05:21 AM   #25
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What a bizarre forum thread.

RiceHigh, I understand your point in that there was nothing written about the photos that immediately pointed out what you were looking for, but honestly, what's with the attitude? I opened up the photos, like you did, looked at them and went "what?", like you did, but then (unlike you, apparently) I opened up the full size images and had a scan around at the quality of the pics.

It didn't take me long to realise that the MkII was crap with shadows, particularly with skin tones. The guy on the right in the toga has a pink leg in the light, and then it just stops and goes into a red / grey mush in the shadow. It looks like the camera has didn't have enough shadow information to recreate the colours properly.

Yeah, maybe the MkII photo is old, and taken at a tiny aperture, but it's not the sharpness or resolution that stands out, it's the range of tones visible. It only takes 2 minutes of gazing at one and then the other to see that.

My only question to you, Benjikan, is: did you develop both photos from RAW using the same RAW software (e.g. ACR), or was the Canon one developed when it was first shot? If you developed the Canon one when it was first shot, have you tried re-developing it using the same versions of the software as the K20D shot? RAW processing software has improved amazingly, so I was just curious about how much (if any) this was a factor.

Cheers.
06-26-2008, 05:38 AM   #26
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Love a cat fight...

..was it not Socrates who argued that the path to truth requires didactic discourse (place differing points-of-view on the table for study and let the best position get the prize).

Anyway... Let's say the photographer's interpretation of the subject/setting can be defined as a "capture" (camera, lens, sd card, lighting, ego, mood, etc). Is it not true that what I'm being asked to consider is a re-interpreted "release" of that "capture" by an output device that may be severely compromised (i.e. a cheap laptop with crappy video card, or even cheaper uncalibrated printer). Given the possible mischief created by these flaws, it's highly probable that the fragile subtleties of each argued position can be lost.

In all fairness, RH may have a collection of output interpretation variables (computer, OS, graphics card, monitor, eye glasses w/CA, ambient light, ego, etc) that are just better tuned to the favorable interpretation of a Canon Mark-x's output over his K100D. Does all of that mean RH wins? No!

In my view, Ben wins because he reinforces my values and I like him better.

With that, I'm ...nuff said...
06-26-2008, 05:43 AM   #27
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Okay, I raise a White Flag!

I must admit I lose totally in the fight. I confess and thus yet admit that Pentax K20D is the best DSLR ever made in the planet and Ben is the best photographer here at the PentaxForums or even in the world!

Are you guys crapping your hands now? ;-)


QuoteOriginally posted by Michaelina2 Quote
..was it not Socrates who argued that the path to truth requires didactic discourse (place differing points-of-view on the table for study and let the best position get the prize).

Anyway... Let's say the photographer's interpretation of the subject/setting can be defined as a "capture" (camera, lens, sd card, lighting, ego, mood, etc). Is it not true that what I'm being asked to consider is a re-interpreted "release" of that "capture" by an output device that may be severely compromised (i.e. a cheap laptop with crappy video card, or even cheaper uncalibrated printer). Given the possible mischief created by these flaws, it's highly probable that the fragile subtleties of each argued position can be lost.

In all fairness, RH may have a collection of output interpretation variables (computer, OS, graphics card, monitor, eye glasses w/CA, ambient light, ego, etc) that are just better tuned to the favorable interpretation of a Canon Mark-x's output over his K100D. Does all of that mean RH wins? No!

In my view, Ben wins because he reinforces my values and I like him better.

With that, I'm ...nuff said...
06-26-2008, 05:48 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by tophorus Quote
What a bizarre forum thread.

RiceHigh, I understand your point in that there was nothing written about the photos that immediately pointed out what you were looking for, but honestly, what's with the attitude? I opened up the photos, like you did, looked at them and went "what?", like you did, but then (unlike you, apparently) I opened up the full size images and had a scan around at the quality of the pics.

It didn't take me long to realise that the MkII was crap with shadows, particularly with skin tones. The guy on the right in the toga has a pink leg in the light, and then it just stops and goes into a red / grey mush in the shadow. It looks like the camera has didn't have enough shadow information to recreate the colours properly.

Yeah, maybe the MkII photo is old, and taken at a tiny aperture, but it's not the sharpness or resolution that stands out, it's the range of tones visible. It only takes 2 minutes of gazing at one and then the other to see that.

My only question to you, Benjikan, is: did you develop both photos from RAW using the same RAW software (e.g. ACR), or was the Canon one developed when it was first shot? If you developed the Canon one when it was first shot, have you tried re-developing it using the same versions of the software as the K20D shot? RAW processing software has improved amazingly, so I was just curious about how much (if any) this was a factor.

Cheers.
Both were processed in ACR. Both shot in RAW at 16 bit depth. No I have not put the Canon image through the newest version of ACR, as I haven't had the reason to do so.

Thanks
Ben
06-26-2008, 05:51 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by Michaelina2 Quote
..was it not Socrates who argued that the path to truth requires didactic discourse (place differing points-of-view on the table for study and let the best position get the prize).

Anyway... Let's say the photographer's interpretation of the subject/setting can be defined as a "capture" (camera, lens, sd card, lighting, ego, mood, etc). Is it not true that what I'm being asked to consider is a re-interpreted "release" of that "capture" by an output device that may be severely compromised (i.e. a cheap laptop with crappy video card, or even cheaper uncalibrated printer). Given the possible mischief created by these flaws, it's highly probable that the fragile subtleties of each argued position can be lost.

In all fairness, RH may have a collection of output interpretation variables (computer, OS, graphics card, monitor, eye glasses w/CA, ambient light, ego, etc) that are just better tuned to the favorable interpretation of a Canon Mark-x's output over his K100D. Does all of that mean RH wins? No!

In my view, Ben wins because he reinforces my values and I like him better.

With that, I'm ...nuff said...

My screen has been professionally calibrated using "Eye One Match" software and a Gretag Macbeth hardware scanner.

Ben
06-26-2008, 05:54 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
I must admit I lose totally in the fight. I confess and thus yet admit that Pentax K20D is the best DSLR ever made in the planet and Ben is the best photographer here at the PentaxForums or even in the world!

Are you guys crapping your hands now? ;-)
I think you mean "Clapping Your Hands"...Maybe you meant "Crapping Your Hands!"

Ben
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