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07-01-2008, 05:05 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by NicholasN Quote
I dont think the article is online as it came from a consumer magazine. I would scan it and post it but that would probably get me sued for Copyright infringement. Not sure what to do to get the article to you?
Not to worry. Just take it for granted sometimes that everything we read anymore is online.

07-01-2008, 05:27 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by davemdsn Quote
I read that even in the K20 the ADC only works in 14 bit for the extended dynamic range mode and runs in 12 bit otherwise. I miss film.
Good comment. Digital leaves too many things to be clarified.

Actually, the entire consideration is irrelevant. Because at whatever Bit-depth above 14, all the extra data is noise. For any camera. For any ISO. As of 2008.

Which doesn't mean the dynamic range can't be greater than 14. Just not at the pixel level.

If there wouldn't be any read-out noise, the K20D's pixel well capacity limits the usable bit depth for a near-black pixel to 14 Bit at ISO 100. But unfortunately, the read-out noise of the K20D isn't class-best.

Last edited by falconeye; 07-01-2008 at 05:35 PM.
07-01-2008, 08:50 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Good comment. Digital leaves too many things to be clarified.

Actually, the entire consideration is irrelevant. Because at whatever Bit-depth above 14, all the extra data is noise. For any camera. For any ISO. As of 2008.

Which doesn't mean the dynamic range can't be greater than 14. Just not at the pixel level.

Consider the way you veiw your picture. If you make prints, then the output is 8 bit.
Period.
If you look at your pictures on a consumer grade LCD (TN Panel), then likely you are looking at a 6 bit image.
07-01-2008, 08:53 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
Think you are mixing things up a bit. K10 used a 22bit ADC, K20 uses a 14bit ADC.
BOTH output a 12bit RAW file.
I said the K10D ADC has a 12-bit output, didn't I?

And what do you want to prove with the number of bits of the RAW file regarding the number of bits of the ADC?? Afterall, the number of bits of the RAW file can be *less than or equal to* the number of bits of the ADC *output*!

07-01-2008, 08:58 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
Are you sure you are an engineer????
QuoteOriginally posted by Tom M Quote
No, he's an injenear
I shall raise complaints to the Administrator if you guys don't withdraw your statements and apologise.

You're being unhelpful, stiring up troubles, imposing off-topic personal attacks (and of course which are uncivilised and rude) afterall.
07-01-2008, 09:02 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by davemdsn Quote
I read that even in the K20 the ADC only works in 14 bit for the extended dynamic range mode and runs in 12 bit otherwise. I miss film.
I think it is not. The 14-bit RAW data are always used. With the 200% DR, a different tone curve (less steepness for the S shape) is used.
07-02-2008, 02:57 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
I shall raise complaints to the Administrator if you guys don't withdraw your statements and apologise.

You're being unhelpful, stiring up troubles, imposing off-topic personal attacks (and of course which are uncivilised and rude) afterall.
Need a tissue?
07-02-2008, 07:34 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by NicholasN Quote
I noticed that the K10D features a 22-bit analogue to digital converter yet the K20D only has a 14-bit converter. Supposedly Pentax say that they reduced it to 14-bits for the K20D as the 22-bit converter was providing more information than necessary.

To me common sense would dictate that in the world of digital SLR the more information the better as ultimately we are looking for the best possible data collection by the Sensor.

Why have a 14.6MP sensor but cripple it with such a low A/D bit-rate?

Just a concern of mine, feel free to add your own thoughts.


Nick
Garbage in garbage out - If the noise floor of the sensor pixels/amplifiers is higher than the quantization noise of the ADC, there is no point in having the extra bits, as they will just be noise. 22 bits seemed like overkill to me in the K10D, they were never passed to the RAW output and probably at least 8 or so LSBs were never anything but noise - Probably the only reason for that 22 bit ADC in the K10D was either:
Marketing
Designing the hardware "just in case" before performing extensive hardware design testing and software design. It may have been cheaper to leave it in than design it out for that body, thus it was not until the K20D that the "overkill" was designed out.

A 14MP sensor will have slightly more noise per pixel than a 10MP one (notwithstanding other improvements, overall it sounds like the K20D has equal or better noise performance due to other sensor improvements), so reducing bit depth of an ADC won't "cripple" a 14MP sensor, since if nothing else is improved in the sensor, the 14MP sensor will have more noise and hence less need for a high-bit-depth ADC than a 10MP sensor.

07-02-2008, 11:30 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
I shall raise complaints to the Administrator if you guys don't withdraw your statements and apologise.

You're being unhelpful, stiring up troubles, imposing off-topic personal attacks (and of course which are uncivilised and rude) afterall.
I wrote to MIET to verify your credentials....
Membership - The IET
Prove the k20 output is 14bit......... My point was your posts were confusing. And why you have to be clearer as to what your talking about.
K10 probably processed in higher than 12 bit (probably 22bit) , K20 processes higher than 12 bit (probably 14bit). BOTH output 12bit RAW .... That's clear yet still has some assumptions not really even worth mentioning. K20 having a 14bit ADC really means nothing.
The K10Ds' ADC is actually of only 12 bit output, whereas the K20D's one is 14 bit. So, there is *real* improvement
That statement is garbage

Last edited by jeffkrol; 07-02-2008 at 11:43 AM.
07-02-2008, 11:48 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
imposing off-topic personal attacks (and of course which are uncivilised and rude) afterall.
QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
I wrote to MIET to verify your credentials....
Membership - The IET
Can we please all stop this?

@RH, you are right, the attack was personal and not up to the high standards of this forum. You sure have a limit what you can take.

@JK, we all sometimes have a hard time to stand RH's attitude. But this was really at the edge. And tolerance on both sides isn't in plenty supply

Can't you just exchange PMs (JK: you first, please) and settle this?
07-02-2008, 11:53 AM   #26
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I am just wondering if Pentax were getting ahead of themselves, with 22bit, hoping that software would be able to cope with 22bit? AS Nikon are rumoured to have a 22bit for the D3x as well. Maybe Adobe are working on a CS4 for this very situation but was not ready at the time the K10D came out?

Maybe once Adobe produce CS4 for this very processing, Pentax will go back to 22bit on the K30D and produce a firmware for the K10D to realise the true potential of 22bit RAW files....(I doubt about the firmware)
07-02-2008, 05:04 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Can we please all stop this?

@RH, you are right, the attack was personal and not up to the high standards of this forum. You sure have a limit what you can take.

@JK, we all sometimes have a hard time to stand RH's attitude. But this was really at the edge. And tolerance on both sides isn't in plenty supply

Can't you just exchange PMs (JK: you first, please) and settle this?
This "feud" goes back to the release of the very first Pentax DSLR. Mr. High was kicked off dpreview for basically calling people stupid if they didn't believe his tripe.
We've civilly conversed privately before but to only basically agree to disagree. His 127 Canon exposure trash is just that , trash and presented reams of backing evidence. his blog is the equivalent of a "tattler" type newspaper w/ little of value besides cliche attacks and hearsay research.I would like to believe that having an advanced education, and willing to prove it (unlike Mr. High who on numerous occasions I asked as to what kind of engineering degree he possessed, refused to answer) that I can see if a person has nothing more than a vendetta since the CEO of Pentax did not respond to his registered letter. Not to mention the shoddy treatment he received from his Hong Kong repair dept.
I've never asked that he be banned from this site, though probably in the best interest in this community, only because this is a free society (at least they lead us to believe this ) and he is entitled to his opinion.
At least i express my feelings honestly, and not veiled in innuendos.
Until he proves he has any credentials to back the authoritative way he presents himself I can never take him seriously.
I will GLADLY accept a banning here if you ban him with me (my martyr complex).
As to apology's for a minor, and to some, tasteless joke, sorry won't happen for the above mentioned reasons. Asking him to prove his "supposed" credentials is what a wise person would do in any walk of life.
Trust me his skin is VERY thick if you go through the merciless beatings he took at dpreview you will see that none of this really phases him. You should have seen the thread where he told an English professor that his use of the term "gears" ( as in "see a list of my gears") was the correct use of the English language and the native english speaking people were wrong. (as a courtesy and to correct some historically inaccurate "rememberences" on my part here's the orig thread. Judge for yourself.)
Re: forum.English.com ;-): Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review
Actually it was (still) a bit sad.
This cry of "foul" is only another cry for attention.
Though some think ignoring him is the only solution, I disagee. Best thing to do is offer counterpoint to his "measurebations".
I would be quite sad to find out that he was only a youth and then my humor may be a breach of etiquette and there are days his logic befits a teen more than an engineer.

Last edited by jeffkrol; 07-03-2008 at 07:06 AM.
07-04-2008, 04:44 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
This "feud" goes back to the release of the very first Pentax DSLR.
I thank you for providing this historical context. I was so naive.

From what I've seen here recently, I got the impression RH is just a guy who is overly perfectionist and never satisfied with anything. Guys like this can be engineers or scientists but of course, don't have to

Maybe, a regular but polite reminder to RH that it is bad style to repeat statements that have already been posted would do a better job. Maybe not.

And, no martyrdom, please
07-07-2008, 05:38 PM   #29
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Closing this thread for the sake of formality. This kind of junk doesn't have a place here on the forum.

Adam
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07-07-2008, 06:17 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by davemdsn Quote
I read that even in the K20 the ADC only works in 14 bit for the extended dynamic range mode and runs in 12 bit otherwise. I miss film.
That is correct.

Ben
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