health of Pentax as a brand.

bertwert · 01-17-2016, 10:01 AM

Originally posted by kenspo

I think its a bigger chance that Pentax are around then Nikon in 10 years..as things are at the moment. Thing can change fast, so nothing is certain.

Interesting...

TaoMaas · 01-17-2016, 10:06 AM

Originally posted by biz-engineer

I'd say that if your competitors sell 10 times more units of a similar product/target market, with the same price range, you never get out of that downward spiral, unless you get out of competition by not having the same type of product for the same type of end customer (as Sony did with the A7 series having 30% market share for the mirroless products).

The only way to lay that off is to have a more diversified product line...which Pentax/Ricoh has. I don't mean cameras, I mean binoculars, medical equipment, telescope optics, etc... Pentax used to be in a downward spiral, but I think that since they were purchased by Ricoh, pretty much everything has been on an upward spiral.

kenspo · 01-17-2016, 10:07 AM

Originally posted by bertwert

Interesting...

There is no secret, that Nikon is the company that bleeds the most at the moment. I knew it was bad, but was surprised over how bad it really is, after i got some inside info from a Nikon employee i know. A lot of staff has been laid off, sales are dropping + + Pentax are slowly growing under Ricoh. But as in any business, this can change later on. Thats why nothing is certain.

bertwert · 01-17-2016, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by kenspo

Thats why nothing is certain.

Including when the FF will come

kenspo · 01-17-2016, 10:15 AM

Its coming..thats the important thing!

dakight · 01-17-2016, 11:25 AM

I was in Camera World, Downtown PDX just last October and saw several Pentax Cameras on display and unless my memory is faulty (a distinct possibility) a red neon "Pentax" sign in one of the windows. I will say this though, the store is a shell of what it was 15 years ago. I was disappointed in what I found when I went in there; it just seemed barren where before it was buzzing with activity and stocked to the ceiling with product of all kinds.

biz-engineer · 01-17-2016, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by kenspo

There is no secret, that Nikon is the company that bleeds the most at the moment. I knew it was bad, but was surprised over how bad it really is, after i got some inside info from a Nikon employee i know. A lot of staff has been laid off, sales are dropping + + Pentax are slowly growing under Ricoh. But as in any business, this can change later on. Thats why nothing is certain.

When market shrinks due to maturity, all camera manufacturers have to reduce their spending budgets to align with sales budgets, including laying off staff if the levers of cost reductions other then manpower are not enough. Nikon and Canon can massively layoff while still having enough momentum and staff to continue product R&D, sales and marketing activities. Bare in mind that below a certain size, a company can't design, make and commercialize a full product line anymore. The merger of Pentax cameras with Ricoh cameras and restructuring certainly gave a bit of oxygen to keep alive for a few years, but they have put all of their limited resources to design one new camera that was postponed (shortage of resources) and they outsourced some of their lens design to third party. So, that indicates that Ricoh-Pentax camera are already reduced to the bones, well, if they have to downsize, that would means death. Before Nikon would run out of business, they'd first downsize to the size of Pentax and then die, but, Pentax would die way before them. There's one exception, that is if the camera market would massively go mirroless and Canikon would fail to adapt (that can happen), but then Sony would be the winning and Pentax would still fall way behind Canikon for this technology because Canon already have develop builtin PDAF on sensor (could be used for mirrorless), while Pentax does not have any of that. Let's be clear, a company does not file for bankruptcy due to financial losses, it usually file for bankruptcy due to sustained periods of negative cash flows and cash failure. Pentax is currently under the cash perfusion of mother Ricoh, which secure Pentax operations with a reserve of cash, otherwise it would not be possible to finance a full frame development for 18 months with the sales of the K-3II.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 01-17-2016 at 11:32 AM.

**Rondec** · 01-17-2016, 12:02 PM - **1 Like**

People keep mentioning the medical line up of Pentax, but as far as I know, that is completely separate from Pentax, the digital photography brand and is still owned by Hoya.

Ricoh definitely is a more diversified company than companies like Nikon and Olympus. Certainly Ricoh won't go away and as long as they are committed to investing in digital photography, I think Pentax is on solid footing. Ricoh really has a good philosophy, as far as I can tell -- slowly grow market share by making solid, well featured gear for slightly less than the competition. Advertising or not, I think we will see Pentax gain market share over time.

As to biz-engineer's gloom and doom, I think it is completely unwarranted. Nikon is in a lot more dangerous place than Ricoh, since the majority of their profits come from digital photography. A significant market contraction is less likely to hurt Pentax than Nikon, as Nikon has had a lot of trouble in the past with over producing cameras and having to sell gear at fire sale prices.

As to the rate of new products, that to me is fairly unimportant. Nikon releases new products all of the time, but you can hardly tell the difference between a camera like the D5200 and the D5300. They end up selling against themselves and the result is downward pressure on new camera prices. In general, Pentax releases cameras when there are new features or sensors available and there are fewer cameras from previous generations sitting on shelves unsold.

Anyway, a long statement to say that I do think Pentax has a solid future. I am no fortune teller, but they feel like a solid option and are unlikely to vanish any time soon.

RonHendriks1966 · 01-17-2016, 12:37 PM

Some how people think that there is a causale thing between Nikon in trouble and Pentax in trouble. There isn't. Both can go out of business or survive both or just one, wich ever. The surviver has to get it's cashflow in order and products attractive to customers. A company like Nikon depends on the stock market while Pentax has to depend on Ricoh if there would be any trouble in future.

All camera makers have these following camera's that are essentially the same. Wheater it is the Canon 600-series with the same 18mp sensor or Sony's SLT's. Pentax did that with K-30/K-50, WG-series and the GR - GR2. Not a big problem, but your market is smaller since upgrading is not so prominent from the same model. You sell a new camera to someone new, or to someone with a much older model that upgrades.

**monochrome** · 01-17-2016, 12:43 PM

It just never stops.

TaoMaas · 01-17-2016, 12:53 PM

Originally posted by monochrome

It just never stops.

You Tube

Kenntak · 01-17-2016, 12:57 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by monochrome

It just never stops.

Well, I guess there is something that one can always rely on.

honey bo bo · 01-17-2016, 01:30 PM

A friend of mine owns a Photography Shop. He sold Nikon, Canon, Minolta ,Olympus, Sony, Pentax , Samsung, Kodak, Go-Pro and more including all the after market stuff plus the expertise that went along with it all(30 Years). Gone is Blacks , Japan Cameras etc.etc. and all the little Expert Multi Shops that were once Here and apparently the Pentax dealers in all of State of Oregon!
He can no longer pay his Rent!!!! And he is the last one except for Walmarts Camera section in amongst the Cell Phones. You think that Pentax Nikon etc is going to survive without Him?
Enjoy what you have and don't count on FF II or for that matter FF!

**monochrome** · 01-17-2016, 01:51 PM - **1 Like**

I suspect we'd all better learn to buy sight-unseen from Amazon - it isn't just camera stores, it's retail in general.

honey bo bo · 01-17-2016, 02:14 PM

Originally posted by monochrome

sight-unseen from Amazon

Yes and that is burning his ass because their buyer (Amazons') gets to touch and feel and get a very expert run down and then they slither off and buy on line with free shipping incl and nothing else!
That is slowly going to come to an end in all retail as the Brick & Morter people are bled out and disappear.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Is there a Nikon forum as good as the Pentax forums?	PPPPPP42	Canon, Nikon, Sony, and Other Camera Brands	21	01-25-2014 01:32 AM
Is this a fair critique of the Pentax brand?	Pixley	Troubleshooting and Beginner Help	52	01-12-2011 12:54 PM
Is this as good of a deal as I think?	ckusnierek	Troubleshooting and Beginner Help	32	04-09-2010 07:24 AM
Shooting Raw with Pentax as a Matter of Fact	benjikan	Pentax DSLR Discussion	63	04-25-2007 06:50 AM
Pentax A* 300/2.8 as good as FA*?	roentarre	Pentax SLR Lens Discussion	5	11-23-2006 10:09 PM

01-17-2016, 10:01 AM	#46
bertwert Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Golden, BC Posts: 15,173	Originally posted by kenspo I think its a bigger chance that Pentax are around then Nikon in 10 years..as things are at the moment. Thing can change fast, so nothing is certain. Interesting...

01-17-2016, 10:06 AM	#47
TaoMaas Pentaxian Join Date: May 2007 Location: Oklahoma City Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,574	Originally posted by biz-engineer I'd say that if your competitors sell 10 times more units of a similar product/target market, with the same price range, you never get out of that downward spiral, unless you get out of competition by not having the same type of product for the same type of end customer (as Sony did with the A7 series having 30% market share for the mirroless products). The only way to lay that off is to have a more diversified product line...which Pentax/Ricoh has. I don't mean cameras, I mean binoculars, medical equipment, telescope optics, etc... Pentax used to be in a downward spiral, but I think that since they were purchased by Ricoh, pretty much everything has been on an upward spiral.

01-17-2016, 10:07 AM	#48
kenspo Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Oslo Posts: 2,207	Originally posted by bertwert Interesting... There is no secret, that Nikon is the company that bleeds the most at the moment. I knew it was bad, but was surprised over how bad it really is, after i got some inside info from a Nikon employee i know. A lot of staff has been laid off, sales are dropping + + Pentax are slowly growing under Ricoh. But as in any business, this can change later on. Thats why nothing is certain.

01-17-2016, 10:08 AM	#49
bertwert Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Golden, BC Posts: 15,173	Originally posted by kenspo Thats why nothing is certain. Including when the FF will come

01-17-2016, 10:15 AM	#50
kenspo Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Oslo Posts: 2,207	Its coming..thats the important thing!

01-17-2016, 11:25 AM	#51
dakight Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Phoenix, AZ Photos: Albums Posts: 1,216	I was in Camera World, Downtown PDX just last October and saw several Pentax Cameras on display and unless my memory is faulty (a distinct possibility) a red neon "Pentax" sign in one of the windows. I will say this though, the store is a shell of what it was 15 years ago. I was disappointed in what I found when I went in there; it just seemed barren where before it was buzzing with activity and stocked to the ceiling with product of all kinds.

01-17-2016, 11:26 AM	#52
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,225	Originally posted by kenspo There is no secret, that Nikon is the company that bleeds the most at the moment. I knew it was bad, but was surprised over how bad it really is, after i got some inside info from a Nikon employee i know. A lot of staff has been laid off, sales are dropping + + Pentax are slowly growing under Ricoh. But as in any business, this can change later on. Thats why nothing is certain. When market shrinks due to maturity, all camera manufacturers have to reduce their spending budgets to align with sales budgets, including laying off staff if the levers of cost reductions other then manpower are not enough. Nikon and Canon can massively layoff while still having enough momentum and staff to continue product R&D, sales and marketing activities. Bare in mind that below a certain size, a company can't design, make and commercialize a full product line anymore. The merger of Pentax cameras with Ricoh cameras and restructuring certainly gave a bit of oxygen to keep alive for a few years, but they have put all of their limited resources to design one new camera that was postponed (shortage of resources) and they outsourced some of their lens design to third party. So, that indicates that Ricoh-Pentax camera are already reduced to the bones, well, if they have to downsize, that would means death. Before Nikon would run out of business, they'd first downsize to the size of Pentax and then die, but, Pentax would die way before them. There's one exception, that is if the camera market would massively go mirroless and Canikon would fail to adapt (that can happen), but then Sony would be the winning and Pentax would still fall way behind Canikon for this technology because Canon already have develop builtin PDAF on sensor (could be used for mirrorless), while Pentax does not have any of that. Let's be clear, a company does not file for bankruptcy due to financial losses, it usually file for bankruptcy due to sustained periods of negative cash flows and cash failure. Pentax is currently under the cash perfusion of mother Ricoh, which secure Pentax operations with a reserve of cash, otherwise it would not be possible to finance a full frame development for 18 months with the sales of the K-3II. Last edited by biz-engineer; 01-17-2016 at 11:32 AM.

01-17-2016, 12:02 PM - 1 Like	#53
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,650	People keep mentioning the medical line up of Pentax, but as far as I know, that is completely separate from Pentax, the digital photography brand and is still owned by Hoya. Ricoh definitely is a more diversified company than companies like Nikon and Olympus. Certainly Ricoh won't go away and as long as they are committed to investing in digital photography, I think Pentax is on solid footing. Ricoh really has a good philosophy, as far as I can tell -- slowly grow market share by making solid, well featured gear for slightly less than the competition. Advertising or not, I think we will see Pentax gain market share over time. As to biz-engineer's gloom and doom, I think it is completely unwarranted. Nikon is in a lot more dangerous place than Ricoh, since the majority of their profits come from digital photography. A significant market contraction is less likely to hurt Pentax than Nikon, as Nikon has had a lot of trouble in the past with over producing cameras and having to sell gear at fire sale prices. As to the rate of new products, that to me is fairly unimportant. Nikon releases new products all of the time, but you can hardly tell the difference between a camera like the D5200 and the D5300. They end up selling against themselves and the result is downward pressure on new camera prices. In general, Pentax releases cameras when there are new features or sensors available and there are fewer cameras from previous generations sitting on shelves unsold. Anyway, a long statement to say that I do think Pentax has a solid future. I am no fortune teller, but they feel like a solid option and are unlikely to vanish any time soon.

01-17-2016, 12:37 PM	#54
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Some how people think that there is a causale thing between Nikon in trouble and Pentax in trouble. There isn't. Both can go out of business or survive both or just one, wich ever. The surviver has to get it's cashflow in order and products attractive to customers. A company like Nikon depends on the stock market while Pentax has to depend on Ricoh if there would be any trouble in future. All camera makers have these following camera's that are essentially the same. Wheater it is the Canon 600-series with the same 18mp sensor or Sony's SLT's. Pentax did that with K-30/K-50, WG-series and the GR - GR2. Not a big problem, but your market is smaller since upgrading is not so prominent from the same model. You sell a new camera to someone new, or to someone with a much older model that upgrades.

01-17-2016, 12:43 PM	#55
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	It just never stops.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

01-17-2016, 12:57 PM - 1 Like	#57
Kenntak Senior Member Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 198	Originally posted by monochrome It just never stops. Well, I guess there is something that one can always rely on.

01-17-2016, 01:30 PM	#58
honey bo bo Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 768	A friend of mine owns a Photography Shop. He sold Nikon, Canon, Minolta ,Olympus, Sony, Pentax , Samsung, Kodak, Go-Pro and more including all the after market stuff plus the expertise that went along with it all(30 Years). Gone is Blacks , Japan Cameras etc.etc. and all the little Expert Multi Shops that were once Here and apparently the Pentax dealers in all of State of Oregon! He can no longer pay his Rent!!!! And he is the last one except for Walmarts Camera section in amongst the Cell Phones. You think that Pentax Nikon etc is going to survive without Him? Enjoy what you have and don't count on FF II or for that matter FF!

01-17-2016, 01:51 PM - 1 Like	#59
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	I suspect we'd all better learn to buy sight-unseen from Amazon - it isn't just camera stores, it's retail in general.

01-17-2016, 02:14 PM	#60
honey bo bo Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 768	Originally posted by monochrome sight-unseen from Amazon Yes and that is burning his ass because their buyer (Amazons') gets to touch and feel and get a very expert run down and then they slither off and buy on line with free shipping incl and nothing else! That is slowly going to come to an end in all retail as the Brick & Morter people are bled out and disappear.