Undocumented camera behavior using pop up flash.

BrianR · 01-31-2016, 09:38 PM

If you've got a method that you're happy with for the future, that's great

.

Being self-employed, I hope you get to schedule a nap or two into your day

mcgregni · 02-01-2016, 12:12 PM

Its an interesting problem you encountered, one of assumption and mis-information,whoever can be blamed. It just goes to show how complex the mix of camera modes and lens to camera contacts make the whole business of working with flash ...... explains why I ended up with 90 pages in my Guide!

I agree with the points made earlier about how much we can expect from a camera manual. I know Pentax could do more to explain the 'putting it into practice' aspects, but the manuals would end up being a great mishmash without much clear focus I fear. The Flash Guide was intended to supplement the manual by providing the practical context, and I did sort of cover this area in the following section, which I'll quote here .....

THE CAMERA : FLASH & EXPOSURE MODES (Page 28)
Now that we’ve considered the general principles of controlling flash and ambient exposures, I’m going to look at how the different camera flash and exposure modes specifically act to change the camera’s response, and practical ways to take control.

It is worth noting that on the Pentax DSLR’s there is no actual ‘Flash On / Off’ setting. Whether the flash will fire or not is dependent solely on raising or lowering the built-in flash, or fitting and switching on an accessory flashgun. There will always be one flash mode active at all times when a flash is ready to fire, depending on what is set on the flash mode display. Remember also that the Built-In flash and accessory flashgun will equally be affected by these Camera Flash and Exposure modes, but any additional mode settings on a flashgun will take priority over the camera set options.

Apart from the latest K-S2 & K3 cameras the Built-In flash units are P-TTL controlled only (the two latest models listed offer a 2-stage manual option also). Regardless of any camera exposure settings made, it will fire at a power determined by the P-TTL system. You are able to apply -2 to +1 stops of flash compensation to the flash exposure from the built-in unit, but this will be in relation to the camera determined flash exposure level. With an accessory flashgun you have additional flash compensation range for P-TTL working, and more extensive output control with its ‘Manual’ flash mode.

I've taken a note of this issue and will definitely try and address it more directly in the next update to the guide with some specific examples using the lens aperture ring as you have described.

**clackers** · 02-01-2016, 05:27 PM

Just so you know, the K-S1 has the same manual popup flash option as the K-S2 and K-3, Mcgregni.

mcgregni · 02-02-2016, 02:09 AM

Thanks, Il add that in as well

Doe anyone know about the wireless triggering feature on the K-S1 and 2 ....? I have a faint memory that I'd read it wasn't available ...?

**clackers** · 02-02-2016, 02:58 AM

When I bought it, I saw the manual had a cross next to 'Slave' in the flash capabilities table, but I now don't think that means it can't act as a P-TTL trigger ... for starters, it says it can do that Contrast-Control-Sync thing.

mcgregni · 02-02-2016, 04:04 AM

Ok, thanks ... Needs some further looking into. Clearly the pop.up is not going to'act' as a slave, but I wonder if that indication in the manual is really saying that it can't 'trigger a slave' .... ?

Any K-S1 and K-S2 owners ..... Are you able to use wireless P-TTL with your built-in flashes to control off-camera P-TTL slaves? I guess another clue would be if the camera flash modes panel offers the Wireless option .....

**Cee Cee** · 02-02-2016, 08:48 AM

Originally posted by mcgregni

Its an interesting problem you encountered, one of assumption and mis-information,whoever can be blamed. It just goes to show how complex the mix of camera modes and lens to camera contacts make the whole business of working with flash ...... explains why I ended up with 90 pages in my Guide!

I agree with the points made earlier about how much we can expect from a camera manual. I know Pentax could do more to explain the 'putting it into practice' aspects, but the manuals would end up being a great mishmash without much clear focus I fear. The Flash Guide was intended to supplement the manual by providing the practical context, and I did sort of cover this area in the following section, which I'll quote here .....

THE CAMERA : FLASH & EXPOSURE MODES (Page 28)
Now that we’ve considered the general principles of controlling flash and ambient exposures, I’m going to look at how the different camera flash and exposure modes specifically act to change the camera’s response, and practical ways to take control.

It is worth noting that on the Pentax DSLR’s there is no actual ‘Flash On / Off’ setting. Whether the flash will fire or not is dependent solely on raising or lowering the built-in flash, or fitting and switching on an accessory flashgun. There will always be one flash mode active at all times when a flash is ready to fire, depending on what is set on the flash mode display. Remember also that the Built-In flash and accessory flashgun will equally be affected by these Camera Flash and Exposure modes, but any additional mode settings on a flashgun will take priority over the camera set options.

Apart from the latest K-S2 & K3 cameras the Built-In flash units are P-TTL controlled only (the two latest models listed offer a 2-stage manual option also). Regardless of any camera exposure settings made, it will fire at a power determined by the P-TTL system. You are able to apply -2 to +1 stops of flash compensation to the flash exposure from the built-in unit, but this will be in relation to the camera determined flash exposure level. With an accessory flashgun you have additional flash compensation range for P-TTL working, and more extensive output control with its ‘Manual’ flash mode.

I've taken a note of this issue and will definitely try and address it more directly in the next update to the guide with some specific examples using the lens aperture ring as you have described.

Hi mcgregni, thanks for your interest & input, I have your PDF guide on my desktop, I've only skimmed it, and promised myself I'd get back and read it properly, a pitty I didn't do that before my unfortuate debacle, it might have saved me a lot of grief.

having considered all this for the last couple of days, and knowing what I now know about the popup flash I went back and re read the manual P236 237 & 238 " Using the inbuilt flash" and I can't see anything at all which would alert a novice or inexperienced flash user that the inbuilt flash will behave differently with an A type lens and a non A lens, and nothing at all to indicate when using an A lens with the camera set to M mode that the flash will still be operateing in an automatic mode. There may be clues to this in other parts of the manual but I would say that If I want to know about the operation of the inbuilt flash I go to the index look up the section to do with flash and go to the page marked "using the in built flash."

I'm an Electronics tech and have been involved in diagnosing & repair of complex electronic equipment & systems for the last 40 odd years, In that time I've used & read countless owners manuals, operation guides, service manuals, engineering updates etc. I have 3 filing cabinets + a number of boxes full of manuals & currently amost 20 gig of pdf manuals on file. I know a good Manual when I see one, My K30 manual is not a good one. Having said that, I thinks it's probably adequate, as the camera is well thought out and intuative to use, most of the manual is hardly needed at all, when I got my K30 I just whent straight out and started shootng for a few weeks before even picking up the manual. I think what is not intuative is the operation of the fash system, be it inbuilt or external flash. I think most inexperienced users would agree. That's one area where the extra level of detail & explaination certainly is needed. I'm sure there may some other areas as well that could use some extra detail, but it doesnt have to be across the whole manual, just a few extra sentences where needed a few pages overall, it doesn't have to blow out the size manual at all just extra detail or background in the areas were people may struggle

Having read and used a lot of manuals ( & installation instructions for computer gear for that matter) one continual area of frustration is that by their very nature manuals are written by people that fully understand the equipment or system they are writing about, So the author can write a sentence or make a statement that to him is perfecly understandable, coveys exactly the infomation he's trying to get across and is totally unambiguous, but the reader who doesn't yet understand the the whole system & the implications of what he has just read, can be left scratchihg their head and not understanding. A few well chosen words at this point, in way of exra explanation can make all the difference

As an example, in this thread, several people tried to tell me exactly what was happening (and please don't misinterpret this as some sort of critisim or shifting of blame for me not getting it) by making the statement that my problem had been caused by preflash, something that I had dismissed because of a wrong asumption that I should be able to detect a preflash. So I was resistant to that suggestion because of my wrong asumption, and lack of understanding of the flash system. If the preflash suggestion had of been accompanied by the extra infomation that the preflash & flash happen so quickly that it's not really detectable with the naked eye, the bulb above my head would have lit up and the rusty old gears would have turned and within a couple of seconds I would have been on board with the Idea. tic tic tic..."That explains it all "

cheers
CC.

edit: by the way, for those that are interested - the time between preflash and flash is about 105 msec. (about 1/10 sec)
the pulse width of the preflash is about 25-30% that of a full power flash, not prepared to make any assumptions regarding power but possibly 25-30%.
My "dumb" strobes (no peflash setting, infact no controlls at all) have no detectable delay at all.(another wrong assumption)

PS. among some of my tech friends we have a saying " assumptions are the mother of all f--k ups" yet I still get caught on a regular basis.

Last edited by Cee Cee; 02-02-2016 at 10:00 AM.

BrianR · 02-02-2016, 09:34 AM

Originally posted by clackers

Just so you know, the K-S1 has the same manual popup flash option as the K-S2 and K-3, Mcgregni.

That's awesome and hopeful for future 'low end' models

.

Originally posted by Cee Cee

There may be clues to this in other parts of the manual but I would say that If I want to know about the operation of the inbuilt flash I go to the index look up the section to do with flash and go to the page marked "using the in built flash."

There are two sections titled "Using the Built-in Flash", the other is page 66, a sub section of "Basic Operations". The page 66 section references the section on page 235, but unfortunately the reverse is not true. Only the page 66 section is mentioned in the rather poor index (searchable pdf for the win!).

Originally posted by Cee Cee

If the very first preflash suggestion had of been accompanied by the extra infomation that the preflash & flash happen so quickly that it's not really detectable with the naked eye,

The preflash is a funny thing, some people are very sensitive to it and every picture of them taken with an auto p-ttl flash ends up catching them blinking from the pre-flash. Others have no such problems. There may also be a dependency on camera and flash model. The pre-flash is very obvious to me on my k100d and k5iis. Without this thread I would never have known some people can't see it even if they're looking for it, so that may come in handy for diagnosing problems in the future

.

I think we have a similar thing with SDM auto-focus. I've seen reports that it's completely silent and others say there is a slight buzz, even with the same body&lens combo. The difference is likely the ears, and if you're someone who can't pick up the frequency you could go a long time not knowing about it.

**Cee Cee** · 02-02-2016, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by BrianR

There are two sections titled "Using the Built-in Flash", the other is page 66, a sub section of "Basic Operations". The page 66 section references the section on page 235, but unfortunately the reverse is not true. Only the page 66 section is mentioned in the rather poor index (searchable pdf for the win!).

thanks for alerting me to that, missed it all together.

re the preflash, If I try hard I can sometimes get a hint of preflash, but only once or twice out of 20 shots and only from the side, not through the veiwfinder, the other thing I find interesting is the intensity doesn't look all that different than a full power single flash, perhaps thats due to looking a 2 flashes in quick succession and/or the non linear response of the eye to intensity variations - but I'm making assumptions again

BrianR · 02-02-2016, 10:42 AM

Try turning on the 2-second timer. The pre-flash is when you click the shutter, the main flash is during the exposure. This has caused one or two questions on these forums

. Not so great for a shoot involving moving people, but assuming your slaved flashes have time to recharge during this 2-seconds this could be another way to use it to sync with 'dumb' optical slaves. It also works this way with mirror lock up - first click triggers the pre-flash, second click triggers the main flash, which could be used to give slave flashes time to recover (but your k-30 doesn't have a dedicated mirror lock up mode afaik).

With the 12-second timer, the pre-flash happens right before the main exposure.

A quick test with my flash meter put the preflash one stop lower than the main flash at full power (k5iis). Some flash genuises might claim to be able to detect this difference by eye, I sure as heck can't and definitely not if they're in rapid succession

.

---------- Post added 02-02-16 at 12:49 PM ----------

Originally posted by Cee Cee

thanks for alerting me to that, missed it all together.

I can be overly zealous at defending things that I think are unfairly being criticized, and sometimes have to remind myself how 'fair criticism' can be very subjective. So I want to apologize if I've come off as overly 'blamey'

. I know how easy it is to miss a little detail or how frustrating it can be if you've read something in that wasn't there or if you just didn't know something that 'everyone' else did. So yeah, sorry if I've added to your frustration along your path to illumination

.

PDL · 02-02-2016, 11:33 AM

Using flash in manual on a manual lens, regardless of the flash (pop up, external) you need to calculate the proper f/stop using the guide number of the flash. If you are taking the lens off of A or are using a lens that does not have an A setting then the camera CAN NOT get the f/stop from the lens. The flash will default to full.

Read up on how to use guide numbers and calculate f/stops based on distance from the flash to the subject. I would suggest that you use the X setting which sets the shutter speed to 1/180 of a second (on my K10D/K20D0). Personally I hate the on board flash, the sun does not shine from my forehead as it were. My setup is using up to three Yongnuo YN560-III speedlights controlled by a Yongnuo YN560-TX. I use my Gossen Light meter to determine the proper f/stop and control the flash ratios using the controller on camera. Strictly old school manual flash control much like I have been using for the past 40+ years. Learn the craft and take control, you will be amazed.

The Elitist - formerly known as PDL

**clackers** · 02-02-2016, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by PDL

Personally I hate the on board flash, the sun does not shine from my forehead as it were.

Sure, but it's perfectly fine as fill, though, which would be the majority use of onboard flash in daylight.

Cranked down to -2 stops, it can also simply add catchlights to your bounced key light, otherwise our subjects can have those black shark eyes.

Originally posted by PDL

My setup is using up to three Yongnuo YN560-III speedlights controlled by a Yongnuo YN560-TX.

I have that same setup to draw on, PDL, amazingly cheap and effective.

For HSS/P-TTL off camera, I use an Acon radio trigger - again, cheap and effective.

**BigMackCam** · 02-02-2016, 03:45 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by clackers

Cranked down to -2 stops, it can also simply add catchlights to your bounced key light, otherwise our subjects can have those black shark eyes.

"And, you know, the thing about a shark... he's got lifeless eyes. Black eyes. Like a doll's eyes."

**Cee Cee** · 02-02-2016, 05:00 PM

Originally posted by BrianR

I can be overly zealous at defending things that I think are unfairly being criticized, and sometimes have to remind myself how 'fair criticism' can be very subjective. So I want to apologize if I've come off as overly 'blamey'. I know how easy it is to miss a little detail or how frustrating it can be if you've read something in that wasn't there or if you just didn't know something that 'everyone' else did. So yeah, sorry if I've added to your frustration along your path to illumination.

no need at all to be sorry, I don't see it like that. I was genuinely appreciative, after reading that section however it doesn't really shed any more light on the problem

**clackers** · 02-02-2016, 05:15 PM

Originally posted by BigMackCam

"And, you know, the thing about a shark... he's got lifeless eyes. Black eyes. Like a doll's eyes."

I like Michael Caine's quote about being in Jaws 4:

"I have never seen it, but by all accounts it is terrible. However, I have seen the house that it built, and it is terrific.”

01-31-2016, 09:38 PM	#46
BrianR Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Ontario Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,332	If you've got a method that you're happy with for the future, that's great. Being self-employed, I hope you get to schedule a nap or two into your day

02-02-2016, 09:34 AM	#53
BrianR Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Ontario Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,332	Originally posted by clackers Just so you know, the K-S1 has the same manual popup flash option as the K-S2 and K-3, Mcgregni. That's awesome and hopeful for future 'low end' models. Originally posted by Cee Cee There may be clues to this in other parts of the manual but I would say that If I want to know about the operation of the inbuilt flash I go to the index look up the section to do with flash and go to the page marked "using the in built flash." There are two sections titled "Using the Built-in Flash", the other is page 66, a sub section of "Basic Operations". The page 66 section references the section on page 235, but unfortunately the reverse is not true. Only the page 66 section is mentioned in the rather poor index (searchable pdf for the win!). Originally posted by Cee Cee If the very first preflash suggestion had of been accompanied by the extra infomation that the preflash & flash happen so quickly that it's not really detectable with the naked eye, The preflash is a funny thing, some people are very sensitive to it and every picture of them taken with an auto p-ttl flash ends up catching them blinking from the pre-flash. Others have no such problems. There may also be a dependency on camera and flash model. The pre-flash is very obvious to me on my k100d and k5iis. Without this thread I would never have known some people can't see it even if they're looking for it, so that may come in handy for diagnosing problems in the future. I think we have a similar thing with SDM auto-focus. I've seen reports that it's completely silent and others say there is a slight buzz, even with the same body&lens combo. The difference is likely the ears, and if you're someone who can't pick up the frequency you could go a long time not knowing about it.

02-02-2016, 10:42 AM	#55
BrianR Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Ontario Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,332	Try turning on the 2-second timer. The pre-flash is when you click the shutter, the main flash is during the exposure. This has caused one or two questions on these forums. Not so great for a shoot involving moving people, but assuming your slaved flashes have time to recharge during this 2-seconds this could be another way to use it to sync with 'dumb' optical slaves. It also works this way with mirror lock up - first click triggers the pre-flash, second click triggers the main flash, which could be used to give slave flashes time to recover (but your k-30 doesn't have a dedicated mirror lock up mode afaik). With the 12-second timer, the pre-flash happens right before the main exposure. A quick test with my flash meter put the preflash one stop lower than the main flash at full power (k5iis). Some flash genuises might claim to be able to detect this difference by eye, I sure as heck can't and definitely not if they're in rapid succession. ---------- Post added 02-02-16 at 12:49 PM ---------- Originally posted by Cee Cee thanks for alerting me to that, missed it all together. I can be overly zealous at defending things that I think are unfairly being criticized, and sometimes have to remind myself how 'fair criticism' can be very subjective. So I want to apologize if I've come off as overly 'blamey'. I know how easy it is to miss a little detail or how frustrating it can be if you've read something in that wasn't there or if you just didn't know something that 'everyone' else did. So yeah, sorry if I've added to your frustration along your path to illumination.

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02-01-2016, 12:12 PM	#47
mcgregni Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Surrey, England Posts: 2,603	Its an interesting problem you encountered, one of assumption and mis-information,whoever can be blamed. It just goes to show how complex the mix of camera modes and lens to camera contacts make the whole business of working with flash ...... explains why I ended up with 90 pages in my Guide! I agree with the points made earlier about how much we can expect from a camera manual. I know Pentax could do more to explain the 'putting it into practice' aspects, but the manuals would end up being a great mishmash without much clear focus I fear. The Flash Guide was intended to supplement the manual by providing the practical context, and I did sort of cover this area in the following section, which I'll quote here ..... THE CAMERA : FLASH & EXPOSURE MODES (Page 28) Now that we’ve considered the general principles of controlling flash and ambient exposures, I’m going to look at how the different camera flash and exposure modes specifically act to change the camera’s response, and practical ways to take control. It is worth noting that on the Pentax DSLR’s there is no actual ‘Flash On / Off’ setting. Whether the flash will fire or not is dependent solely on raising or lowering the built-in flash, or fitting and switching on an accessory flashgun. There will always be one flash mode active at all times when a flash is ready to fire, depending on what is set on the flash mode display. Remember also that the Built-In flash and accessory flashgun will equally be affected by these Camera Flash and Exposure modes, but any additional mode settings on a flashgun will take priority over the camera set options. Apart from the latest K-S2 & K3 cameras the Built-In flash units are P-TTL controlled only (the two latest models listed offer a 2-stage manual option also). Regardless of any camera exposure settings made, it will fire at a power determined by the P-TTL system. You are able to apply -2 to +1 stops of flash compensation to the flash exposure from the built-in unit, but this will be in relation to the camera determined flash exposure level. With an accessory flashgun you have additional flash compensation range for P-TTL working, and more extensive output control with its ‘Manual’ flash mode. I've taken a note of this issue and will definitely try and address it more directly in the next update to the guide with some specific examples using the lens aperture ring as you have described.

02-01-2016, 05:27 PM	#48
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Just so you know, the K-S1 has the same manual popup flash option as the K-S2 and K-3, Mcgregni.

02-02-2016, 02:09 AM	#49
mcgregni Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Surrey, England Posts: 2,603	Thanks, Il add that in as well Doe anyone know about the wireless triggering feature on the K-S1 and 2 ....? I have a faint memory that I'd read it wasn't available ...?

02-02-2016, 02:58 AM	#50
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	When I bought it, I saw the manual had a cross next to 'Slave' in the flash capabilities table, but I now don't think that means it can't act as a P-TTL trigger ... for starters, it says it can do that Contrast-Control-Sync thing.

02-02-2016, 04:04 AM	#51
mcgregni Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Surrey, England Posts: 2,603	Ok, thanks ... Needs some further looking into. Clearly the pop.up is not going to'act' as a slave, but I wonder if that indication in the manual is really saying that it can't 'trigger a slave' .... ? Any K-S1 and K-S2 owners ..... Are you able to use wireless P-TTL with your built-in flashes to control off-camera P-TTL slaves? I guess another clue would be if the camera flash modes panel offers the Wireless option .....

02-02-2016, 08:48 AM	#52
Cee Cee Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Glenroy, Melbourne Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,441 Original Poster	Originally posted by mcgregni Its an interesting problem you encountered, one of assumption and mis-information,whoever can be blamed. It just goes to show how complex the mix of camera modes and lens to camera contacts make the whole business of working with flash ...... explains why I ended up with 90 pages in my Guide! I agree with the points made earlier about how much we can expect from a camera manual. I know Pentax could do more to explain the 'putting it into practice' aspects, but the manuals would end up being a great mishmash without much clear focus I fear. The Flash Guide was intended to supplement the manual by providing the practical context, and I did sort of cover this area in the following section, which I'll quote here ..... THE CAMERA : FLASH & EXPOSURE MODES (Page 28) Now that we’ve considered the general principles of controlling flash and ambient exposures, I’m going to look at how the different camera flash and exposure modes specifically act to change the camera’s response, and practical ways to take control. It is worth noting that on the Pentax DSLR’s there is no actual ‘Flash On / Off’ setting. Whether the flash will fire or not is dependent solely on raising or lowering the built-in flash, or fitting and switching on an accessory flashgun. There will always be one flash mode active at all times when a flash is ready to fire, depending on what is set on the flash mode display. Remember also that the Built-In flash and accessory flashgun will equally be affected by these Camera Flash and Exposure modes, but any additional mode settings on a flashgun will take priority over the camera set options. Apart from the latest K-S2 & K3 cameras the Built-In flash units are P-TTL controlled only (the two latest models listed offer a 2-stage manual option also). Regardless of any camera exposure settings made, it will fire at a power determined by the P-TTL system. You are able to apply -2 to +1 stops of flash compensation to the flash exposure from the built-in unit, but this will be in relation to the camera determined flash exposure level. With an accessory flashgun you have additional flash compensation range for P-TTL working, and more extensive output control with its ‘Manual’ flash mode. I've taken a note of this issue and will definitely try and address it more directly in the next update to the guide with some specific examples using the lens aperture ring as you have described. Hi mcgregni, thanks for your interest & input, I have your PDF guide on my desktop, I've only skimmed it, and promised myself I'd get back and read it properly, a pitty I didn't do that before my unfortuate debacle, it might have saved me a lot of grief. having considered all this for the last couple of days, and knowing what I now know about the popup flash I went back and re read the manual P236 237 & 238 " Using the inbuilt flash" and I can't see anything at all which would alert a novice or inexperienced flash user that the inbuilt flash will behave differently with an A type lens and a non A lens, and nothing at all to indicate when using an A lens with the camera set to M mode that the flash will still be operateing in an automatic mode. There may be clues to this in other parts of the manual but I would say that If I want to know about the operation of the inbuilt flash I go to the index look up the section to do with flash and go to the page marked "using the in built flash." I'm an Electronics tech and have been involved in diagnosing & repair of complex electronic equipment & systems for the last 40 odd years, In that time I've used & read countless owners manuals, operation guides, service manuals, engineering updates etc. I have 3 filing cabinets + a number of boxes full of manuals & currently amost 20 gig of pdf manuals on file. I know a good Manual when I see one, My K30 manual is not a good one. Having said that, I thinks it's probably adequate, as the camera is well thought out and intuative to use, most of the manual is hardly needed at all, when I got my K30 I just whent straight out and started shootng for a few weeks before even picking up the manual. I think what is not intuative is the operation of the fash system, be it inbuilt or external flash. I think most inexperienced users would agree. That's one area where the extra level of detail & explaination certainly is needed. I'm sure there may some other areas as well that could use some extra detail, but it doesnt have to be across the whole manual, just a few extra sentences where needed a few pages overall, it doesn't have to blow out the size manual at all just extra detail or background in the areas were people may struggle Having read and used a lot of manuals ( & installation instructions for computer gear for that matter) one continual area of frustration is that by their very nature manuals are written by people that fully understand the equipment or system they are writing about, So the author can write a sentence or make a statement that to him is perfecly understandable, coveys exactly the infomation he's trying to get across and is totally unambiguous, but the reader who doesn't yet understand the the whole system & the implications of what he has just read, can be left scratchihg their head and not understanding. A few well chosen words at this point, in way of exra explanation can make all the difference As an example, in this thread, several people tried to tell me exactly what was happening (and please don't misinterpret this as some sort of critisim or shifting of blame for me not getting it) by making the statement that my problem had been caused by preflash, something that I had dismissed because of a wrong asumption that I should be able to detect a preflash. So I was resistant to that suggestion because of my wrong asumption, and lack of understanding of the flash system. If the preflash suggestion had of been accompanied by the extra infomation that the preflash & flash happen so quickly that it's not really detectable with the naked eye, the bulb above my head would have lit up and the rusty old gears would have turned and within a couple of seconds I would have been on board with the Idea. tic tic tic..."That explains it all " cheers CC. edit: by the way, for those that are interested - the time between preflash and flash is about 105 msec. (about 1/10 sec) the pulse width of the preflash is about 25-30% that of a full power flash, not prepared to make any assumptions regarding power but possibly 25-30%. My "dumb" strobes (no peflash setting, infact no controlls at all) have no detectable delay at all.(another wrong assumption) PS. among some of my tech friends we have a saying " assumptions are the mother of all f--k ups" yet I still get caught on a regular basis. Last edited by Cee Cee; 02-02-2016 at 10:00 AM.

02-02-2016, 10:29 AM	#54
Cee Cee Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Glenroy, Melbourne Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,441 Original Poster	Originally posted by BrianR There are two sections titled "Using the Built-in Flash", the other is page 66, a sub section of "Basic Operations". The page 66 section references the section on page 235, but unfortunately the reverse is not true. Only the page 66 section is mentioned in the rather poor index (searchable pdf for the win!). thanks for alerting me to that, missed it all together. re the preflash, If I try hard I can sometimes get a hint of preflash, but only once or twice out of 20 shots and only from the side, not through the veiwfinder, the other thing I find interesting is the intensity doesn't look all that different than a full power single flash, perhaps thats due to looking a 2 flashes in quick succession and/or the non linear response of the eye to intensity variations - but I'm making assumptions again

02-02-2016, 11:33 AM	#56
PDL Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: PNW USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,128	Using flash in manual on a manual lens, regardless of the flash (pop up, external) you need to calculate the proper f/stop using the guide number of the flash. If you are taking the lens off of A or are using a lens that does not have an A setting then the camera CAN NOT get the f/stop from the lens. The flash will default to full. Read up on how to use guide numbers and calculate f/stops based on distance from the flash to the subject. I would suggest that you use the X setting which sets the shutter speed to 1/180 of a second (on my K10D/K20D0). Personally I hate the on board flash, the sun does not shine from my forehead as it were. My setup is using up to three Yongnuo YN560-III speedlights controlled by a Yongnuo YN560-TX. I use my Gossen Light meter to determine the proper f/stop and control the flash ratios using the controller on camera. Strictly old school manual flash control much like I have been using for the past 40+ years. Learn the craft and take control, you will be amazed. The Elitist - formerly known as PDL

02-02-2016, 03:42 PM	#57
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by PDL Personally I hate the on board flash, the sun does not shine from my forehead as it were. Sure, but it's perfectly fine as fill, though, which would be the majority use of onboard flash in daylight. Cranked down to -2 stops, it can also simply add catchlights to your bounced key light, otherwise our subjects can have those black shark eyes. Originally posted by PDL My setup is using up to three Yongnuo YN560-III speedlights controlled by a Yongnuo YN560-TX. I have that same setup to draw on, PDL, amazingly cheap and effective. For HSS/P-TTL off camera, I use an Acon radio trigger - again, cheap and effective.

02-02-2016, 03:45 PM - 1 Like	#58
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,673	Originally posted by clackers Cranked down to -2 stops, it can also simply add catchlights to your bounced key light, otherwise our subjects can have those black shark eyes. "And, you know, the thing about a shark... he's got lifeless eyes. Black eyes. Like a doll's eyes."

02-02-2016, 05:00 PM	#59
Cee Cee Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Glenroy, Melbourne Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,441 Original Poster	Originally posted by BrianR I can be overly zealous at defending things that I think are unfairly being criticized, and sometimes have to remind myself how 'fair criticism' can be very subjective. So I want to apologize if I've come off as overly 'blamey'. I know how easy it is to miss a little detail or how frustrating it can be if you've read something in that wasn't there or if you just didn't know something that 'everyone' else did. So yeah, sorry if I've added to your frustration along your path to illumination. no need at all to be sorry, I don't see it like that. I was genuinely appreciative, after reading that section however it doesn't really shed any more light on the problem

02-02-2016, 05:15 PM	#60
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by BigMackCam "And, you know, the thing about a shark... he's got lifeless eyes. Black eyes. Like a doll's eyes." I like Michael Caine's quote about being in Jaws 4: "I have never seen it, but by all accounts it is terrible. However, I have seen the house that it built, and it is terrific.”