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02-13-2007, 11:47 AM   #16
racinsince55
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I'm quite sure that this is something that I will not try.



02-13-2007, 12:22 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by racinsince55 Quote
I'm quite sure that this is something that I will not try.

I'm with you racin, I have absolutely NO desire to mess with any of that stuff. Sometimes it's good to know there are professionals out there that I can pay to take those kinds of steps.

NaCl(and yes, I'm one of those guys who isn't afraid to ask for directions either)H2O
02-14-2007, 08:50 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by NaClH2O Quote
I'm with you racin, I have absolutely NO desire to mess with any of that stuff. Sometimes it's good to know there are professionals out there that I can pay to take those kinds of steps.

NaCl(and yes, I'm one of those guys who isn't afraid to ask for directions either)H2O
Wise and sensible move!

I've just had some info through from my Pentax contacts, interpreted from Japanese English.

From what is said, it is clear that " ... users who access the debug mode are treading on somewhat thin ice".


While there still isn't any official word from the Customer Service section, who are in best position to comment on the warranty invalidation issue, the engineer is saying "... that because of the variables when adjusting front and back focus, it would be quite easy to upset the focus in other areas, like other lenses and other colour temperatures..."


Quote: "If it works for a user, then fine. However there are big risks!"

My thoughts:

It is pretty obvious that the AF settings are done to cover a nominal setting which will be "reasonably accurate" for most lenses and each camera is probably set up in the factory with a "control" lens that is in the middle of all the tolerance parameters.

The only reason for deviation from the norm will be due to poor QC control, or tolerance shifts after set-up due to shipping damage or faulty components. It is a well know fact that shipping by air in de-pressurised and unheated cargo holds can cause damage to sensitive electro-mechanical parts. Most air shipments today are made in temp controlled pressurised holds, but not all.

However, resetting the front and back focus for a lens that could be at one end of tolerances and at a "out of norm" colour temperature, could cause manifest problems overall, so great, even extreme, care should be exercised if you are prepared to undertake it. Take a note of all the settings "before" adjustment so it can be reset in the event of trouble. - May the force be with you!

I suspect that it is possible that future firmware upgrades will not have the debug mode accessable, Pentax Service centres will have a separate service firmware patch that will enable resetting adjustments to be made by service centres only.

Last edited by Richard Day; 02-14-2007 at 08:52 AM. Reason: moving final paragraph to rephrase better
02-14-2007, 09:07 AM   #19
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Richard, Very well said, I was going to say something similar, but without the Pentax quote. I have to believe that if a lens is off a bit that the lens needs calibration not the camera.

Les

02-14-2007, 09:17 AM   #20
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Thanks Richard. Wise words as usual. I work in the NYC subway system for one of the car manufacturers. All of the new cars have multiple computer guided software systems. I know for an absolute fact that by trying to change just one parameter in a software system can bollix up the whole works. My company and our subcontractors had to hide parts of our software from NYC transit, because when they try to "tweak" the system the whole damn train can be down for the better part of several days until we can find the problem. I've gotten to the point where my motto is "If I didn't design the S/W than I ain't gonna mess with it"

NaCl(like I said there are people who I can pay to fix a problem and I'd rather pay them a little than a lot)H2O
02-14-2007, 10:12 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Brew1brew Quote
I have to believe that if a lens is off a bit that the lens needs calibration not the camera.
My testing did not bear this out. My DA 70mm front focus on my K10D and two other K10Ds in the store (tested on real object, not 45 degree chart). But it focuses perfectly on 2 separate K100Ds in the store - how do you explain that?

QuoteQuote:
I suspect that it is possible that future firmware upgrades will not have the debug mode accessable, Pentax Service centres will have a separate service firmware patch that will enable resetting adjustments to be made by service centres only.
I hope not, otherwise I'll just keep my v1.1.
Because even if you change the settings at service center, you still run into the problem of affecting other lenses. This debug mode is the only way to customize settings to each lens. I hate messing around with debug mode or service menu as well. I wish K10D is more accurate in AF under all circumstances. But at this point, I can't think of any other way I can get the accuracy I want in critical focusing in all my lenses under various lightings.
09-19-2007, 10:37 PM   #22
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For those tracking this service menu stuff, I've got a K100D Super and none of the instructions work. You can display the firmware by turning the camera on while holding "MENU" button, but I cannot determine the keystrokes to bring up the service menu.
09-19-2007, 11:59 PM   #23
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Implications Now & In The Future

QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
K10D Service Menu and AF Adjust!

M.S. Shin has posted this at dpreview:

[Usual word of caution: you can seriously screw up your camera if you fool around with the settings!]

Just terrific. I'm now envisioning thousands of used cameras on the market with screwed up internal program settings because geeks reading about these service menus on the internet messed around with things they are totally unqualified to handle properly. Of course, every one of these self-styled know-it-alls (usually hacks) either thought they could do it better/cheaper than the pros or, like children, simply could not resist playing around with things. As far as I'm concerned, the value of used Pentax cameras just dropped dramatically.

stewart

09-20-2007, 03:58 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by juice Quote
For those tracking this service menu stuff, I've got a K100D Super and none of the instructions work. You can display the firmware by turning the camera on while holding "MENU" button, but I cannot determine the keystrokes to bring up the service menu.
Have you tried the K100D sequence? Read here for the instruction:

self focus adjust for dl,ds,ds2,k100d.: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

Nonetheless, it will not be a big surprise if Pentax has changed the sequence, so as to avoid people from getting into the engineering mode.

Also, if you don't encounter any problem, why bother and take risk? My opinion is just that one should know what to do and why it is needed before going into such menu.
09-21-2007, 02:56 AM   #25
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QuoteQuote:
Also, if you don't encounter any problem, why bother and take risk? My opinion is just that one should know what to do and why it is needed before going into such menu.
You're absolutely right, there is no need for me to access the menu. Just curious.. I've been programming since age 9 and always pulling things apart to see what makes them tick I have however learnt enough to know not to fiddle with settings I don't understand on a perfectly functioning device. I was simply interested what was "under the hood"!

QuoteQuote:
Have you tried the K100D sequence?
Tried both K10D and K100D sequences and many other random button presses but nothing. The K100D Super has different firmware from K100D (mine is v1.00) so I guess they changed it again.
09-21-2007, 02:47 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by stewart_photo Quote
Just terrific. I'm now envisioning thousands of used cameras on the market with screwed up internal program settings because geeks reading about these service menus on the internet messed around with things they are totally unqualified to handle properly.
stewart

These posts get dumber and dumber. Pentax can plainly see many K10D owners want ALL their lenses to focus properly.

Nikon D300, and Canon 40D have menu interfaces to fine tune the AF for specific lenses, with a memory for a certain number. They've given it to their customers. No questions asked. No big giant back and forth with threads containing a vast majority of many posts voting to have this feature, and Pentax vowing to not allow us to have it, and it just keeps popping up.

Since it is purely a firmware update, it is simply ridiculous to not give us a RESETTABLE easy to use menu interface to access this focus calibration ability with memory for a specific number of lenses.

This way it CAN'T screw up AF with other lenses as it would revert back to default. If Nikon and Canon can give it to their customers, please Pentax, stop being the ones to refuse to give us this feature in the current K10D.

Ever since firmware 1.10, every single new feature suggestion doable by firmware has been dismissed, or denied, or ignored. Listening to their customers has gotten the K10D absolutely no added functionality since 1.10 in January!. Simply making already expected features to operate properly obviously doesn't count.

Adding functionality based on requests and getting current K10D owners excited is great especially when the new replacement cameras are a while away.

No reply to this post is expected, but hopefully someone from Pentax at least reads it.

Larry
09-24-2007, 02:26 AM   #27
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I am intrigued by D300 and Canon 40D's builtin menu interface for the AF setting thingy....Are these 2 the only models that can do this?
09-24-2007, 05:03 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by raider Quote
I am intrigued by D300 and Canon 40D's builtin menu interface for the AF setting thingy....Are these 2 the only models that can do this?

No, there are others. Nikon/Canon don't sit in judgment of their owners intelligence, and simply give them this feature - no questions asked.

Pentax makes a whole big deal on that K10D owners would not be smart enough to use it leading to more warranty repairs - EVEN THOUGH A RESET SETTING WOULD BE SUPPLIED! FOOLPROOF!

Yet, as to listening to their customers, they are refusing this feature for the K10D.
09-25-2007, 01:37 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by mutley Quote
(snip) Nikon D300, and Canon 40D have menu interfaces to fine tune the AF for specific lenses, with a memory for a certain number. They've given it to their customers. No questions asked. (snip)

It constantly amazes me to hear individuals incredulously ranting against Pentax for failing to provide some feature in the K10D included in one or two Canon or Nikon cameras costing two or three times more. The Nikon D300 costs $1800, the Canon 40D $1500, and the Pentax K10D $700.


QuoteQuote:
(snip) every single new feature suggestion doable by firmware has been dismissed, or denied, or ignored. Listening to their customers has gotten the K10D absolutely no added functionality since 1.10 in January! (snip)

The same with those ravenously ranting for more. Additional features or capabilities added afterwards are certainly nice. But, once we have the camera in front of us, I don't see how the company is obliged of provide more than what we originally purchased, with endless rants to follow when they do fail to provide more.


QuoteQuote:
(snip) and Pentax vowing to not allow us to have it (snip) Pentax makes a whole big deal on that K10D owners would not be smart enough to use it (snip)

Companies rarely discuss business/product decisions or considerations with the public. Therefore, I've seen no public comments at all similar to this from Pentax. Please show where Pentax has publically vowed (promised) not to allow us this feature, or where Pentax has made a "big deal" about K10D owners being too stupid to use it.

Instead, I suspect a user adjustable feature like this would, at the very least, require substantial changes to the camera's complex built-in operating software. Considering that, and the limited (or no) benefit for most users, it is more likely the company has simply decided that such an addition is not worthwhile in a camera aimed at this market segment at this time.

stewart
09-25-2007, 11:27 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by stewart_photo Quote
Instead, I suspect a user adjustable feature like this would, at the very least, require substantial changes to the camera's complex built-in operating software. Considering that, and the limited (or no) benefit for most users, it is more likely the company has simply decided that such an addition is not worthwhile in a camera aimed at this market segment at this time.

stewart
No, focus calibration already exists in the debug mode. All that is needed is a firmware update to provide menu interface with reset. Just like the menu interface was adjusted for the additional uses for the thumb wheels. There's already been a long thread in DPreview asking whether this feature would be desirable in the current K10D, and the vast majority was overwhelmingly yes.

Pentax says they are different because they "listen to their customers". This could be an example of that with just a firmware update.

There are various posts around expressing what Pentax explained when they asked them personally for this feature. They feel we just can't handle it like Nikon/Canon owners can.
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