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07-07-2008, 08:43 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by barondla Quote
I feel your pain. Cutting off dealers that didn't do over $90,000 last year was stupid. It will cost pentax a lot. Wanna bet their US body sales are way down this year vs last? Know many Pentax dealers who are very, very mad at Pentax US. They don't like having to get products from distributors ( Neither Nikon nor Canon do this in US). D
You have got to be kidding!!!!! I've been in sales and marketing for over 30 years and have never seen this approach work for anybody. When every manufacturer with any sense is streamlining the distribution chain Pentax adds a step by inserting a distributor, insane. Some 20th century accountant has to be responsible for this lunacy. We can kiss the Pentax brand goodbye.

I've sat in more meetings than I care to remember when this approach has been outlined with the usual BS about how much money it will save the corporation. It never works, period! This truly saddens me. Letting the sales reps go can be a good move if handled right but cutting off small customers and adding distribution will add 20 percent to the cost of goods.

So now rumor has it they are coming out with an entry level unit contrary to what Ned said and they will push it through an outdated distribution system that adds cost. Yeah this sounds like a company with a plan. Hope I'm wrong but it certainly doesn't sound like it.

Ken

07-07-2008, 09:46 PM   #32
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K20 is ok for sports

Im hoping to get a 55-300mm soon.Just for the hell of it i used the old 80-320mm
for my first go at action shots with the k20d.It did ok but im sure il get better quality once i get a 55-300mm. Think you shouldve given the k20d more of a go but good luk with your new system
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Last edited by trumpyman; 07-10-2008 at 08:29 PM.
07-08-2008, 03:23 AM   #33
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I'm not selling my Pentax gear but I'm getting the Nikon D700 when it comes out. When I need to get that shot for my photoblog on the street I need something that focuses better then the Pentax. I like the way Canon and Nikon do it better. I love Pentax shooting modes and their lenses just don't have time to be waiting on them. I hope they do well in the future... I'm just not going to be investing in anything new from them.
07-08-2008, 04:15 AM   #34
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Yes, I feel for you!

QuoteOriginally posted by fwbigd Quote
It’s a very sad day for me indeed. I just completed the sale of all my Pentax equipment. I had been a Pentax user since 1986 when I bought Super A. I progressed though the Pentax line with the purchase of a PZ-1, PZ1p, MZ-S, *istD and K10D and a collection of F* and FA* lens.
I am on the same boat with you. I have been a Pentax user since 1988 when I bought a SFX. I then have bought a MZ-30, MZ-S, *ist D, *ist DS and K100D and a collection of F, F*, FA, FA*, FA Limited, FAJ, DA, DFA lenses, too!

QuoteQuote:
Why did I do this you ask? I could hardly wait for the K20D with all the hype that had been forth coming on this and other forums. The day the K20D hit my local camera store I went down to test it out. DISAPPOINTMENT is not a strong enough word.
I think I would use the word UPSET or "frustration" to describe.

QuoteQuote:
Pentax had not even addressed my two most wanted items. Faster auto focus and more frames per second. Even then, I though I would hold on for a while and see what Pentax was going to do. Then came the announcement that Pentax had fired all their US sale reps and cut their advertising budget. That did it. A company cannot survive without marketing and a vision. Hoya seem to have neither for Pentax
It sounds to be a very bad news to me.

QuoteQuote:
A very sad day indeed!
Yes. But I would rather keep my good Pentax glass, mostly F and FA (stars or not) and sell off those digital lenses which I don't like and wait and wait (maybe forever, I don't know)..

07-08-2008, 04:21 AM   #35
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Same here.

QuoteOriginally posted by sharpshoota Quote
I'm not selling my Pentax gear but I'm getting the Nikon D700 when it comes out. When I need to get that shot for my photoblog on the street I need something that focuses better then the Pentax. I like the way Canon and Nikon do it better. I love Pentax shooting modes and their lenses just don't have time to be waiting on them. I hope they do well in the future... I'm just not going to be investing in anything new from them.
I took exactly the same strategy as yours. But I got a Canon 5D instead. However the real problem is: after using the 5D and compared to the Pentax DSLRs, I used less and less the Pentax as the camera performance difference, image quality difference are so obvious.

Honestly speaking, even sometimes I really need to carry a more compact DSLR and I did want a built-in flash, I still hesitated to pick up my Pentax or not owing to the above two simple reasons.

Last edited by RiceHigh; 07-08-2008 at 04:26 AM.
07-08-2008, 04:33 AM   #36
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How did it take you this long to get in on this Rice? I know you're in hog heaven, aren't ya?
07-08-2008, 04:49 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
I took exactly the same strategy as yours. But I got a Canon 5D instead. However the real problem is: after using the 5D and compared to the Pentax DSLRs, I used less and less the Pentax as the camera performance difference, image quality difference are so obvious.
Awesome! You actually took pics lets see how the K100D or even the *istDS stacks up againsy your 5D. Show us this obvious image quality difference; please.
07-08-2008, 05:34 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Falcons Quote
Awesome! You actually took pics lets see how the K100D or even the *istDS stacks up againsy your 5D. Show us this obvious image quality difference; please.
Resolutions, color accuracies, dynamic range and so on are of huge differences. Are these already more than enough? Not even to mention the more accurate metering/exposure plus the faster and more accurate AF.

As for the pictures you request, don't worry. I shall post some head to head shootout test shots at my blog some days later. Just look out yourself. (The shootout is about: K100D + DA 16-45 Vs 5D + 24-105L Vs MZ-S + FA 24-90 (with Fujichrome))

I just still retried a K200 at lower light yesterday, it hunts repeatedly. I can surely tell that my MZ-S is way faster than it and more decisive in AF in the same or even dimmer situation. Why we still cannot see a better Pentax DSLR with better AF up till now? (And it is just a very good reason for so many of we old Pentaxians need to buy into another system these days, or even switch, like the OP.)

07-08-2008, 05:46 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by nasty nat Quote
Because of the reasons you explained so eloquently I usually buy my cameras and lenses on line. No bias, no commissions (at least none that directly affect me), and no one pushing something on you. All that being said, I would like to know if one thing the Ritz employee told me is actually correct. I am having a bit of an issue taking 250mm to 300mm pictures without getting plenty of noise, so I was looking at the Pentax 55m-300mm lens to replace my current Sigma 28-300. The store employee told me the lenses were essentially equal in all respects. Is this really true? I find that hard to believe.
P.S. which Ritz did you used to work for in DE?
I worked at the one in Dover.

That's one of those gray areas I think. To the average consumer, I'd say the lenses are the same because they mostly print 4x6's. But from the pictures I've seen and the reviews I've read on here, the Pentax 50-300 is in a different league.
07-08-2008, 06:05 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Resolutions, color accuracies, dynamic range and so on are of huge differences. Are these already more than enough? Not even to mention the more accurate metering/exposure plus the faster and more accurate AF.

As for the pictures you request, don't worry. I shall post some head to head shootout test shots at my blog some days later. Just look out yourself. (The shootout is about: K100D + DA 16-45 Vs 5D + 24-105L Vs MZ-S + FA 24-90 (with Fujichrome))
Curious as to what you shoot that needs such fast focussing and high fps speed - you don't make a living from photography afterall.

My opinion is the Pentax K20D is an excellent camera for the price. In Nikons (in OZ anyway) it goes up against the Nikon D80 with the K20D being approx $200 more expensive.
Canons it goes up against the Canon 40D - same price.

Perhaps Pentax will bring out a camera with the feature set of the Nikon D300 - a camera that is $1,100 more expensive (in OZ - however they are offering a $300 cash back at the moment).
This new Pentax with faster AF and higher fps rates will most likely priced closer to the Current Nikon D300 - or it may never be made who knows.

But the really curious thing is this - the Pentax K20D holds its own on IQ against the D300 and is often compared to it rather than the D80 and all the Canon fanboys (like ricehigh) and all the Nikon Fanboys have to hang their hat on is slightly faster LOW LIGHT focussing speed and higher fps.

Now I am not a pro I make no money out of photography and my budget does not allow me a D300 (if it did I would buy it without a moments hesitation) and the 40D IQ compared to the 20D - well lets just say you can sit in your closet with a cigarette lighter getting off on your faster low light AF and machine gunning shots to yor hearts content - I'll be outside enjoying my Pentax with its shake reduction on all my lenses.
07-08-2008, 06:50 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Falcons Quote
Curious as to what you shoot that needs such fast focussing and high fps speed - you don't make a living from photography afterall.
Examples? Kids and Pets! We don't shoot those for a living but just for our daily life!

QuoteQuote:
My opinion is the Pentax K20D is an excellent camera for the price. In Nikons (in OZ anyway) it goes up against the Nikon D80 with the K20D being approx $200 more expensive.
Canons it goes up against the Canon 40D - same price.
If price regardingless? Then?

QuoteQuote:
Perhaps Pentax will bring out a camera with the feature set of the Nikon D300 - a camera that is $1,100 more expensive (in OZ - however they are offering a $300 cash back at the moment).
This new Pentax with faster AF and higher fps rates will most likely priced closer to the Current Nikon D300 - or it may never be made who knows.
I think it is not a matter of price here, but just if Pentax really did it or not. I have to mention again my $180 MZ-30 focuses faster and more decisively than the K20 at lower light indoor. So?

QuoteQuote:
But the really curious thing is this - the Pentax K20D holds its own on IQ against the D300 and is often compared to it rather than the D80 and all the Canon fanboys (like ricehigh) and all the Nikon Fanboys have to hang their hat on is slightly faster LOW LIGHT focussing speed and higher fps.
But the IQ is nothing that can be compared to Full Frame IQ. A colleague of mine shown me side by side photos taken by the 40D against the 5D. Of course, the 5D's pics won hands off, in particular the noise level (noise are more visible at shadow areas for the APS-C)

QuoteQuote:
Now I am not a pro I make no money out of photography and my budget does not allow me a D300 (if it did I would buy it without a moments hesitation) and the 40D IQ compared to the 20D - well lets just say you can sit in your closet with a cigarette lighter getting off on your faster low light AF and machine gunning shots to yor hearts content - I'll be outside enjoying my Pentax with its shake reduction on all my lenses.
Amateurs can still ask for better or even the best things, can't they?
07-08-2008, 07:10 AM   #42
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Dont know how many times and on how many Forums ive read the same ole complaint..In all honestly if one was to do a tour of most pros out there they would find that they either use Nikon or Canon but also they have a deeper pocket $wise than most of us pentaxians hence what we own in Camera and Glass, and we do take the time to learn how to get around some of the hickups associated with this camera , mind you this is not to say that Nikon or canon are without their hickups also..
Ive only ever owned Pentax cause thats what my pocket or budget allows for what i believe to deliver quallity..
Had i the $$ ide be lying by saying i wouldnt head off and buy a Nikon D3 or D700..
I am quite happy with my Pentax and till i win Lotto i'm stickin with it..
C'mon we own these tools so we can remember or share our memories how we percive wevr witnessed them..
Cheers
07-08-2008, 07:19 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Dave, the sad fact is that the Pentax mindset seems to be "Don't Worry, Be Happy" that you can actually take pictures with their equipment. Pentax has been behind the body technology curve since Nikon introduced the F Photomic in the late 1960s, and has happily trudged along ever since.
This was fine when the state of the art was 5 FPS and they barely delivered 3 FPS, but is is no longer fine when the state of the art is 10 FPS, and they are still struggling to hit 3FPS.
Behind the curve is one thing, but too far behind becomes behind the 8-ball. They need to release a camera that can at least compete with a 5 year old Nikon in the major performance categories that people shop for, otherwise lens quality and the IQ thing won't make a whit of difference, and the aforementioned Ritz salesman will be proven correct.
Hoya isn't in the business of losing money, and the people in the Pentax division need to figure this out and start making bodies that compete, or they risk becoming yesterday's news.
Thats a good statement WW.

Its evident that Pentax is a bit behind the big two in product and advertizing as well as product pushing in the camera stores.
My response was to the OP being vague about what he needs the super AF and FPS for. As you knwo i have a lot of both Pentax and Nikon equipment and i use them for different purposes. It is nice to have as the D2H has, 9fps, but, i never use it, at best 3-4 fps, and thats at one horse show during the year, same as the bazillion focus points available. I use centre and maybe the one below it, thats it.
Its nice to have, but do we need it.

Besides as some one we know on the other list is showing us, the K20 D AF AF-C work just fine.

Dave

Dave
07-08-2008, 07:25 AM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Examples? Kids and Pets! We don't shoot those for a living but just for our daily life!
So why do you use a Canon 5D, it only has 3fps (just like a K20D.)
Are you saying the photographic memories of my children are inferior because they are taken with PENTAX?

I can not afford a Canon 5D, so my children (according to you) should not be photagraphed form my wife and I to remember their childhood?

Seriously, I find you very insulting!


QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
If price regardingless? Then?
If price isn't a Barrier "Haselblad" with lots of lenses, studio lighting etc and a Ferrari to carry it all in. Oh and my very own Pro photographer to take the pics for me


QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
I think it is not a matter of price here, but just if Pentax really did it or not. I have to mention again my $180 MZ-30 focuses faster and more decisively than the K20 at lower light indoor. So?
Use it - whats the problem. Or just be happy with your Canon. Why the vendetta against Pentax? And of course it is a matter of price, if Pentax develop a camera exactly like a Nikon D300 it will priced about the same as a D300. Pentax are a company building marketshare they aren't doing to badly either.


QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
But the IQ is nothing that can be compared to Full Frame IQ. A colleague of mine shown me side by side photos taken by the 40D against the 5D. Of course, the 5D's pics won hands off, in particular the noise level (noise are more visible at shadow areas for the APS-C)
Canon 5D better than Canon 40D - No arguments from me!


QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Amateurs can still ask for better or even the best things, can't they?
And they are available - Anyone can buy anything they want if they have the means to. They can ask for what ever they want but they usually will have to pay for it. People aren'y all stupid they can research themselves and make a decision based on what they want, need and can afford.

Yes I too hope Pentax build a truly Pro Level camera, the reality is though I will not buy it as it will be too expensive for me (just as the Nikon D300 is).
07-08-2008, 07:42 AM   #45
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Full Explanations.. (Hope you can understand this time!)

QuoteOriginally posted by Falcons Quote
So why do you use a Canon 5D, it only has 3fps (just like a K20D.)
Are you saying the photographic memories of my children are inferior because they are taken with PENTAX?

I can not afford a Canon 5D, so my children (according to you) should not be photagraphed form my wife and I to remember their childhood?

Seriously, I find you very insulting!
What "insults"?? You asked me my applications and I answered your question by just stating two examples!

Pal, please don't be over-sensitive and overreact! :-)

So, back to the topic, years ago, I read on a photo magazine about an interview to a Nikon engineer who designed and created the F5. He said there are two type of subjects on Earth which are the most challenging to the AF system (tracking ability) of a SLR. Do you know what he stated? Kids and Monkeys!

QuoteQuote:
Use it - whats the problem. Or just be happy with your Canon. Why the vendetta against Pentax? And of course it is a matter of price, if Pentax develop a camera exactly like a Nikon D300 it will priced about the same as a D300. Pentax are a company building marketshare they aren't doing to badly either.
Since I think you are a honest guy, I don't mind to tell once again that I have NO VENDETTA of any kind against Pentax. My unpleasant experiences with Pentax DSLRs and other recent Pentax products have been well documented in my semi-open letter to the CEO of Pentax Corp years ago (A Letter to the CEO of Pentax Corporation) and it is still on the net and there is NOT ANY HIDDEN AGENGA as you guessed and supposed.

So, my case is just very simple. I do have a lot of Pentax film glass which I love. I am quite satisfied with my 5D and Canon lenses in general. But WHY NOT I cannot get the best of both worlds. What's lacking is just a *proper* PENTAX DSLR BODY which fulfill my shooting needs.

Note that I have 18 K-mount lenses/tele-cons (17 AF and 1 MF) actually but I have only two Canon primes and one L zoom (so there are only 3 Canon lenses of mine!). Do I need to rebuild all my Pentax lenses and sell them all one by one?

The concerns are I still do not want or even to think about to depart with those of my favourite Pentax lenses which I don't think I can find a replacement in the Canon land neither. Second, honestly speaking, they are rather difficult to sell at reasonable prices - the whole process is too painful and rather sad as well as super time consuming afterall!

QuoteQuote:
Canon 5D better than Canon 40D - No arguments from me!
So as 5D is better than the K20D, frankly.

QuoteQuote:
And they are available - Anyone can buy anything they want if they have the means to. They can ask for what ever they want but they usually will have to pay for it. People aren'y all stupid they can research themselves and make a decision based on what they want, need and can afford.
They are not stupid - so please use those words, I am asking you. As you have said for times. Different people have different budgets and different requirements/needs as well. What I state out my needs and expectations is NOTHING TO DO with what others need and expect.

QuoteQuote:
Yes I too hope Pentax build a truly Pro Level camera, the reality is though I will not buy it as it will be too expensive for me (just as the Nikon D300 is).
The reality is I only want the best ever possible Pentax DSLR BODY to come. The selling price is not a concern to me for that a body which I really like (if any of course)!

Last edited by RiceHigh; 07-08-2008 at 07:50 AM.
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