[WPRESTO]

It isn't possible to understand Pentax's position in marketing without looking SLR history going back to the 1950's-60's. Following WWII, German cameras, especially Leica, had a high reputation and were the choice of photojournalists (although Graflex 4X5 was still used by many at that time instead of "miniature" cameras). Some photographers who had been in Japan after the war brought back Nikon equipment in particular, praising the design, quality, lenses, and reliability, and Nikon began to make inroads into the professional 35mm camera market. The introduction of the Nikon F in the late 1950's was the deal maker. The quality was excellent, it was extremely reliable, rugged and durable, with a quick-change bayonet lens mount, and Nikon quickly added a long list of high quality optics, as good as or better than anything offered by other companies. Canon also made efforts to penetrate the prophoto market, but was a little slower off the mark. Their original SLR, the Canonflex, was a bit odd with its baseplate-mounted wind lever, whereas Nikon used the control pattern probably first established by the Leica M3, but also used by Pentax in SLR form before the "F" was introduced. In any case, the Nikon F by about 1960 had established itself as THE 35mm camera for serious, professional photographers, whereas Pentax was appealing to a wider swath of customers and never really made inroads into the pro-market. Nikon eventually offered lower-priced SLRs for "advanced amateurs" and snapshooters, but Pentax did not offer a "pro" grade SLR until, perhaps the LX*. So, Nikon established a reputation, and a following, and a benchmark and has worked hard to maintain an offering of premium quality bodies and lenses, but also affordable SLR bodies to attract non-pro photographers. Pentax attempted to penetrate the breadth and depth of the Nikon system about the time the LX was introduced (look at the variety of lenses offered at that time), but the effort did not succeed. Pros were too hooked on Nikon, amateurs wanted into the pro system so they purchased the less expensive Nikon SLRs instead of Pentax. Pentax was always a little too slow to adopt some technologies: bayonet mount and devastatingly, both AF and digital. Pentax never established a pro-grade reputation, and especially with the failure of the LX to make major inroads into Nikon's dominance of the pro market, the brand gradually fell behind in sales.

*To raise the hackles of true Pentaxians again: I loved my LX, but a Nikon FA that I owned at the same time was more rugged and could do more. It was solid, the LX was dainty, even fragile in comparison. The FA had flash sync @ 1/250 while the LX had an archaic 1/60. The LX was a lovely camera, but too little too late and not even vaguely a competitor for high-end Nikon bodies. Pentax probably did better with the 67 as a competitor to Hasselblad in advertising/fashion photography, although the synchro-compur shutters of the latter were always better for studio-strobe use.

[jeverettfine]

I agree with WPRESTO and I would blame it primarily on marketing and the tech geeks. There is a salesman at my local (large) camera store who will go on and on about the fine (superior in his mind) tech points of Nikon, Canon, Sony, Fuji etc. He NEVER will talk about Pentax and their in store stock of Pentax is smaller than any of the others. I believe it is primarily because the sales associates get more points (and money), especially from the big 2. He is a Canon user with a large collection. Except for some rather esoteric needs, Pentax has everything most professionals might need, especially with the new K-1, but will probably always be behind in design, performance etc. Pentax fills all my needs in a digital camera. I still use my MX with its vintage lenses as well as an old Rolleiflex MX-EVS.

[virusn3t]

Hard to tell, a lot of people dont know Pentax, or know they do digital cameras, while ago i meet a Canon shooter, who ask about the camera i was using (Pentax K3), he took and handled a bit, he says "it look very nice, i have never see a digital Pentax, only the film ones"... How Pentax can generate a lot of entusiam when is practically unknow to the masses? Im happy with my equipment and do not see myself changing brands, maybe and affair with Panasonic for video in the future but nothing else.

[slip]

Let's face it. The other dslr makers have excellent products. Pentax needs to expand its echo system in order to get people to change over. Pentax has great products at a reasonable price but so do the others. It needs to branch out into a couple of more specialized cameras like sports to attract in more pros.
You buy into the brand, not just a couple of great dslrs.
Why would someone change from a brand that has everything that you would ever need to to Pentax?
Not bashing Pentax but this is a question Pentax has to ask themself
IMHO

Randy

[pathdoc]

Pentax needs to expand its echo system

Blip-pinnnnnnng!

"Bearing red three-zero; three D810's and a 5D Mark III. Ready tubes one through four and load with nuclear torpedoes."

everything that you would ever need

Except (if some are to be believed) ergonomics, ruggedness and nonpareil legacy glass compatibility. Oh, and price. Full-frame flagship price.

[jeverettfine]

First of all, I never much liked Nikon (just didn't), using Leica M, Pentax, Rolleiflex and large format film cameras. My first autofocus SLR was a Canon EOS, which I liked well enough. If I had continued with Canon and acquired more equipment, I am sure I would never have looked at the Pentax K-20, K-3 (I never liked the Pentax autofocus line much...in fact to this day auto-focus is not a primary interest). When I looked for a good quality DSLR, the fact that I already owned several Pentax lenses was a big sales issue. Leica digital was out of the question due to price. I started with a used K-20 and bought a K-3 when it came out. Since then, I have filled in my equipment with three DA limited lenses and a DA 18-135, still using my legacy glass as well. Not sure I will ever really need a FF.

I do remember a friend while visiting the Leica factory back in the 80's asking which competing company made the best lenses. They said that the Canon pro line was the best, though their color consistency between lenses was not as good as Leica.

[christiandre]

just to refocus the debate , I was thinking about technical arguments, opinions in relation to the images, tests, experiments from nikon/canonists... talking with the owners of other brands, you perhaps have heard the reasons why they didn't like pentax : because colorimetry didn't enjoy them, or AF seems lazy, or pentax DR is not amazing ? .... Personally, for example, I do not like some colors and tones on Nikon DSLR, and Canon DR is not very good IMO.... and at the same time, Nikon and Canon have some amazing lenses I can't find at pentax...
...just some honest informations heard from other DSLR owners, without unnecessary war

[zmohie]

What are blamed for Pentax DSLR cameras
the answer :is/they were very late when decided to go digital era!

they catch the last carg of the digital train!
pentax was no1 camera in egypt at 70s it was popular but now no one apart from me useing pentax camera!!Lol jokeing!!

[virusn3t]

just to refocus the debate , I was thinking about technical arguments, opinions in relation to the images, tests, experiments from nikon/canonists... talking with the owners of other brands, you perhaps have heard the reasons why they didn't like pentax : because colorimetry didn't enjoy them, or AF seems lazy, or pentax DR is not amazing ? .... Personally, for example, I do not like some colors and tones on Nikon DSLR, and Canon DR is not very good IMO.... and at the same time, Nikon and Canon have some amazing lenses I can't find at pentax...
...just some honest informations heard from other DSLR owners, without unnecessary war

I believ only a very few will try every brand until find the camera that match every tecnical need that you describe, most of us will choose a camera and grow in that brand, Canikon the most usual because the people can find it easily on stores, you bought Canikon and if you ever need grow the nramd have space for that, Pentax even today dont have a FF in the store to give that option, even less about lenses. That is changing but is entering late....

Only those very especialized photographers that need the best AF, or color, or FPS, portability, etc... are those who search beetween brands, see specs, and xhange ship.

[slip]

I believ only a very few will try every brand until find the camera that match every tecnical need that you describe, most of us will choose a camera and grow in that brand, Canikon the most usual because the people can find it easily on stores, you bought Canikon and if you ever need grow the nramd have space for that, Pentax even today dont have a FF in the store to give that option, even less about lenses. That is changing but is entering late....

Only those very especialized photographers that need the best AF, or color, or FPS, portability, etc... are those who search beetween brands, see specs, and xhange ship.

People don't realize how important auto focus is until you are taking shots of the bride coming down the path and your autofocus can't keep up... or when your grandchildren are walking towards you and you miss almost all the shots.it. Should be the most important thing to all the brands.

Randy

[TaoMaas]

Canikon the most usual because the people can find it easily on stores...

I think this is a huge reason Pentax has fallen out of favor in my neck of the woods. Even if a person wanted to consider a Pentax, there's no place to go look at one! It's not as bad now, but there was a time when even people who made their living in photography or were serious amateurs had no idea Pentax made DSLRs. But all of the ones I ran into, once they had a chance to handle my camera and play with it a bit, were highly impressed.

[virusn3t]

People don't realize how important auto focus is until you are taking shots of the bride coming down the path and your autofocus can't keep up... or when your grandchildren are walking towards you and you miss almost all the shots..

Randy

Indeed, but me as a example, mostly product photography, i dont recall the last time i use AF for that, my K30 and the DFA100WR, cost me like 500-550usd both, the camera have focus peaking and that is all i need, after that i try studio, portrait, family and vacation photos... A D500, D5, DX1, etc are over the top for me... That dont deter me from preorder a K1 anyway.

[FantasticMrFox]

You say weather sealing is equivalent to not having screw drive?

I am saying some Pentax lenses on the list have the advantage of weather sealing while Canon lenses have the advantage of STM, which is silent and quicker than screw-drive.

Your comparison of the 55-300 WR to the 55-250? Come on, really, the 55-300 is best in class for consumer lenses going to 300mm, almost DA* quality. The comparison for the Canon 55-250 is the Pentax 50-200, at $200.

Who says it's best in class? On Photozone the optical results are roughly comparable to the Pentax, on ePhotozine the Canon beats the Pentax. I think the Pentax is a great lens, that's why I bought it, but the Canon is very highly regarded, especially for its price, so the comparison is absolutely valid. The Pentax 50-200 cannot measure up to the Canon.

But that being said, you posted some crazy numbers. [...] I'm not sure if your prices are a product of European prices, or you're cherry picking prices ...

I didn't cherry pick, I tried to find lenses that are comparable across the two brands and compared prices from the same source, Amazon Germany.

But who knows, maybe what you say is true for European buyers. It's certainly not even close to being true in North America.

Possibly. When it comes to buying photographic equipment Europe is pretty much being screwed by manufacturers price wise. Maybe Ricoh just takes it a bit further than the other brands.

[pathdoc]

Pentax was always a little too slow to adopt some technologies: bayonet mount and devastatingly, both AF and digital.

One might argue that Pentax were in fact a little FAST to adopt AF (the ME-F), but in an experimental system that (probably for very good reasons) did not catch on. Such are the hazards of being a pioneer!! And then they got gun-shy and let it ride, and that is not to their credit. TBH I'm pleased I skipped the Pentax AF era; the cameras that I saw on sale for many hundreds of late 1980s-early1990s dollars new could be had for a relative pittance when I was in Vancouver last year, and they all looked a very uninspiring bunch. When I eventually did buy a bells-and-whistles AF SLR it was a Minolta Dynax 3xi... but we all know what happened to Minolta (Sony om nom nom....).

Pentax have come back big-time under Ricoh, and the fact that they made it through the lean years as a brand when Minolta did not indicates to me that they were still doing something right in that time. (Sure, we can argue forever about whether Pentax really still exists as an entity, but for the time being at least it seems that every DSLR that comes out of Ricoh Imaging is going to wear the Pentax label, and as long as that remains so and there are engineering/R&D/manufacturing resources dedicated to that, I think there's a case to be made for 'yes'.)

[zzeitg]

Not really. Look at Pentax UWA offering, it's pretty scarce. I never thought there would be lenses I want that Pentax or third party manufacturers cannot offer, until I started to yearn for an affordable UWA.

Let's make a list:
- DA 14mm f2.8
- DA 15mm f4
- DA 10-17mm f3.5 - f4.5 fish-eye
- DA 12-24mm f4
- D FA 15-30 f2.8 (OK, this one is on the way)
- Sigma 15mm f2.8 fish-eye
- Sigma 8-16mm f4.5 - f5.6
- Sigma 10-20mm f3.5
- Sigma 12-24mm f4.5 - f5.6
- Sigma 15-30 mm f3.5 - f4.5

All AF lenses.

Then there are several Samyang (PKA) lenses:
- Samyang 10mm f2.8
- Samyang 12mm f2.8
- Samyang 14mm f2.8
- Samyang 16mm f2

Not talking about all the old MF lenses (but who really needs AF when it comes to UWA?)....

The bold marked lenses I own and I wouldn't say they are bad lenses.

However, I'd also be glad if Sigma pays more attention to Pentax again. And I hope that Samyang keeps going further (lack of Pentax K-mount support in case of new lenses like 21mm f1.4 and 50mm f1.2 makes me a little nervous).

But right now I can't say that I couldn't cover any lens range (either from current or vintage Pentax lenses).