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04-14-2016, 02:29 PM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by pacerr Quote
The whole point of using HFD is that you DON'T KNOW exactly what pop-up opportunities will arise and/or you may not have time to refine focus so you're doin' the best you can to capture a fleeting moment in time within a pre-focused window.
guess what, i use a pre-focused window all the time, for example i've shot thousands of pics at the drag strip that way... if cars are over a foot or two in the lane from where i pre-focused, i move the focal plane that same distance with my feet.

it's the exact same approach that i posted for shooting those horse pics, it's much better than using af.

the difference for you is that i pre-focus ACCURATELY beforehand, if possible, instead of using your sloppy hyperfocal guesswork to "focus" the lens.

QuoteOriginally posted by pacerr Quote
You wanna see truly effective use of HFD? Look through some of the combat images from any 20th century conflict shot with the likes of a 4x5 Speed Graphic or a 6x6 TLR or an RF 35mm - or even an old Spotmatic. Auto-focusing back then meant habitual use of HFD!
yes, let's all use the same sloppy markings on the barrel to focus the camera that people were using 100 years ago why even bother with digital cameras in the first place? we should all just be on film... NOT

QuoteOriginally posted by pacerr Quote
Do you want a chance at that once in a life-time, money shot? Make it a habit to set an appropriate HFD for the expected scenario. Oh, yeah, an' then there's pre-setting Sunny Sixteen SWAGs for exposure too. Another "sloppy" habit that makes success more likely.
why would i want sunny16 sloppy guesswork when i can see the actual exposure of the shot in the evf? you may even be able to do that with the k-1 lcd, if pentax finally makes a camera that works like the latest canikon wysiwyg cameras do.

here are some pre-focused shots that i took with an adaptall-2 60-300 lens, the cars happened to wander over the spots on the ground that i'd zoomed into and pre-focused on... gosh, aren't these shots way oof? i should have been listening to forum luddites who claimed that barrel markings on the lens are the only way to use a camera




04-14-2016, 04:25 PM   #62
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"The whole point of using HFD is (when) you DON'T KNOW . . ." not that you don't know HOW to do anything else.

Did I not just say one could, and should, use any and all focusing aids available to establish a logical, pre-focused window when it's the best tool you've got??

QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
if pentax finally makes a camera that works like the latest canikon wysiwyg cameras do.
Ah, now I understand . . . silly me!

Last edited by pacerr; 04-14-2016 at 04:32 PM.
04-14-2016, 06:42 PM   #63
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I love Sony's ambassador to this forum, Osv, especially when as a manual focusser he chides you guys as luddites.

More power to him! In fact, after seeing the fights he was picking with the Medium Format guys in their threads (something, again, he knows nothing about), I nominate him as a moderator. :-D
04-14-2016, 08:08 PM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
I love Sony's ambassador to this forum, Osv, especially when as a manual focusser he chides you guys as luddites.

More power to him! In fact, after seeing the fights he was picking with the Medium Format guys in their threads (something, again, he knows nothing about), I nominate him as a moderator. :-D
I suggest if a user's posts are Ignored, quotes of the user's posts should also be invisible.

04-14-2016, 10:24 PM - 1 Like   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
I love Sony's ambassador to this forum, Osv, especially when as a manual focusser he chides you guys as luddites.

More power to him! In fact, after seeing the fights he was picking with the Medium Format guys in their threads (something, again, he knows nothing about), I nominate him as a moderator. :-D
Yes, latest in a long lineage of Sony ambassadors to these shores...


Steve

(...like and respect the Sony product, BTW...)
04-14-2016, 10:25 PM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I suggest if a user's posts are Ignored, quotes of the user's posts should also be invisible.
Alas! Only vampires don't cast shadows...


Steve
04-15-2016, 07:47 AM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by pacerr Quote
"The whole point of using HFD is (when) you DON'T KNOW . . ." not that you don't know HOW to do anything else.
sorry, i guess that i missed what you were saying there, because so far i've always been able to set at least some level of focus with my camera... i should have tried to think about when there could be an inability to focus with a dslr, or even for film guys who are on this dslr forum.

---------- Post added 04-15-16 at 08:04 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I suggest if a user's posts are Ignored, quotes of the user's posts should also be invisible.
the better forum rule should be that anyone who doesn't already have clackers on ignore should be ignored, unfortunately that won't work for mods

Last edited by osv; 04-15-2016 at 08:07 AM.
04-15-2016, 10:30 AM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
sorry, i guess that i missed what you were saying there, because so far i've always been able to set at least some level of focus with my camera... i should have tried to think about when there could be an inability to focus with a dslr, or even for film guys who are on this dslr forum.
I came back after two days {and two pages} away from here, and discover that you are still wrapped up in your own little Oshun Street Video world. From your own comments, I gather that you neither understand nor respect street photographers; you should try it some time. I don't do much of it, but some of my photography fits into the street shooter pattern, where people are the essence of the story, and i want to get my picture before the presence of my camera changes the story. That is part of why "Weegee" Fellig said "f/8 and be there"; he knew that if he set his camera at f/8 and set focus at a certain point, everything within his range of interest would be in focus, so if he preset the shutter speed based on current lighting conditions, all he had to do was to point his camera and shoot - no time for anything else, certainly no time for "chimping". As a guy said in a different thread here, getting the story is more important than perfection {which is basically the other part what "Weegee" was implying }

Or, if you want another example, in 1975 the "American Freedom Train", a steam special honoring the then-upcoming 200th anniversary of the U.S. Declaration of Independence, came through South Bend. My brother and I met the train on the east side of town. Once it had cleared that junction, we ran back to my car and drove to the station downtown. Once it had cleared the station, we ran back to my car and drove to the Portage Viaduct, a local highway bridge we knew the train would go under. Once it cleared that area, we ran back to my car and drove the the high school, where the train would park and be on display for the rest of the weekend. In each location after the first, we arrived, panting, at the location just before the train. In the last two locations, the train was heading north, so our primary concern was how to deal with lighting that was less than ideal. In none of those cases, did we have time to fuss with focusing, and certainly we never would have had time to "chimp" and adjust our settings {for example, we wanted as much of the train as was visible - the entire train was perhaps 2000' long - to be in focus} if such a capability had been available.


Last edited by reh321; 04-15-2016 at 02:00 PM. Reason: reword for clarity
04-15-2016, 02:09 PM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv:
. . . i move the focal plane that same distance with my feet . . . instead of using your sloppy guesswork to "focus" the lens.
One full step or two? Shoe size in millimeters or fractions of an inch? Sorry, I tried not to do it and couldn't resist.

But, I do have a serious question -- at what specific, scientifically determined, point does a dedicated DOF/HFD chart become unacceptably 'sloppy' for pre-focusing within the context of its pre-defined limits of expected use -- obviously presuming that the anticipated plane-of-focus is accurately pre-set using the best means available to the knowledgeable and skillful photo-gopher?

I'm really bummed out over the possibility that any shots I've captured using a pre-set HFD were simply the results of unpredictable witchcraft.
04-15-2016, 02:18 PM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
I came back after two days {and two pages} away from here, and discover that you are still wrapped up in your own little Oshun Street Video world. From your own comments, I gather that you neither understand nor respect street photographers;
i see that you've returned from being away for two days, and you still haven't understood anything that's been posted to this thread, lol... i'll try again.

QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
That is part of why "Weegee" Fellig said "f/8 and be there"; he knew that if he set his camera at f/8 and set focus at a certain point
"focus at a certain point" ...focus exactly how, ACCURATELY, is the point of what's been said... you still don't get that, focusing distance has a radical effect on dof calculations.

as for dof itself, which is largely irrelevant to the main point above, weegee did most of his notable work on 4x5, at f/16, not f/8, focused at 10ft... so, using the same bogus dof calculators that everyone uses:
4x5, 127mm lens, f/16, 10' focusing distance = 6ft. dof
ff, 35mm lens, f/8, 10' focusing distance = 18ft. dof

so weegee didn't even use his own camera per his own dof recommendations, he should have been at f/32 on 4x5, in order to get the same f/8 dof that he told everyone else to use on what i guess was 35mm film, certainly not 4x5? calculate the lens/aperture equivalence here: http://www.tawbaware.com/maxlyons/calc.htm

that weegee thing has clearly been misunderstood and blown out of proportion.

QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
In each location after the first, we arrived, panting, at the location just before the train. In the last two locations, the train was heading north, so our primary concern was how to deal with lighting that was less than ideal. In none of those cases, did we have time to fuss with focusing, and certainly we never would have had time to "chimp" and adjust our settings {for example, we wanted the entire train - perhaps 2000' long - to be in focus} if such a capability had been available.
"available"? it sounds like you are contradicting everything that you've said so far? the dof calculators claim that infinity is possible with a 35mm lens on ff, at your "f/8 and be there" aperture, 20' focusing distance, so why be skeptical.
04-15-2016, 02:41 PM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
"focus at a certain point" ...focus exactly how, ACCURATELY, is the point of what's been said... you still don't get that, focusing distance has a radical effect on dof calculations.
One mo' time . . . when you don't know exactly where precise focus will be needed but you'd like to be as well prepared as possible -- by any means . . .

QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
Weegee . . . should have been at f/32 on 4x5, in order to get the same f/8 dof that he told everyone else to use on what i guess was 35mm film, certainly not 4x5? -- that weegee thing has clearly been misunderstood and blown out of proportion.
You don't know what he used?! Have you ever shot anything at ASA 10 - 25 -- on the move -- in the field -- for a living -- under ambient lighting conditions?

Digital photography seems to have spawned a breed of camera users that also don't know why we say "dial a phone" and couldn't get out of the garage using a 'crash-box' manual transmission much less harness the mule. That's OK! Just don't try to teach granny to suck eggs til you master it yourself.

You've offered images that appear to show you know how to use your gear. Well done.

Now come try using MINE in the same venue to achieve a proportional degree of success. I'd even let ya use the wire-frame sports finder on the 4x5! Burst mode and AF if you can find it, too.
04-15-2016, 02:52 PM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by pacerr Quote
unpredictable witchcraft.
Much better than all this Sony voodoo
04-15-2016, 02:57 PM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by pacerr Quote
One full step or two? Shoe size in millimeters or fractions of an inch? Sorry, I tried not to do it and couldn't resist.
actually, at the track i sometimes use tire width to judge against.

imho, for the horses, if you want a shot of the riders head two feet in front of the bar, that's how far you step over, otherwise you'd be backfocused on the bar itself, it's not rocket science.

QuoteOriginally posted by pacerr Quote
But, I do have a serious question -- at what specific, scientifically determined, point does a dedicated DOF/HFD chart become unacceptably 'sloppy' for pre-focusing within the context of its pre-defined limits of expected use -- obviously presuming that the anticipated plane-of-focus is accurately pre-set using the best means available to the knowledgeable and skillful photo-gopher?
i don't ever use dof calculators, i go by what i see in the photo, using lenses that i've tested beforehand, for things like field curvature.

blow this pic up to 100%, pick a side and compare the lenses to each other, notice how the last lens is softer than the other two lenses, what good is a dof calculator there? it can't tell you what the lens characteristics are: 28mm Camera Lens Comparison, Sony a7R: Sigma MiniWide II, Albinar ADG, Vivitar 28mm f:2.0
04-15-2016, 02:58 PM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
"focus at a certain point" ...focus exactly how, ACCURATELY, is the point of what's been said... you still don't get that, focusing distance has a radical effect on dof calculations.
I understand that; I have understood that ever since I got my first camera with those "antiquated" markings, and so does anyone else as soon as s/he looks at an "antiquated" lens and sees that the scale appears to be logarithmic in nature. I didn't say exactly what distance "Weegee" would set his lens at, because you will complain regardless of how I express this; you complained here about lack of detail, and you also would have complained if I had provided any detail ... partly because you would have rightly said that the exact setting may depend on circumstances. Any time someone does street photography, the settings used are a compromise between the possibility of missing something in the foreground that might be an important part of the picture and missing something in the background that might be an important part of the picture. In my case I would set my Super-Tacumar 35mm f/2 lens at around 15', because I don't need actual infinity and I want to get things closer than 20'

QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
that Weegee thing has clearly been misunderstood and blown out of proportion.
Wrong again. Talk to people who actually do street photography, and you'll find out that "Weegee" is still a good source of guidance.

QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
"available"? it sounds like you are contradicting everything that you've said so far? the dof calculators claim that infinity is possible with a 35mm lens on ff, at your "f/8 and be there" aperture, 20' focusing distance, so why be skeptical.
Wrong again. I was using a rangefinder camera with a 45mm lens and I wanted things closer than 20' to be in focus ... and frankly I don't remember exactly what setting I used 40 years ago; I do know that I used an f/8 setting and a distance setting I felt at the time to be appropriate.
04-15-2016, 03:36 PM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by pacerr Quote
One mo' time . . . when you don't know exactly where precise focus will be needed but you'd like to be as well prepared as possible -- by any means . . .
for that, most people would say that auto focus is the best way to be prepared :-0 but i know that dog won't hunt with you

so we look at weegee... he shot the 4x5 with only one focus point, 10ft., using the same lens mark over and over, and he focused with his feet; he always had to be 10ft. away from the object of interest... really not much different than how i just described shooting the horse jumping, now is it? pick an accurate focus point, and move the camera with the object, to keep the same distance.

that's got nothing to do with dof at all, but notice how everyone is confused, and keeps calling it dof?

QuoteOriginally posted by pacerr Quote
You don't know what he used?! Have you ever shot anything at ASA 10 - 25 -- on the move -- in the field -- for a living -- under ambient lighting conditions?
he mostly shot at night, with flash, not ambient, i posted the format that he used most of the time, and what his settings were... it sure wasn't "f/8 and be there", but he was using one aperture for everything, i understand the point... but again, it's irrelevant, this isn't a dof issue.

QuoteOriginally posted by pacerr Quote
Digital photography seems to have spawned a breed of camera users that also don't know why we say "dial a phone" and couldn't get out of the garage using a 'crash-box' manual transmission much less harness the mule. That's OK! Just don't try to teach granny to suck eggs til you master it yourself.
i finally caved in to af for the first time with the tamron zoom, af is still a crap shoot, but at 600mm for some sports, it gives me more keepers than i can get with mf... i would use that lens in mf mode to shoot those horse jumping shots, tho, no question about it.
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