Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
04-15-2016, 03:47 PM   #76
Pentaxian




Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: South Bend, IN, USA
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 2,982
QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
guess what, i use a pre-focused window all the time, for example i've shot thousands of pics at the drag strip that way... if cars are over a foot or two in the lane from where i pre-focused, i move the focal plane that same distance with my feet.
And what would you do if you have at most half-second notice that a car is off its usual line {very bad news for the driver; potentially very lucrative for a quick-thinking photographer} and stepping forward is not an option {turns at IMS come to mind}

04-15-2016, 03:57 PM   #77
osv
Pentaxian




Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: So Cal
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,080
QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
Wrong again. Talk to people who actually do street photography, and you'll find out that "Weegee" is still a good source of guidance.
i think that what weegee inspires in people is his composition skills, and the unique subject matter, not his gear.

QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
Wrong again. I was using a rangefinder camera with a 45mm lens and I wanted things closer than 20' to be in focus ... and frankly I don't remember exactly what setting I used 40 years ago; I do know that I used an f/8 setting and a distance setting I felt at the time to be appropriate.
f/8 might have been part of the problem... a 45mm lens at f16, focused at 15ft. is supposed to be infinity from 7.24ft. out?? i wouldn't want that shot on 36mp, but maybe it could have worked on low-rez film.

---------- Post added 04-15-16 at 04:21 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
And what would you do if you have at most half-second notice that a car is off its usual line {very bad news for the driver; potentially very lucrative for a quick-thinking photographer} and stepping forward is not an option {turns at IMS come to mind}
af would be real handy there.

at the drag strip, if a motorcycle pulls up on the inside, it's back to square one for re-focusing, got just a few seconds, it's easy to blow focusing even with an evf, because bikes never really stop moving.
04-15-2016, 04:42 PM   #78
Pentaxian




Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: South Bend, IN, USA
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 2,982
QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
so we look at weegee... he shot the 4x5 with only one focus point, 10ft., using the same lens mark over and over, and he focused with his feet; he always had to be 10ft. away from the object of interest... really not much different than how i just described shooting the horse jumping, now is it? pick an accurate focus point, and move the camera with the object, to keep the same distance.

that's got nothing to do with dof at all, but notice how everyone is confused, and keeps calling it dof?

he mostly shot at night, with flash, not ambient, i posted the format that he used most of the time, and what his settings were... it sure wasn't "f/8 and be there", but he was using one aperture for everything, i understand the point... but again, it's irrelevant, this isn't a dof issue.
Wrong again. You could babble about "Weegee" for the next week, but the details of his life and career are not the point.
Those who talk about street photography agree that the point of f/8 in "f/8 and be there" is to get a comfortably wide DOF.
It has everything to do with DOF

f/8 and Be There - What We Can Learn From WeeGee's Philosophy | Shutter Photo Magazine

f-8 and be there! | serendipity…

'F/8 and Be There' -- as True Now as It Was in Weegee's Day

---------- Post added 04-15-16 at 07:47 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
i think that what weegee inspires in people is his composition skills, and the unique subject matter, not his gear.
You are partly right here. Most everyone agrees that the total message of "f/8 and be there" is to have your gear set up so the mechanics of taking a picture will require zero attention from you at the time {and that would include "chimping" these days}, so you can focus on subject material and composition.

---------- Post added 04-15-16 at 07:50 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
at the drag strip, if a motorcycle pulls up on the inside, it's back to square one for re-focusing, got just a few seconds, it's easy to blow focusing even with an evf, because bikes never really stop moving.
And that's where a fat DOF {originally the subject of this thread} comes in handy, because you can get the "money shot" even if the target of the shot is not in the middle of the "in focus" area.

Last edited by reh321; 04-15-2016 at 04:51 PM.
04-15-2016, 08:34 PM   #79
osv
Pentaxian




Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: So Cal
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,080
QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
Wrong again. You could babble about "Weegee" for the next week, but the details of his life and career are not the point.
Those who talk about street photography agree that the point of f/8 in "f/8 and be there" is to get a comfortably wide DOF.
It has everything to do with DOF

f/8 and Be There - What We Can Learn From WeeGee's Philosophy | Shutter Photo Magazine
wrong, WEEGEE USED F/16 WITH THE CAMERA IN THAT PHOTO

so don't give us that f/8 drivel, it's not true "Most of his notable photographs were taken with very basic press photographer equipment and methods of the era, a 4x5 Speed Graphic camera preset at f/16 at 1/200 of a second, with flashbulbs and a set focus distance of ten feet.[8]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weegee

04-15-2016, 09:09 PM   #80
Pentaxian




Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: South Bend, IN, USA
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 2,982
QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
wrong, WEEGEE USED F/16 WITH THE CAMERA IN THAT PHOTO
so don't give us that f/8 drivel, it's not true "Most of his notable photographs were taken with very basic press photographer equipment and methods of the era, a 4x5 Speed Graphic camera preset at f/16 at 1/200 of a second, with flashbulbs and a set focus distance of ten feet.[8]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weegee
Please re-read the message that you allegedly responded to, this time for meaning / understanding

QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
Wrong again. You could babble about "Weegee" for the next week, but the details of his life and career are not the point.
Weegee's life and how he personally practiced photography are not a point of "f/8 and be there".

QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
Those who talk about street photography agree that the point of f/8 in "f/8 and be there" is to get a comfortably wide DOF.
It has everything to do with DOF
Street Photography experts agree that a comfortably wide DOF is a point of "f/8 and be there".
04-15-2016, 09:15 PM   #81
Site Supporter
stevebrot's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Vancouver (USA)
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 27,415
QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
so don't give us that f/8 drivel, it's not true
It is unlikely that weegee originated the quote because f/8 would accomplish little on a 4x5 camera at the distances he favored. On the other hand, the Wikipedia article you referenced illustrates nicely how to get the shot without having to fiddle. The camera was configured with a set focus, aperture appropriate to the flash output while allowing for adequate DOF, a shutter speed high enough to prevent ambient light ghosting, and an external wire frame viewfinder. Those setting would give him almost 4 1/2 feet DOF with an 8x10 enlargement and significantly more if contact printed to 4x5. Available flash options and films were essentially market tuned to allow for that style of shooting...basic press technique. In all likelihood his film was also loaded in a Grafmatic magazine to all for multiple shots without changing film holders.

As for the quote, while attributed to weegee, a number of other people have been credited over the years. What is well known is that using f/8 or even f/5.6 on 35mm format will provide very adequate DOF on those cameras when using pre-focus technique.

Say "f/8 and be there" to anyone with working competence with the 35mm format and the intent of the saying is readily obvious and understood. After all, intelligent leveraging of DOF is chapter two in most introductory photography books.

This is where the smiley goes...

...sorry, I seem to have misplaced it.


Steve

(...I know, I know...do not feed the trolls...)

P.S. This is the man and that is not a Speed Graphic...


http://fstopspot.com/main/free-guides-for-photographers/photography-history/...-and-be-there/

Last edited by stevebrot; 04-15-2016 at 09:24 PM.
04-15-2016, 09:21 PM - 1 Like   #82
osv
Pentaxian




Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: So Cal
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,080
QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
And that's where a fat DOF {originally the subject of this thread} comes in handy, because you can get the "money shot" even if the target of the shot is not in the middle of the "in focus" area.
no, sharpness in a photo means the plane of focus, and that might be measured in inches if you are lucky, see the point on the blue line, everything outside of that point is just different degrees of blur... distance to the focus point doesn't change the plane of focus much, if any.

i already proved all that with pics earlier, but you clearly still don't get it... i suspect that you just don't know what real sharpness looks like, due to the camera gear you are using... this is what i shoot with at the track, there is a very narrow plane of focus even with a 28mm lens at f/8:

"The chart above is generated whenever the compute button is clicked. The x axis shows distance from the sensor, and the y axis shows "blur" measured in mm. The blue line shows how blurred a point source of light becomes on the sensor as its distance ("subject distance") from the camera varies, while the camera's "focus distance" remains unchanged. The closer the line to the x axis, the better focused the subject. When focus distance and subject distance are identical, the image is perfectly focused and the object is said to be in the "plane of focus", and there is no blurring. This corresponds to the inflection point in the blue line. This should be the sharpest point in the image. As subject distance and focus distance diverge (i.e. the subject is moved in front of, or behind the plane of focus), the amount of blur increases, and the image becomes progressively softer/blurrier. The subject distances at which the blur is less than the amount specified as the Circle of Confusion (indicated by the red line) are within the "depth of field", depicted with a light blue shading on the chart." http://www.tawbaware.com/maxlyons/calc.htm

---------- Post added 04-15-16 at 09:28 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
It is unlikely that weegee originated the quote
duh! sorry, couldn't help it

QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Say "f/8 and be there" to anyone with working competence with the 35mm format and the intent of the saying is readily obvious and understood. After all, intelligent leveraging of DOF is chapter two in most introductory photography books.
i covered that already in an earlier post, including the math, it's not relevant to setting the correct focus point.
Attached Images
 
04-15-2016, 09:39 PM   #83
Site Supporter
stevebrot's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Vancouver (USA)
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 27,415
QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
i covered that already in an earlier post, including the math, it's not relevant to setting the correct focus point.
But of course...how forgetful of me!


Steve

(...groan...)

04-15-2016, 10:27 PM   #84
Site Supporter




Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Gabriola Island
Posts: 591
QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
no, sharpness in a photo means the plane of focus, and that might be measured in inches if you are lucky, see the point on the blue line, everything outside of that point is just different degrees of blur... distance to the focus point doesn't change the plane of focus much, if any.
A plane has two dimensions. It would certainly be quite an accomplishment to measure sharpness inches deep in a plane of focus.
04-16-2016, 09:37 AM - 2 Likes   #85
Loyal Site Supporter
pacerr's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Henry, TN
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 2,909
QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
. . . total message of "f/8 and be there" is to have your gear set up so the mechanics of taking a picture will require zero attention from you . . .
. . . unless or until you have time to refine that solution with better tools and technique. That goes without saying, doesn't it?

Let's not loose sight of @Panonski's original request for advice on determining and optimizing the window of satisfactory sharpness. No matter what your tools or technique, the answer lies in understanding the principles of DOF/HDF and applying that information in a practical manner.

Sure, AE, AF and auto-ISO options are extremely useful tools -- in many cases they're the best tools available today -- but they're not the ONLY tools. The basic principles of optics and photography haven't changed and thoughtful anticipation is always the first step toward success in any task.

Pre-setting a logical combination of exposure and focus using the best available tools is a practical philosophy of preparedness; not a final solution for either function. Just as was choosing to load a certain type of film to suit the expected conditions in the days before on-the-fly ISO and WB selection. (Thanks, digital gear. Swappin' out a film cassette in the field was a real PITA ! )

As for the potential accuracy of lens range scales, I don't recall EVER using the scale itself to set focus. Much easier and more intuitive to simply set manual focus on an anticipated point of interest through the VF and optimize DOF constrained by the allowable aperture determined by lighting conditions and desired shutter speed.

Even locking AF on a pre-planned point (maybe even an HFD point?) may have advantages in preventing focus hunting in some conditions -- especially with macro lenses.

Then there's also a certain degree of finesse in using CIF if you have pre-planned the target and desired DOF window/bokeh results. It certainly has helped if I have ready reference to a DOF chart calibrated by my own prior personal experience with the gear in hand. That's chimping the old fashioned way -- before the shot!
04-16-2016, 02:48 PM   #86
osv
Pentaxian




Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: So Cal
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,080
QuoteOriginally posted by John Poirier Quote
A plane has two dimensions. It would certainly be quite an accomplishment to measure sharpness inches deep in a plane of focus.
oh? well, using that logic, you can't measure dof either, since it also exists on a plane dof calculators have been doing the impossible, lol
04-16-2016, 03:59 PM - 1 Like   #87
Site Supporter




Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Gabriola Island
Posts: 591
QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
Pentaxian




Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: So Cal
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 1,860 | Likes: 124

QuoteOriginally posted by John Poirier Quote
A plane has two dimensions. It would certainly be quite an accomplishment to measure sharpness inches deep in a plane of focus.

oh? well, using that logic, you can't measure dof either, since it also exists on a plane dof calculators have been doing the impossible, lol
By definition, a plane has two dimensions, which means it has no depth. Depth of field manifests as a gradient of sharpness reducing with distance on either side of the plane of focus. That gradient has depth. Depth of field calculators are about that gradient, not about a plane.
04-16-2016, 04:08 PM   #88
Loyal Site Supporter
clackers's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Melbourne
Photos: Albums
Posts: 9,010
QuoteOriginally posted by John Poirier Quote
By definition, a plane has two dimensions, which means it has no depth. Depth of field manifests as a gradient of sharpness reducing with distance on either side of the plane of focus. That gradient has depth. Depth of field calculators are about that gradient, not about a plane.
Doesn't get it, does he?

Pretends he understands focus.
04-16-2016, 04:41 PM   #89
Site Supporter




Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: South West UK
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 683
There was me thinking this was a friendly forum..!
Can I sum this up?

- There is a peak of sharpness at the focal distance
- The sharpness drops off on either side of this distance
- The rate at which the sharpness drops off depends on a number of factors, but mainly on aperture...
- The point at which sharpness becomes unacceptable is very subjective and depends on subject, photographic style and purpose, and the viewer themselves
- DoF calculators assume an 'acceptable' level of sharpness that you may or may not agree with depending on the above

That is, surely, the answer to the original question. How you go about using these facts is a personal preference which, most would agree, is fairly unimportant to creative photography... However, there are certain branches of photography where sharpness is the be all and end all.

Each to their own. How about we move on?
04-16-2016, 04:48 PM   #90
osv
Pentaxian




Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: So Cal
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,080
QuoteOriginally posted by John Poirier Quote
By definition, a plane has two dimensions, which means it has no depth.
light rays are radiation, do you think that has any depth? how many light rays can i hold in a tablespoon?

now give us an example of a physical plane that has no depth.

QuoteOriginally posted by John Poirier Quote
Depth of field manifests as a gradient of sharpness reducing with distance on either side of the plane of focus. That gradient has depth. Depth of field calculators are about that gradient, not about a plane.
focus manifests itself as a gradient of sharpness, reducing with distance on either side of the theoretically perfect plane of focus.

and dof exists along the same plane that focus does.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
aperture, barrel, button, camera, distance, dof, dslr, field, film, focus, front, lens, lenses, magnification, markings, measure, move, nail, oof, photography, pic, picture, sharpness, sharpness in dof, shutter, subject, train
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Where is the line in between RAW developmemt and PP? Drizzt Digital Processing, Software, and Printing 16 05-20-2015 10:00 AM
The Age of the Standalone Still Camera is Coming to and End interested_observer General Photography 82 03-01-2015 04:06 PM
One interesting feature of the DC motors (and SDM in general) bdery Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 3 01-08-2015 12:07 PM
DOF calc, Hyperfocal calc in camera. schmik Pentax DSLR Discussion 25 05-20-2009 10:27 PM
End of the Line (in More Ways than One) Mike Cash Post Your Photos! 13 01-03-2008 01:40 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:10 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top