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05-11-2016, 04:34 PM - 1 Like   #106
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
You need to add "camera manufacturing engineer" to your profile.
Not really. It's a basic business principle, common to any manufacturing company. Undergraduate business students understand capital allocation decisions and the embedded value of manufacturing expertise.

Of course, I freely stated I/we don't know whether Ricoh's experience and knowledge gained form Q is scaleable - I just don't think it is. And that's fine. You can straw man me with the engineer aspersion. Maybe you're right. I just don't think so.

05-11-2016, 04:47 PM   #107
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Not really. It's a basic business principle, common to any manufacturing company. Undergraduate business students understand capital allocation decisions and the embedded value of manufacturing expertise.

Of course, I freely stated I/we don't know whether Ricoh's experience and knowledge gained form Q is scaleable - I just don't think it is. And that's fine. You can straw man me with the engineer aspersion. Maybe you're right. I just don't think so.
I have an MBA with a minor in finance {which is where capital allocation fits} and experience working with hardware engineers in designing new products and new production facilities. It appears that we are both guessing, but stating something with such certainty as you've been doing is pushing credulity.

I've spoken my piece, I won't say any more.
05-11-2016, 05:19 PM - 1 Like   #108
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I'm not a manufacturing engineer either. I have observed a few things, though. . .

I have a Fujifilm REAL 3D W3 camera, which is an amazing little pocket stereo camera. Fuji at one time planned this whole system where you could snap stereo photos, view them in stereo on the lenticular LCD panel, view them on your 3D TV, or send the MPO files to Fuji and have them made into lenticular 3D prints. I believe they may have also had a 3D digital picture frame at one time. Cool idea. Didn't catch on, sadly. (It's still a beloved camera among the small but fanatical cult of stereo shooters!)

The total number of W1 and W3 cameras (there was no W2, for some reason) sold was only a couple thousand. I was stunned when I found that out. The cost of engineering those and setting up manufacture must have been huge! They must have lost a fortune on those things!

Then I looked closer at the specifications and the other cameras Fuji make. I realized the whole optical chain in the W3 -- sensor, periscope mirror (it has a folded optical path for compactness!) and zoom lens stack -- are all identical to those used in Fuji's "rugged" type cameras. They just put two of those units side-by-side, used the same battery, probably the same OVF and flash components too, and wrapped a new case around it. The only component specific to the W3 was the lenticular LCD display, and they might have found that off-the-shelf from some supplier. It was really assembled from the parts bin. And even though it was undoubtedly a failed experiment for Fuji, it was not a terribly costly one.

I like to see these kinds of experiments done. You never can tell when one will succeed and point the way forward.
05-11-2016, 10:58 PM   #109
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tony Belding Quote
OK, I'm assuming that part wasn't aimed at me, because I've never made any such forecast.
None of it was aimed at you, or any forum member in particular: I was giving my own opinion and observations on mirrorless. My preference is for DSLRs, though I do use some mirrorless cameras (I love the Q, for example). I just don't like them as much as DSLRs, maybe because looking at the EVF is to me like looking at a TV screen. I just don't feel as involved in the process as I do when looking through an optical finder. But as you bring the matters up, as a spectacle wearer, I do find EVFs quite hard to see in bright sunlight. OTOH I don't find it a particular problem checking my settings or exposure on the LCD in any light, but I wouldn't want to use it for composing my photographs, either. The latest EVFs are very good in low light, I will give them that but, as I said, I can always resort to the rear LCD on a DSLR if I absolutely need to. If you prefer the particular advantages of an EVF, that's fine by me, but some people (and I'm not bashing anyone on this forum...) take an almost religious stance on their choice of camera type (or camera brand, etc) and become evangelistic about things. To them I say, "calm down" it's only a camera. Buy what you like: fortunately, we still have choices. I won't make any predictions, but many mirrorless (point and shoot) cameras have fallen to the might of the smartphone, which is gaining ground every day. "Proper" cameras whether CSCs or DSLRs may well all be niche items before long. What I do know is that I currently have a darn good set of cameras and lenses that will serve me well for many years to come.

05-12-2016, 04:05 AM   #110
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cynog Ap Brychan Quote
But as you bring the matters up, as a spectacle wearer, I do find EVFs quite hard to see in bright sunlight.
I also wear glasses. The problems they've caused me, at times, has been in field-of-view and eye relief. I just can't get my eye down into the eyecup with those glasses in the way, and it's sometimes hard to get a clear view of the whole frame plus the data readout below it. That data display is especially difficult out in the sun, as it's pretty dim and sometimes easily washed out. (However, I've got to say the viewfinder in my new K-S2 seems among the best I've seen in a DSLR!) By comparison, an EVF overlays its data on the image -- perhaps visual clutter to some, but it does make it easier to read for me. And I believe the X-T1 even has an option to make the display smaller for eyeglasses wearers, resulting in more effective eye relief.

QuoteQuote:
"Proper" cameras whether CSCs or DSLRs may well all be niche items before long. What I do know is that I currently have a darn good set of cameras and lenses that will serve me well for many years to come.
I think it helps to look back and take a longer perspective on the whole phone-camera thing. When I was growing up, most ordinary people used Polaroids or 110 format pocket cameras. They were dreadful. When I bought my first 35mm SLR, my family thought I was off my gourd. "You spent how much on a camera? And what's with all those numbers and dials? You'd have to be a rocket scientist to work that!" When the first batch of prints came back from our day trip, they were astonished to see that the image quality was somehow better than from a plastic Kodak pocket camera.

I feel like we went through an anomaly there for a while, when the DSLR was the latest high-tech wonder, and it became briefly fashionable to buy one, to be seen with one, and (for most people) to leave it on Auto and never take the kit lens off, and to use it like a point-and-shoot. That's over now, and things are going back to normal.

Today's phone camera is the Polaroid and 110 camera rolled together, and the performance is far, far better than those ever were. It's perfectly suited to the needs and understanding of the world's masses of non-photonerds.
05-12-2016, 04:15 AM   #111
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The problem with any one of us trying to predict where camera technology will go 5, 10, 20 or 50 years from now is that we will all, most likely, be wrong. I have a big collection of 40's, 50's and 60's Popular Mechanics magazines and, over the years they published many articles with predictions of the technology changes we were going to see 25 or 50 years ahead. And - not a single one of their predictions have come true. Not one. So, for all we know the humble DSLR may still be our weapon of choice, for some years to come. Or not. My mobile phone takes pretty decent photos. And, that holds true for most people's phones these days. But - strangely - I see many more people now with DSLR's than I ever saw with SLR's.
05-12-2016, 01:14 PM   #112
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I agree that the future is impossible to predict accurately. Nevertheless, any product manufactuer or retailer must strive to make some predictions, or else there will be nothing on their shelves to sell to the customer.

Likewise, us mere mortal customers, must also strive to predict, despite all the ads and propaganda, what we would like in the future as to products. We have X dollars to spend on Y products. We guide our own 2 feet and our own wallet.

Mirrorless cameras with interchangeable lenses now own 30% of the DSLR market, which was formerly split primarily between Canon and Nikon. If i was a Nikon or Canon manager, and saw 30% of my market share fade away, I'd be sweating bullets trying to figure out how to compete with that. They have far more resources to divert than Pentax, yet are playing the game far more conservative than Pentax. I'm just amazed that Nikon and Canon are remaining so passive in the face of a very credible challenge.

Notice that i'm not getting lost in the details of one design vice another. I'm just looking at CIPA data and asking the obvious question of why these large dominant companies are not being more pro-active. They could for example make one pro-level K01 type mirrorless and let it compete on their shelves with their DSLRs. A kodak like business case study in the making.
05-12-2016, 01:41 PM   #113
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Notice that i'm not getting lost in the details of one design vice another. I'm just looking at CIPA data and asking the obvious question of why these large dominant companies are not being more pro-active. They could for example make one pro-level K01 type mirrorless and let it compete on their shelves with their DSLRs. A kodak like business case study in the making.
Canon does have the EOS-M family, which has specs comparable to the K-01. The M1 was more of a dud on the market than the K-01 was, and the M2 was sold only in Asia. I felt that the lack of an EVF crippled these models, just as it did the K01. The M3 has an optional {was $250, now $200} EVF, but I haven't heard much about the M3 since it was introduced. They have a full-function adapter {$50 added to package price, $100 when purchased separately} that allows one to use standard EF-mount lenses with it.

05-13-2016, 12:27 AM   #114
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
Canon does have the EOS-M family, which has specs comparable to the K-01. The M1 was more of a dud on the market than the K-01 was, and the M2 was sold only in Asia. I felt that the lack of an EVF crippled these models, just as it did the K01. The M3 has an optional {was $250, now $200} EVF, but I haven't heard much about the M3 since it was introduced. They have a full-function adapter {$50 added to package price, $100 when purchased separately} that allows one to use standard EF-mount lenses with it.
I think you're right - Canon isn't far off:
a. get a better sensor
b. provide EVF - a serious lack in bright sunlight outdoors
c. ibis would be good

I don't know if this mount is usable for FF. But if it were, they would be well-positioned to ramp up to mirrorless models for enthusiasts and pros.

I don't think Nikon is nearly as well prepared. They have the Nikon 1, but its not even an aps sensor.

I would think that Canon, at least would provide a large sensor mirrorless option in 2016 for large sensor cameras. I see any number of posts from Canon DSLR owners that are converting from DSLR to Sony mirrorless. Don't have any numbers so can't tell how big a trend it is. But its like that cliche: Where there is smoke, there is fire.
05-13-2016, 03:17 AM   #115
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I think you are right if the goal is to appeal to mass market consumers.

However, in the digital age Pentax has never appealed to mass market consumers.

Personally I find Fujifilm overrated. The lenses are no smaller that full frame lenses.

Telephoto lenses are large for both apsc and full frame formats.

Fujifilm AF speed is notoriously slow.

X-trans also doesn't seem that great for landscapes.

The plus points are they are attractive looking cameras and for using old manual focus lenses an evf is probably better than an ovf.
05-13-2016, 03:49 AM   #116
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QuoteOriginally posted by howieb101 Quote
for using old manual focus lenses an evf is probably better than an ovf.
Am I the only one who has no trouble at all manually focusing older lenses on a K-3 or a K-5? I'm not fast, but I'm accurate!
05-13-2016, 04:06 AM   #117
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I am just saying for the general person. Depending on the person and a bit of effort, manual focus either with ovf or liveview isn't that bad on the K3 and will be even easier on K1 with bigger ovf.

Howie Be
05-13-2016, 05:30 AM   #118
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cynog Ap Brychan Quote
Am I the only one who has no trouble at all manually focusing older lenses on a K-3 or a K-5? I'm not fast, but I'm accurate!
I've only had my K-S2 for a few days, but I do find the viewfinder impressive, and manual focusing is working better for me than I had expected. More practice will help, I'm sure. I guess it also helps that, even though I'm very nearsighted, my corrected vision is actually quite sharp, and I can read those lines way down toward the bottom of the eye chart.

I do sort of miss the split-prism viewfinder from my old SLR. It did make focusing faster and more confident. Focus peaking doesn't seem quite so helpful to me. In the normal live-view, peaking is way too sensitive and too much of the scene lights up. In magnified view it simply highlights what was already visible to me, although I reckon it could be helpful to someone with less acute eyesight.
05-17-2016, 12:21 AM   #119
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
This is totally off topic, but your comment deserves a reply.

The U.S. has lots of capacity for generating electricity, and from various sources, very little of which involves petroleum, so petroleum usage and electricity usage have relatively little overlap. When we talk about an "energy crisis" we mean that supply of petroleum is down. Until the past few years, that could easily happen if something went wrong in the Middle East, and so the thinking was always how could we move some of our activity from petroleum to electricity; yes, we would have to cut back over-all usage, but the need was to balance the whole thing out, and moving from gasoline powered cars to cars that ran at least partially on electricity could have been a part of that effort, and the Ford planning was that kind of thinking. I used that only as an analogy of how managers of industry need to be flexible in how they plan.
This is the US energy consumption: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_the_United_States#Consumption_by_sector

83% is from fossil ernergy.

Sure electricity, that is only 41% of energy consumption in US is most dependant on coal and gaz that are still fossil energy.

Now transportation is 28% and depend mostly (94%) on petroleum.

The question that can be raised in case of a hard crisis, is how many year to replace the existing car park into an electric one, where to find all the batteries (that would make the demand explode) but also where to get electricity from. You need to double production. If we speak of taking renewable energy, that multiplying the capacity by something like 20. And of course it will be more costly to make than before, as there will be no longer cheap energy available.
05-17-2016, 07:36 AM   #120
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
This is the US energy consumption: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_the_United_States#Consumption_by_sector

83% is from fossil ernergy.

Sure electricity, that is only 41% of energy consumption in US is most dependant on coal and gaz that are still fossil energy.

Now transportation is 28% and depend mostly (94%) on petroleum.

The question that can be raised in case of a hard crisis, is how many year to replace the existing car park into an electric one, where to find all the batteries (that would make the demand explode) but also where to get electricity from. You need to double production. If we speak of taking renewable energy, that multiplying the capacity by something like 20. And of course it will be more costly to make than before, as there will be no longer cheap energy available.
You can believe what you will believe. In the U.S., when petroleum products are less available, people's attention goes to hybrid and totally electric automobiles. I told you about Ford's flexible plan to meet that reality in the future because I believe that kind of approach is wise, and Pentax could use similar thinking. I did not mean to cause yet another detour, and I am now totally abandoning this totally off-topic detour.
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