Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
02-13-2007, 06:05 AM   #31
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
slip's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 2 hours north of toronto ontario canada
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 3,534
QuoteOriginally posted by matix Quote

Sorry, if I wanted a full manual camera I would have selected other options. I selected the K10D because of it's flexibility and great options between Auto and Manual, and the on board flash is simply not acceptable.

.
I agree 100%
how would someone keep changing the settings in sports photography?
when I am shooting cheerleading, I am constantly changing the focal length. if the flash doesn't work completely in auto, then how would anyone have time to change the settings?

If a flash doesn't work 100% in full camera auto then it is definately something wrong IMHO

cheers

randy

02-13-2007, 08:45 AM   #32
Veteran Member




Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,299
QuoteOriginally posted by matix Quote
The onboard flash is not consistant in it's exposure, and I am losing 20-50% of candid shots due to under or over exposure of the subject, usually under.
Matix, are you using firmware v1.1? People have reported better flash exposure with 540FGZ; not sure if it applies to onboard flash. Worth a try.
02-13-2007, 01:46 PM   #33
Senior Member
matix's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 239
QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
Matix, are you using firmware v1.1? People have reported better flash exposure with 540FGZ; not sure if it applies to onboard flash. Worth a try.
Nosnoop sure am, updated right away to 1.1. The 540FGZ seems to be a lot better of course, have tested it, and it does expose as expected in the few opportunities I have had, and testing. Not that I want to have an external flash mounted on board all the time, kinda defeats the advantage of having an onboard flash for candid shots and quick shots, of which I do many.

It is interesting though, with sample shots taken in a dark room from 1.5 meters of a brightly coloured object, with the ISO Range set to max of 800, both flashes insist on 800 ISO, but use different shutter speeds, 90/sec for the onboard flash, and 180/sec for the 540FGZ. Both shots had excessive noise as a result.

I think some serious reprogramming needs to be done to rectify this issue.

1. Why does the camera logic insist on the highest ISO, is it not talking to or aware the flash has been chosen, or the 540FGZ has been installed?

2. Why is the onboard flash ignoring the 80% subject predominate in the frame and setting to the brighter background of maybe 5% of the remaining 20% on the outer limits of the shot? causing a severely underexposed shot.

3. Why is the Flash Focus Assist on both flashes virtually useless, requiring the carrying of a flashlight from a bicycle to illuminate any shot more than 1-2m from the flash.

C'mon Pentax - This is a serious issue.
02-13-2007, 02:38 PM   #34
Veteran Member




Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,299
QuoteOriginally posted by matix Quote
1. Why does the camera logic insist on the highest ISO, is it not talking to or aware the flash has been chosen, or the 540FGZ has been installed?
I have explained this quite a few times in the posts above. Basically, High ISO allows better flash range, reduced battery use, and allowing more ambient light in the background to give more balanced natural look. And because you are free to set your upper ISO limit, this behavior is quite logical to me.

QuoteQuote:
2. Why is the onboard flash ignoring the 80% subject predominate in the frame and setting to the brighter background of maybe 5% of the remaining 20% on the outer limits of the shot? causing a severely underexposed shot.
I can see that the camera is trying to avoid highlight clipping at all cost. It does lead to underexposed shots whenever you get a strong reflective light; which the built-in flash is more prone to have. And this bias is consistent with general metering, actually. Afterall the same metering sensors and system is being used.

I personally do not use built-in flash in night flash photography at all (only used in daylight fill flash if I don't have the external flash with me). I always use bounced flash with diffuser; and the result has been excellent.

QuoteQuote:
3. Why is the Flash Focus Assist on both flashes virtually useless, requiring the carrying of a flashlight from a bicycle to illuminate any shot more than 1-2m from the flash.
Hmm...... strange, I found the focus assist of my 540FGZ works very well. Haven't tried in a very large room, but around 4 to 5m in an almost pitch back room, it did focus without any problems.

02-13-2007, 03:17 PM   #35
Senior Member
matix's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 239
QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
I have explained this quite a few times in the posts above. Basically, High ISO allows better flash range, reduced battery use, and allowing more ambient light in the background to give more balanced natural look. And because you are free to set your upper ISO limit, this behavior is quite logical to me.

I can see that the camera is trying to avoid highlight clipping at all cost. It does lead to underexposed shots whenever you get a strong reflective light; which the built-in flash is more prone to have. And this bias is consistent with general metering, actually. Afterall the same metering sensors and system is being used.

I personally do not use built-in flash in night flash photography at all (only used in daylight fill flash if I don't have the external flash with me). I always use bounced flash with diffuser; and the result has been excellent.
nosnoop your response was well written and received, I will work on learning the techniques needed, otherwise I am experiencing great success with the K10D.

The 540fgz external flash is brilliant (no pun intended ) and if this shot is any indication, sometimes a good focus assist using a xenon bicycle light is required, it works. Shot is of 4 kookaburras sleeping in a large gum tree beside our house. They are there every night.

Shot was taken with a Sigma AF 70-300 lens I picked up at a pawn shop for $90. Distance? 11meters (34') hand held at 200mm, F5.6 and ISO 800. I think the K10D did a good job, as did the 560 FGZ Pentax flash.
Attached Images
 
02-16-2007, 02:56 PM   #36
Forum Member




Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: SF Bay Area (CA)
Posts: 86
Original Poster
Why wouldn't the K10 take advantage of Aperture first?

nosnoop,

I have been trying to validate your comments. Question:

If the K10D is truly trying to balance ambiance vs flash as you stated, why wouldn't the camera take advantage of a wider aperture before bumping up ISO?

Here is the scenario: Inside portrait shot from 2m away. dim light. K10D in Program mode (MTF program line). FA 50mm 1.4 lens. Auto ISO (range 100-800). Flash used. No flash compensation or EV compensation.
Result: Picture taken (very noisy) at aperture F5.0, shutter 1/60, ISO 800.


Question: In your experience and opinion would it be wiser for the camera to take advantage of a wider aperture (to let in more light in) before bumping up ISO?
No confrontation intended. Your response is appreciated.
02-16-2007, 04:00 PM   #37
Veteran Member




Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 643
nosnoop.. so if the way the k10 does it is the best way why dosnt the k100 do it the same way.. ???

i think the k100 does it the sensible way.. the k10 does it the silly way.. but thats just my opinion..

thow in all truth i think "my opinion" makes more sense then yours.. he he

no confrontation intended here either.. except to say i think u are wrong..

trog
02-16-2007, 04:31 PM   #38
Veteran Member




Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,299
QuoteOriginally posted by loganross Quote
If the K10D is truly trying to balance ambiance vs flash as you stated, why wouldn't the camera take advantage of a wider aperture before bumping up ISO?
Using a wide aperture is most appropriate in portrait shots. But it may not be so desirable in many other situations such as group photos (some in focus, some outside DOF and out of focus), and family snapshots / tourists snapshots (where you want to see the background and location settings instead of a blur). So the camera would usually choose a smaller aperture to maintain a reasonable depth of field.

It's for same reason why the aperture was chosen if you ignore the whole discussion of ISO/Flash balance questions. Why doesn't the camera use the widest aperture? Wide aperture gives you better flash range, better battery life, and shorter charge recycle time. The aperture was chosen for the depth of field concern and also for better lens (sharper) performance.

02-16-2007, 04:45 PM   #39
Veteran Member




Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,299
QuoteOriginally posted by trog100 Quote
nosnoop.. so if the way the k10 does it is the best way why dosnt the k100 do it the same way.. ???
i think the k100 does it the sensible way.. the k10 does it the silly way.. but thats just my opinion..
K100D and K10D target different users. Default behavior were set differently (e.g. Bright mode for K100D, Natural mode for K10D). But I think the key difference is the ease and flexibility of changing Auto ISO in K10D (right from ISO menu, and in 1/2 or 1/3 steps if you want), and the extreme ease in overriding it (just turn the dial!), as compared with that in K100D (many key presses to access the custom menu, only upper range can be changed and in 1 stop interval, and more key presses to override and reset).

So in K10D, they expect users to be able to override and change AUTO ISO range; while in K100D, they expect many users to leave things as they are and not changing the defaults. That's why a more conservative and play-safe settings is used in K100D.

Another possibility could be the increasing popularity of High ISO flash shot in Auto mode as pioneered by Fujifilm in their SuperCCD cameras.
02-16-2007, 05:29 PM   #40
Junior Member
ecce38's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Arkansas
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 43
QuoteOriginally posted by egordon99 Quote
I should have grabbed by 50mm f/1.4, then I could have backed down to ISO800 :-) (I love using that lens wide open!)
Me too. I just took some nice shots with flash@ISO200, f8.5
02-16-2007, 05:30 PM   #41
Veteran Member




Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 643
yes but i am the same "me" whether i use the k100 or the k10.. i quite like auto iso even thow it has the EV bug..

i like my camera not to use a higher iso than it needs to.. i set it to work between 200 and 800.. if i owned a k10 it would be between 200 and 400.. this applies to flash or none flash shots..

i dont want my camera to attempt to mix flash and ambient light at the expense of increased digital noise and some strange kind of white balance that would need manually setting every time i used the flash..

dont get me wrong.. if pentax have chosen to follow this path (its possible) with the k10.. its just gives me one more reason for not buying one.. and one more reason to be glad i chose the k100..

trog

ps.. the sole reason Fujifilm go for the high iso aproach is to reply to the likes of panasonic with their shake reduction.. the fuji sensor at a given iso number produces less noise than a normal sensor.. what makes sense for fuji dosnt apply to anybody else..

Last edited by trog100; 02-16-2007 at 05:35 PM.
02-16-2007, 05:33 PM   #42
Pentaxian
Lowell Goudge's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Toronto
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 15,400
QuoteOriginally posted by trog100 Quote
yes but i am the same "me" whether i use the k100 or the k10.. i quite like auto iso even thow it has the EV bug..

i like my camera not to use a higher iso than it needs to.. i set it to work between 200 and 800.. if i owned a k10 it would be between 200 and 400.. this applies to flash or none flash shots..

i dont want my camera to attempt to mix flash and ambient light at the expense of increased digital noise and some strange kind of white balance that would need manually setting every time i used the flash..

dont get me wrong.. if pentax have chosen to follow this path (its possible) with the k10.. its just gives me one more reason for not buying one.. and one more reason to be glad i chose the k100..

trog
After reading all these comments, has anyone considered setting up the User Exposure mode to how you want your flash controlled. As you are very concious of putting the flash on the camera, if the user mode becomes your preferred settings for flash, you solve the problem. Note User mode can have different ISO, sharpness contrast, saturation etc.
02-16-2007, 05:47 PM   #43
Veteran Member




Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 643
i dont know lowell.. but i am happy with the way my k100 handles its flash.. i am only argueing on the principle that the way the k10 handles its flash is more bug than intentional..

i actually like my camera to have auto features.. it means i can concetrate on taking pictures and not fiddling with settings..

but.. the auto feature does have to work properly.. one that dosnt is a waste of space.. i consider the way the auto iso works with the k10.. a waste of space.. which is why i think its a bug..

as i said eariler.. they seem to have corrected the k100s EV bug but created another one.. which to be honest dosnt surprize me in the slightest..

trog
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
auto, camera, dslr, flash, iso, k10d, photo, photography
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Auto ISO with ext flash defaults to high? wutsurstyle Pentax K-5 14 07-29-2011 11:41 AM
Flash or High ISO jellyfish26 Troubleshooting and Beginner Help 9 05-17-2011 10:35 PM
K10D vs K7 High Iso Workingdog Pentax DSLR Discussion 11 12-08-2009 08:30 PM
K10D high iso ain't that bad?? Vaizard Pentax DSLR Discussion 4 03-02-2008 07:12 PM
Night photography with K10D - High ISO short exposure VS Low ISO long exposure pw-pix Pentax DSLR Discussion 10 02-03-2008 01:37 AM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:48 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top