Curious about what makes a camera suitable for a "more advanced user".

**TER-OR** · 05-19-2016, 12:08 PM

Occasionally I meet someone who put their DSLR on a shelf because it was too complicated. They thought a "better" camera would be easier to use. Generally I tell them the higher up the product chart you go, the more the photographer has to do. The more they have direct control over, that is. I like that the K30/50 series has been gifted two wheels, that makes them a big step above entry-level.

**Kerrowdown** · 05-19-2016, 01:27 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by johnhilvert

"for the less advanced user"

I think the PC speak for that is "entry level"

**Tony Belding** · 05-19-2016, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by TER-OR

Occasionally I meet someone who put their DSLR on a shelf because it was too complicated.

Although this is straying a bit from the topic, I have to recollect. . . When I got my Sears KS-2 (rebadged Ricoh XR7) around 1982 or so, I was so fearful of its many dials and numbers that I stuck it in the back of the closet for about six months, or maybe upwards of a year, before I finally snagged a book (The Complete Kodak Book of Photography, which is wonderful and I still have) to teach me how to use it.

And that was with, basically: aperture, shutter speed and ASA speed. Now think of all the settings a DSLR has!

Quote:

I like that the K30/50 series has been gifted two wheels, that makes them a big step above entry-level.

I question the value of the second control dial. I don't use full M mode all that often, and I don't like trying to remember which dial does what.

**RKKS08** · 05-19-2016, 03:46 PM

Originally posted by Tony Belding

I question the value of the second control dial. I don't use full M mode all that often, and I don't like trying to remember which dial does what.

I use M mode just for M and K lenses, flash, and experiments.

And, with the K200D, my work flow is automized and the index finger is near the EV button anyway (instead at the non-existing front wheel), so it does not seem to make a difference. I doubt I would change values with the 2 wheels simultaniously.

Getting used to 2 wheels now would probably slow me down for quite a while when my finger searches for the EV button.

reh321 · 05-19-2016, 04:01 PM

Originally posted by Tony Belding

I question the value of the second control dial. I don't use full M mode all that often, and I don't like trying to remember which dial does what.

I don't always remember, but even when I change the wrong thing, have to move it back and then move the other, it is easier than my Q-7, which requires that I lower the camera from my eye, figure out which value will be controlled by the wheel right now and whether i have to press a button before I can change the thing I want to change.

**TER-OR** · 05-20-2016, 05:14 AM

Most often I use TAv mode - front wheel for shutter speed, rear for aperture. Balance for your requirements.

BrianR · 05-20-2016, 05:27 AM

Originally posted by RKKS08

Getting used to 2 wheels now would probably slow me down for quite a while when my finger searches for the EV button.

It took me a few months of retraining the fingers to make it automatic, but it was totally worth it for me. It's not really the simultaneous control of shutter and aperture that I like, just that there are buttons to control aperture, shutter and iso without diving into a menu (k100d could only control iso via menus).

lesmore49 · 05-20-2016, 08:02 AM

I like having two wheels. It's part of the value of having an advanced user camera (hope that's PC enough

) to have more controls and settings on the outside of the camera body. Many people may not use the m..manual setting, but one of the reasons I got my K-5 and K10D...is to fully use every part of the camera.

I maybe different, using a hand held light meter occasionally, but let me tell you it's a wonderful part of photography for me to do my own metering.

My first good camera, the Pentax S1a, did not have an in camera light meter. That was back in the 1960's so I had to learn to use a separate meter and I also carried around a gray card...still do, in fact. In the '70's and '80's I got some medium format cameras. A Zeiss Ikon Super Ikonta B and a Mamiya 220 Pro F, twin lens reflex and also a Leica 35mm Rangefinder. All these cameras did not have an in camera meter...so metering became and is second nature.

But with hand held metering, you need to be able to precisely control your shutter speed and F stop. For that you need full functioning setting ability, which with two wheels, set on M...is quite easy to do.

To me it's great to meter, then set, then check exposure with the monitor image...then try a number of different settings of F stop/shutter speed..if you want....all as dictated by the hand held meter. My meters...give a plethora of settings...which I love to see and use if I choose...to experiment .

Excuse my long windedness....but a K10D, K-5...advanced camera gives me that ability. I also set them on aperture priority an awful lot too. But I do like to meter with a good hand held meter.

My favourite hand held meter, is my new Sekonic L-398 Studio Deluxe lll. I've got three light meters, including the meter I bought back in 1968. It's a Sekonic L-248 and it still works.

**Tony Belding** · 05-20-2016, 08:10 AM

Originally posted by Tony Belding

I question the value of the second control dial. I don't use full M mode all that often, and I don't like trying to remember which dial does what.

OK, now I take it back. I've just been discovering how cool the Hyper Program Mode can be. With aperture on the front dial, shutter speed on the back, and the green button right next to the shutter release button, I have everything I need.

TheOneAndOnlyJH · 05-20-2016, 02:56 PM

Originally posted by Tony Belding

OK, now I take it back. I've just been discovering how cool the Hyper Program Mode can be. With aperture on the front dial, shutter speed on the back, and the green button right next to the shutter release button, I have everything I need.

I've got it set exactly the opposite on mine.

Two reasons...
1) Looking at the top display on my K-3, the shutter speed is closer to the front dial and the aperture value is closer to the rear dial. When I first started getting used to it I could look at it and quickly remind myself which dial did what.
2) Most DSLR's with two control dials that I've tried set aperture for rear and shutter speed for front by default, so if I learn that way I'll be better off if I pick up someone else's camera or end up upgrading to a new camera. (Just like I learned to write right handed so I could use any old pair of scissors!

)

In Tv and Av modes I set the second dial to adjust ISO. This way my front and rear dials work the same as in Hyper Program, but the ISO adjusts to compensate. This is useful for keeping a fixed aperture in Av but bumping the ISO and shutter speed to prevent motion blur, or keeping a fixed shutter speed in Tv but bumping the ISO and closing the aperture to increase depth of focus (almost as if in TAv mode, but still letting the camera set the exposure intelligently). If you use exposure compensation (+/-) often, you could set that for the second dial instead of ISO, but I find that my K-3 usually does pretty well, and if it doesn't I change metering to center weighted and it usually works just fine.

Generally I use TAv in low light (pretty much a full time HyperProgram), Av in bright light, and manual when I use flash. (p-TTL flash tends to screw up with auto-ISO. It usually sets the flash too low and boost ISO too high, so you get a grainy pic with poor white balance between the flash and ambient lighting.)

**Tony Belding** · 05-20-2016, 03:31 PM

Originally posted by TheOneAndOnlyJH

I've got it set exactly the opposite on mine.

Two reasons...
1) Looking at the top display on my K-3, the shutter speed is closer to the front dial and the aperture value is closer to the rear dial. When I first started getting used to it I could look at it and quickly remind myself which dial did what.
2) Most DSLR's with two control dials that I've tried set aperture for rear and shutter speed for front by default, so if I learn that way I'll be better off if I pick up someone else's camera or end up upgrading to a new camera. (Just like I learned to write right handed so I could use any old pair of scissors!

)

The K-S2 doesn't have a top panel display. And my 35mm film SLRs, as well as the Fuji X-T1, have aperture control on the lens, shutter control on the body. So, it just seems easier to remember if I use the dials closer to the original location of those controls.

Pentax Frank · 05-21-2016, 07:43 PM

One of the advantages of the advanced moniker is you can put on the external battery grip. This allows easier vertical shooting. double the battery life and a more solid grip when using heavy lenses. In my humble opinion there are only two types of photographers amateur or professional . If you are a pro you will know what you need and purchase accordingly . Amateurs will buy the camera according to their economic situation and will be quite capable to learn all what their selected camera has to offer.

SKYGZR · 05-21-2016, 09:04 PM

Everyone is an "Amateur" unless they are "making a living" capturing/publishing/get'n paid/ with their work.. (and not having to rely on ANY OTHER type/form of "income" to make that living)...and we're not talk'n just tak'n pic's of "weddings" and get'n "paid" to do it. It's more than "making a living" than just that..must be more rounded, and accomplished in other avenues to proclaim "Professional Status"..

05-20-2016, 08:02 AM	#23
lesmore49 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Western Canada Posts: 12,349	I like having two wheels. It's part of the value of having an advanced user camera (hope that's PC enough ) to have more controls and settings on the outside of the camera body. Many people may not use the m..manual setting, but one of the reasons I got my K-5 and K10D...is to fully use every part of the camera. I maybe different, using a hand held light meter occasionally, but let me tell you it's a wonderful part of photography for me to do my own metering. My first good camera, the Pentax S1a, did not have an in camera light meter. That was back in the 1960's so I had to learn to use a separate meter and I also carried around a gray card...still do, in fact. In the '70's and '80's I got some medium format cameras. A Zeiss Ikon Super Ikonta B and a Mamiya 220 Pro F, twin lens reflex and also a Leica 35mm Rangefinder. All these cameras did not have an in camera meter...so metering became and is second nature. But with hand held metering, you need to be able to precisely control your shutter speed and F stop. For that you need full functioning setting ability, which with two wheels, set on M...is quite easy to do. To me it's great to meter, then set, then check exposure with the monitor image...then try a number of different settings of F stop/shutter speed..if you want....all as dictated by the hand held meter. My meters...give a plethora of settings...which I love to see and use if I choose...to experiment . Excuse my long windedness....but a K10D, K-5...advanced camera gives me that ability. I also set them on aperture priority an awful lot too. But I do like to meter with a good hand held meter. My favourite hand held meter, is my new Sekonic L-398 Studio Deluxe lll. I've got three light meters, including the meter I bought back in 1968. It's a Sekonic L-248 and it still works. Last edited by lesmore49; 05-20-2016 at 08:08 AM.

05-21-2016, 07:43 PM	#27
Pentax Frank New Member Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 14	Advanced use One of the advantages of the advanced moniker is you can put on the external battery grip. This allows easier vertical shooting. double the battery life and a more solid grip when using heavy lenses. In my humble opinion there are only two types of photographers amateur or professional . If you are a pro you will know what you need and purchase accordingly . Amateurs will buy the camera according to their economic situation and will be quite capable to learn all what their selected camera has to offer.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
What is "it" about a DSLR?	ohaya	Troubleshooting and Beginner Help	18	02-18-2016 10:07 AM
People "What Doesn't Kill You Makes You Stronger" K-3 Contest Round 2 "Hot Places"	l.cole	Pentax K-3 Photo Contest	4	07-13-2014 10:57 AM
Seeking gift-buying advice (or, "what's a decent camera for a 7-year-old?")	wedge	Troubleshooting and Beginner Help	8	11-14-2013 09:43 PM
What makes a lens "3-D"?	scratchpaddy	Pentax SLR Lens Discussion	60	03-02-2013 12:00 AM
What exactly makes a lens a "MACRO"?	wedge	Pentax SLR Lens Discussion	19	04-26-2010 11:11 AM

05-19-2016, 12:08 PM	#16
TER-OR Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Dundee, IL Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,699	Occasionally I meet someone who put their DSLR on a shelf because it was too complicated. They thought a "better" camera would be easier to use. Generally I tell them the higher up the product chart you go, the more the photographer has to do. The more they have direct control over, that is. I like that the K30/50 series has been gifted two wheels, that makes them a big step above entry-level.

05-19-2016, 01:27 PM - 1 Like	#17
Kerrowdown PEG Moderator Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Highlands of Scotland... "Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand" - William Blake Photos: Gallery Posts: 57,858	Originally posted by johnhilvert "for the less advanced user" I think the PC speak for that is "entry level"

05-19-2016, 02:45 PM	#18
Tony Belding Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Hamilton, Texas Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 787	Originally posted by TER-OR Occasionally I meet someone who put their DSLR on a shelf because it was too complicated. Although this is straying a bit from the topic, I have to recollect. . . When I got my Sears KS-2 (rebadged Ricoh XR7) around 1982 or so, I was so fearful of its many dials and numbers that I stuck it in the back of the closet for about six months, or maybe upwards of a year, before I finally snagged a book (The Complete Kodak Book of Photography, which is wonderful and I still have) to teach me how to use it. And that was with, basically: aperture, shutter speed and ASA speed. Now think of all the settings a DSLR has! Quote: I like that the K30/50 series has been gifted two wheels, that makes them a big step above entry-level. I question the value of the second control dial. I don't use full M mode all that often, and I don't like trying to remember which dial does what.

05-19-2016, 03:46 PM	#19
RKKS08 Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Frankfurt am Main Posts: 1,241	Originally posted by Tony Belding I question the value of the second control dial. I don't use full M mode all that often, and I don't like trying to remember which dial does what. I use M mode just for M and K lenses, flash, and experiments. And, with the K200D, my work flow is automized and the index finger is near the EV button anyway (instead at the non-existing front wheel), so it does not seem to make a difference. I doubt I would change values with the 2 wheels simultaniously. Getting used to 2 wheels now would probably slow me down for quite a while when my finger searches for the EV button.

05-19-2016, 04:01 PM	#20
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,184	Originally posted by Tony Belding I question the value of the second control dial. I don't use full M mode all that often, and I don't like trying to remember which dial does what. I don't always remember, but even when I change the wrong thing, have to move it back and then move the other, it is easier than my Q-7, which requires that I lower the camera from my eye, figure out which value will be controlled by the wheel right now and whether i have to press a button before I can change the thing I want to change.

05-20-2016, 05:14 AM	#21
TER-OR Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Dundee, IL Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,699	Most often I use TAv mode - front wheel for shutter speed, rear for aperture. Balance for your requirements.

05-20-2016, 05:27 AM	#22
BrianR Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Ontario Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,332	Originally posted by RKKS08 Getting used to 2 wheels now would probably slow me down for quite a while when my finger searches for the EV button. It took me a few months of retraining the fingers to make it automatic, but it was totally worth it for me. It's not really the simultaneous control of shutter and aperture that I like, just that there are buttons to control aperture, shutter and iso without diving into a menu (k100d could only control iso via menus).

05-20-2016, 08:10 AM	#24
Tony Belding Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Hamilton, Texas Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 787	Originally posted by Tony Belding I question the value of the second control dial. I don't use full M mode all that often, and I don't like trying to remember which dial does what. OK, now I take it back. I've just been discovering how cool the Hyper Program Mode can be. With aperture on the front dial, shutter speed on the back, and the green button right next to the shutter release button, I have everything I need.

05-20-2016, 02:56 PM	#25
TheOneAndOnlyJH Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Buffalo, NY Posts: 351	Originally posted by Tony Belding OK, now I take it back. I've just been discovering how cool the Hyper Program Mode can be. With aperture on the front dial, shutter speed on the back, and the green button right next to the shutter release button, I have everything I need. I've got it set exactly the opposite on mine. Two reasons... 1) Looking at the top display on my K-3, the shutter speed is closer to the front dial and the aperture value is closer to the rear dial. When I first started getting used to it I could look at it and quickly remind myself which dial did what. 2) Most DSLR's with two control dials that I've tried set aperture for rear and shutter speed for front by default, so if I learn that way I'll be better off if I pick up someone else's camera or end up upgrading to a new camera. (Just like I learned to write right handed so I could use any old pair of scissors! ) In Tv and Av modes I set the second dial to adjust ISO. This way my front and rear dials work the same as in Hyper Program, but the ISO adjusts to compensate. This is useful for keeping a fixed aperture in Av but bumping the ISO and shutter speed to prevent motion blur, or keeping a fixed shutter speed in Tv but bumping the ISO and closing the aperture to increase depth of focus (almost as if in TAv mode, but still letting the camera set the exposure intelligently). If you use exposure compensation (+/-) often, you could set that for the second dial instead of ISO, but I find that my K-3 usually does pretty well, and if it doesn't I change metering to center weighted and it usually works just fine. Generally I use TAv in low light (pretty much a full time HyperProgram), Av in bright light, and manual when I use flash. (p-TTL flash tends to screw up with auto-ISO. It usually sets the flash too low and boost ISO too high, so you get a grainy pic with poor white balance between the flash and ambient lighting.)

05-20-2016, 03:31 PM	#26
Tony Belding Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Hamilton, Texas Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 787	Originally posted by TheOneAndOnlyJH I've got it set exactly the opposite on mine. Two reasons... 1) Looking at the top display on my K-3, the shutter speed is closer to the front dial and the aperture value is closer to the rear dial. When I first started getting used to it I could look at it and quickly remind myself which dial did what. 2) Most DSLR's with two control dials that I've tried set aperture for rear and shutter speed for front by default, so if I learn that way I'll be better off if I pick up someone else's camera or end up upgrading to a new camera. (Just like I learned to write right handed so I could use any old pair of scissors! ) The K-S2 doesn't have a top panel display. And my 35mm film SLRs, as well as the Fuji X-T1, have aperture control on the lens, shutter control on the body. So, it just seems easier to remember if I use the dials closer to the original location of those controls.

05-21-2016, 09:04 PM	#28
SKYGZR Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Milky Way Galaxy, Planet Earth, Speeding towards the Virgo Supercluster Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 156	Everyone is an "Amateur" unless they are "making a living" capturing/publishing/get'n paid/ with their work.. (and not having to rely on ANY OTHER type/form of "income" to make that living)...and we're not talk'n just tak'n pic's of "weddings" and get'n "paid" to do it. It's more than "making a living" than just that..must be more rounded, and accomplished in other avenues to proclaim "Professional Status"..