.DNG vs. .PEF

**Kerrowdown** · 05-22-2016, 06:33 AM

Originally posted by SKYGZR

DNG vs. .PEF

I use DNG exclusively rather than Pentax own proprietary PEF, especially made more poignant when there are Pentax cameras out there, that don't support PEF... K-500, K-50, K-30, K-01 to name a few and there may well be others.

**newmikey** · 05-22-2016, 06:37 AM

Originally posted by Kerrowdown

I use DNG exclusively rather than Pentax own proprietary PEF, especially made more poignant when there are Pentax cameras out there, that don't support PEF... K-500, K-50, K-30, K-01 to name a few and there may well be others.

Yep. Ever noticed that all of the newer Pentax bodies have PEF? I tend to see this as Pentax having recognized they have nothing to fear from maintaining their own proprietary format, possibly even working to have one-up over DNG.

robthebloke · 05-22-2016, 06:45 AM

Originally posted by newmikey

I'm fine with anyone using DNG, to be honest. Just not with people who claim it is more "future-proof" than PEF - that's baloney and FUD.

How is storing image data, in an open file format, in any way NOT future proof? Given the overwhelming number of canon, Nikon, Sony, and Olympus users out there who are also using DNG, you also have strength in numbers (compared to Pentax, which by all accounts is a fairly small market share). Arguing in favour of PEF over DNG as a long term archival format is a bit of stretch imho.

**Kerrowdown** · 05-22-2016, 06:52 AM

Originally posted by newmikey

possibly even working to have one-up over DNG

As both are RAW formats, how can one be better? at the end of the day I guess it comes down to workflow choices and what works for you, me I like the fact with DNGs processed with ACR, there are no sidecar xmp files to consider.

Not a Number · 05-22-2016, 07:02 AM

RAW files are just containers for the un-manipulated image data in a TIF compatible format. It's how and what auxiliary metadata is stored that is the makes the difference.

The way I look at is that you are dependent on Ricoh to implement the DNG files correctly. Even though Adobe licences/publishes specifications or issues RDKs Ricoh could always screw up. Then you'd have to wait for a firmware update and in the meanwhile you'd have to workaround whatever screw-up there was in the DNGs.

And even if you use DNGs they may not be handled correctly - look at Lightroom and Pixel Shift with Motion Correction files.

But then again if you use PEFs you have to wait until whatever software you are using other than DCU can handle the latest PEF.

I find it troubling that while my K10D can save RAW files as DNG I can take a PEF file and convert it to a DNG via Adobes DNG converter. If I put the DNG file on the card in my K10D it is not recognized. Of course it may be that the earliest version (Camera Raw 2.4) that my version of converter will save as is newer than what the K10D (latest firmware) can recognize.

bar_foo · 05-22-2016, 07:46 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Kerrowdown

As both are RAW formats, how can one be better? at the end of the day I guess it comes down to workflow choices and what works for you, me I like the fact with DNGs processed with ACR, there are no sidecar xmp files to consider.

There's a slight advantage, beyond format futureproofing, to DNGs created from PEFs via Adobe software: they get checksums, which out-of-camera PEFs and DNGs do not have. This checksum is checked by Adobe (and possibly other) software, which will alert you when a file has been corrupted so you can restore it from backup.

**newmikey** · 05-22-2016, 08:56 AM

Why I Stopped Using the DNG File Format

Kevin Patrick Robbins is a commercial, editorial, and advertising photographer based in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. He can explain this way better than I can.

bar_foo · 05-22-2016, 09:27 AM

Originally posted by newmikey

Why I Stopped Using the DNG File Format

Kevin Patrick Robbins is a commercial, editorial, and advertising photographer based in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. He can explain this way better than I can.

Basically what he says is: if you use Capture One as your raw converter, don't convert to DNG. Okay, but for those of us who don't plan on using Capture One, kind of irrelevant.

**Kerrowdown** · 05-22-2016, 09:32 AM

Originally posted by newmikey

He can explain this way better than I can.

As I already said "it comes down to workflow choices"

He's using Capture One and discussing camera systems that do not natively support DNG, so for him he considers those camera propriety files better for his workflow.

joergens.mi · 05-22-2016, 09:38 AM

Originally posted by newmikey

Why I Stopped Using the DNG File Format

Kevin Patrick Robbins is a commercial, editorial, and advertising photographer based in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. He can explain this way better than I can.

Very interesting article.

**newmikey** · 05-22-2016, 09:43 AM

People, you if can read no further between the lines than "oh, he's using Capture One and we don't so we're OK" I'm afraid the discussion here is pointless...

**acoufap** · 05-22-2016, 12:04 PM

Originally posted by bar_foo

Basically what he says is: if you use Capture One as your raw converter, don't convert to DNG. Okay, but for those of us who don't plan on using Capture One, kind of irrelevant.

We have to understand that dng and pef are both native Pentax formats and pef is a proprietary one. If you want to use Capture One as I do, simply use dng native from the camera. It's that easy and has nothing to with Adobe applications. Adobe seems to use the dng format as "workspace containers" for their applications and stores working instructions in it and CO simply doesn't understand these application specific dng containers.

I think I somewhere read that if you embed the original pef file into the dng file during the conversion process (an option of the conversion software), CO can work with these dng files if the original pef file format for the specific camera is supported.

totsmuyco · 05-27-2016, 07:33 PM

Forgive my ignorance, but which file is bigger, DNG or PEF?

**jatrax** · 05-27-2016, 08:53 PM

Originally posted by totsmuyco

Forgive my ignorance, but which file is bigger, DNG or PEF?

No significant difference. I recently tested with the K-1 and PEF files were about (on average) 300k smaller. On 45mb files that really doesn't matter.

stevebrot · 05-27-2016, 10:35 PM

Originally posted by acoufap

We have to understand that dng and pef are both native Pentax formats and pef is a proprietary one.

PEF is proprietary, but the structure is standards compliant to TIFF/EP structure and identifies as such in the header. As such PEF may be parsed by any compliant reader and readily programmed against. That may be why Dave Coffin has no problem staying up to date with PEF support in dcraw. For sure, proprietary metadata with processing "hints" remains proprietary, but the same is true with DNG.

In regards to DNG, the American Society of Media Photographers has published a set of best practices for using DNG. I found them interesting and useful:

DNG | dpBestflow

Steve

05-22-2016, 09:43 AM	#26
newmikey Site Supporter Join Date: May 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,287	People, you if can read no further between the lines than "oh, he's using Capture One and we don't so we're OK" I'm afraid the discussion here is pointless... Last edited by newmikey; 05-22-2016 at 10:11 AM.

05-27-2016, 10:35 PM	#30
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by acoufap We have to understand that dng and pef are both native Pentax formats and pef is a proprietary one. PEF is proprietary, but the structure is standards compliant to TIFF/EP structure and identifies as such in the header. As such PEF may be parsed by any compliant reader and readily programmed against. That may be why Dave Coffin has no problem staying up to date with PEF support in dcraw. For sure, proprietary metadata with processing "hints" remains proprietary, but the same is true with DNG. In regards to DNG, the American Society of Media Photographers has published a set of best practices for using DNG. I found them interesting and useful: DNG \| dpBestflow Steve Last edited by stevebrot; 05-27-2016 at 10:46 PM.

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05-22-2016, 06:33 AM	#16
Kerrowdown PEG Moderator Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Highlands of Scotland... "Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand" - William Blake Photos: Gallery Posts: 57,819	Originally posted by SKYGZR DNG vs. .PEF I use DNG exclusively rather than Pentax own proprietary PEF, especially made more poignant when there are Pentax cameras out there, that don't support PEF... K-500, K-50, K-30, K-01 to name a few and there may well be others.

05-22-2016, 06:37 AM	#17
newmikey Site Supporter Join Date: May 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,287	Originally posted by Kerrowdown I use DNG exclusively rather than Pentax own proprietary PEF, especially made more poignant when there are Pentax cameras out there, that don't support PEF... K-500, K-50, K-30, K-01 to name a few and there may well be others. Yep. Ever noticed that all of the newer Pentax bodies have PEF? I tend to see this as Pentax having recognized they have nothing to fear from maintaining their own proprietary format, possibly even working to have one-up over DNG.

05-22-2016, 06:45 AM	#18
robthebloke Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Sydney Photos: Albums Posts: 844	Originally posted by newmikey I'm fine with anyone using DNG, to be honest. Just not with people who claim it is more "future-proof" than PEF - that's baloney and FUD. How is storing image data, in an open file format, in any way NOT future proof? Given the overwhelming number of canon, Nikon, Sony, and Olympus users out there who are also using DNG, you also have strength in numbers (compared to Pentax, which by all accounts is a fairly small market share). Arguing in favour of PEF over DNG as a long term archival format is a bit of stretch imho.

05-22-2016, 06:52 AM	#19
Kerrowdown PEG Moderator Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Highlands of Scotland... "Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand" - William Blake Photos: Gallery Posts: 57,819	Originally posted by newmikey possibly even working to have one-up over DNG As both are RAW formats, how can one be better? at the end of the day I guess it comes down to workflow choices and what works for you, me I like the fact with DNGs processed with ACR, there are no sidecar xmp files to consider.

05-22-2016, 07:02 AM	#20
Not a Number Moderator Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Venice, CA Posts: 10,526	RAW files are just containers for the un-manipulated image data in a TIF compatible format. It's how and what auxiliary metadata is stored that is the makes the difference. The way I look at is that you are dependent on Ricoh to implement the DNG files correctly. Even though Adobe licences/publishes specifications or issues RDKs Ricoh could always screw up. Then you'd have to wait for a firmware update and in the meanwhile you'd have to workaround whatever screw-up there was in the DNGs. And even if you use DNGs they may not be handled correctly - look at Lightroom and Pixel Shift with Motion Correction files. But then again if you use PEFs you have to wait until whatever software you are using other than DCU can handle the latest PEF. I find it troubling that while my K10D can save RAW files as DNG I can take a PEF file and convert it to a DNG via Adobes DNG converter. If I put the DNG file on the card in my K10D it is not recognized. Of course it may be that the earliest version (Camera Raw 2.4) that my version of converter will save as is newer than what the K10D (latest firmware) can recognize.

05-22-2016, 07:46 AM - 1 Like	#21
bar_foo Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 108	Originally posted by Kerrowdown As both are RAW formats, how can one be better? at the end of the day I guess it comes down to workflow choices and what works for you, me I like the fact with DNGs processed with ACR, there are no sidecar xmp files to consider. There's a slight advantage, beyond format futureproofing, to DNGs created from PEFs via Adobe software: they get checksums, which out-of-camera PEFs and DNGs do not have. This checksum is checked by Adobe (and possibly other) software, which will alert you when a file has been corrupted so you can restore it from backup.

05-22-2016, 08:56 AM	#22
newmikey Site Supporter Join Date: May 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,287	Why I Stopped Using the DNG File Format Kevin Patrick Robbins is a commercial, editorial, and advertising photographer based in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. He can explain this way better than I can.

05-22-2016, 09:27 AM	#23
bar_foo Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 108	Originally posted by newmikey Why I Stopped Using the DNG File Format Kevin Patrick Robbins is a commercial, editorial, and advertising photographer based in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. He can explain this way better than I can. Basically what he says is: if you use Capture One as your raw converter, don't convert to DNG. Okay, but for those of us who don't plan on using Capture One, kind of irrelevant.

05-22-2016, 09:32 AM	#24
Kerrowdown PEG Moderator Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Highlands of Scotland... "Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand" - William Blake Photos: Gallery Posts: 57,819	Originally posted by newmikey He can explain this way better than I can. As I already said "it comes down to workflow choices" He's using Capture One and discussing camera systems that do not natively support DNG, so for him he considers those camera propriety files better for his workflow.

05-22-2016, 09:38 AM	#25
joergens.mi Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 408	Originally posted by newmikey Why I Stopped Using the DNG File Format Kevin Patrick Robbins is a commercial, editorial, and advertising photographer based in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. He can explain this way better than I can. Very interesting article.

05-22-2016, 12:04 PM	#27
acoufap Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Munich, Germany Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,187	Originally posted by bar_foo Basically what he says is: if you use Capture One as your raw converter, don't convert to DNG. Okay, but for those of us who don't plan on using Capture One, kind of irrelevant. We have to understand that dng and pef are both native Pentax formats and pef is a proprietary one. If you want to use Capture One as I do, simply use dng native from the camera. It's that easy and has nothing to with Adobe applications. Adobe seems to use the dng format as "workspace containers" for their applications and stores working instructions in it and CO simply doesn't understand these application specific dng containers. I think I somewhere read that if you embed the original pef file into the dng file during the conversion process (an option of the conversion software), CO can work with these dng files if the original pef file format for the specific camera is supported.

05-27-2016, 07:33 PM	#28
totsmuyco Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Iloilo City Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,276	Forgive my ignorance, but which file is bigger, DNG or PEF?

05-27-2016, 08:53 PM	#29
jatrax Site Supporter Join Date: May 2010 Location: Washington Cascades Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,991	Originally posted by totsmuyco Forgive my ignorance, but which file is bigger, DNG or PEF? No significant difference. I recently tested with the K-1 and PEF files were about (on average) 300k smaller. On 45mb files that really doesn't matter.