K-3 ii successor? Just curious...

redrockcoulee · 06-26-2016, 02:02 PM

Originally posted by zapp

I would not expect a high-end APS-C since high-end is now full frame - unless the camera fullfills a certain purpose like fast AF or designed for long focal length work or something small and nice. A new high-end APS-C will also require new APS-C glass and currently we are waiting for more FF glass.

I think that would be a mistake by Pentax to stop high end APS-C models. I do not think they came out with HD DA Limiteds for entry level cameras. No question additional FF lenses are a higher priority for lens introduction

**DW58** · 06-26-2016, 02:49 PM

Seems to me that Pentax/Ricoh or any other brand for that matter, have difficult decisions to make concerning their future. So many photographers with different wants and needs. Hard to please everyone. Like many decisions made, not everyone will be happy. So goes life.

fwcetus · 06-27-2016, 04:50 AM

Originally posted by redrockcoulee

I think that would be a mistake by Pentax to stop high end APS-C models. I do not think they came out with HD DA Limiteds for entry level cameras. No question additional FF lenses are a higher priority for lens introduction

Originally posted by DW58

Seems to me that Pentax/Ricoh or any other brand for that matter, have difficult decisions to make concerning their future. So many photographers with different wants and needs. Hard to please everyone. Like many decisions made, not everyone will be happy. So goes life.

I think that Ricoh/Pentax would be foolish to let APS-C "wither on the vine", and that there should still be development of advanced as well as entry level cropped bodies. There is too big a gap between the price of a K-3 class body and the K-1. I am sure Ricoh/Pentax would love it if every K-3 / K-3 II user upgraded to the K-1 would upgrade to the K-1, but that's not gonna happen (and not just for cost, at least not yet).

As for lenses, I also feel that Ricoh/Pentax will have to continue with two lines (FF and APS-C) of lens development, although (obviously) FF lens development should take priority. However, there should certainly be some APS-C users that will buy FF lenses, both current and future models.

normhead · 06-27-2016, 05:27 AM

Guys, act like you'v been around for a while. Remember the K-30 came out before the K-3 with an advanced AF and introduced some new features.

The K-70 is out. It has an advanced AF system that allows it to focus between frames shooting video and makes it better in live view. (But only with the new 55-300.)
It apparently uses the same Image Processor the K-1 does and brings the K-70 back to the same as a K-1 in terms of equivlances with much improved high ISO noise on a 24 MP sensor. SO back to about one stop performance difference flat out and equal images if DoF is the same, although the K-1 will still have more resolution for prints over 20"x30".

Traditionally Pentax experiments with the entry level model and then does a few tweaks to the flagship. So looking at the K-70, you already know what's coming in the flagship. The only question here is do I pick up the experiment, the K-70, and hope they got it right, or do I wait for the flag ship, when it will be solid and pretty much a finished product. And of course there will be pixels shift and the flippy screen.

If there is going to be more burst rate, that will come on the flag ship though. The flagship almost always has a higher burst rate than the mid-range version. Things like the faster shutter, which depends on more expensive components are often exclusive to the flagship model.

lesmore49 · 06-27-2016, 06:45 AM

Originally posted by Quartermaster James

Yes, please.

I really like the filter effect. I use it a lot and if anything I would want Pentax to enhance this system.

normhead · 06-27-2016, 07:02 AM

Originally posted by lesmore49

I really like the filter effect. I use it a lot and if anything I would want Pentax to enhance this system.

To me, I don't use it, but every now and then when bored I mess around with it. It's good entertainment. If it costs me $30 or less, which I'm sure it does, I'm happy to pay for it. Sometimes a camera is just for fun. Filters enhance that.

Nicolas06 · 07-02-2016, 03:05 AM

I expect the next APSC flagship to be a K1 with a sensor as least as good as the K70. It make sense as a small company to reuse your R&D and bring the most value you can.

So:
- KAF4
- Good video in LV mode thank the PDAF aboard the sensor.
- Would make sense to finally go 4K to finally close the gap of video features, but honestly we never know
- Articulated screen like KS2 or K1.
- Improvement of high iso handling algorithms, sensor subtraste (like K1) and slightly better sensor, maybe the one found in A6300 bringing up to 1EV more of high iso performance depending of the scene.
- Small improvement on PDAF tracking to match K1 algorithms.
- Ergonomics of K1 with 3 wheels and the function selector for the third wheel.
- the usual things: SR, pixel shift, astrotracer, optionnal AA filter, dual cards slots, about 80K point metering module etc.

Nicolas06 · 07-02-2016, 03:08 AM

Originally posted by normhead

The only question here is do I pick up the experiment, the K-70, and hope they got it right, or do I wait for the flag ship, when it will be solid and pretty much a finished product. And of course there will be pixels shift and the flippy screen.

If you get the K70, you discover that it is basically a K50 when using the OVF maybe with better noise handling but that it is only using LV you'll get the great AF and all. For day to day shooting, you'll find the k3 much better.

Willing to updgrade from a K3, you should look forward the next flagship except if you don't care at all of OVF AF performance.

sgirvin · 07-02-2016, 02:51 PM

I hope a new APS-C flagship comes out soon! I've been shooting some sports recently, and I've actually taken to borrowing Nikon stuff for that (*shiver*). It hurts me to say, but I just can't justify bringing a Pentax along when I could bring gear that autofocuses as fast as I can think. I don't know whether it's the AF motor that's the problem, or the algorithm, or maybe the lenses themselves, but something has to change.

If they can fix the AF Achilles heel, then I think that Pentax DSLRs will be the best all-purpose cameras on the market--great image quality, beautiful viewfinders, thoughtful button layout, by far the best ergonomics, a menu system that isn't idiotic, weatherproof, compact...

bobmaxja · 07-02-2016, 03:41 PM

Which Nikon ? Also everybody know that Pentax is not the best sport camera, alleast pentaxian.

starbase218 · 07-02-2016, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by plooksta

Hi. I am wondering where Pentax moves next in high-end APS-C cameras. Will there be a K-3 iii? I have seen some spurious rumors on youtube, but nothing to confirm them. Or will Pentax go for a redesigned brand new flagship APS-C camera. I have no idea what they could call it. They seem to have burnt the bridges in naming the K-1 the K-1. The K-2? I'd Iike to see 24MP, 10 fps, 4K video etc. etc. Does anyone have any idea?

Out of curiosity: why do you want 10 fps? I found that the K-3 only gets 8.3 fps if it doesn't need to refocus in between. If it does, it slows down to maybe 5 fps. So for me, 10 fps is a purely theoretical performance indicator that has little or no resemblance to actual shooting situations.

RockvilleBob · 07-02-2016, 04:27 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by starbase218

Out of curiosity: why do you want 10 fps? I found that the K-3 only gets 8.3 fps if it doesn't need to refocus in between. If it does, it slows down to maybe 5 fps. So for me, 10 fps is a purely theoretical performance indicator that has little or no resemblance to actual shooting situations.

At the end of the day it is how many keepers. Right now with moderate to fast action I am lucky to get 50% in focus. So my sense is the current 8 fps is not the problem, it is the relatively poor autofocus tracking. The K3 cannot keep up at its current 8 fps with existing autofocus, going faster may not yield any more keepers at the end of the day, maybe less. I am happy with 8 fps especially if the camera could track moderate to fast action at that rate. My hope is for a much improved autofocus tracking with the K3 follow on camera. More focus points, say 50 (still a generation behind canon and Nikon) and a faster processor and new algorithms if needed.

**jpzk** · 07-02-2016, 05:04 PM

I agree @RockvilleBob with the 8.3 frame rate which I think is sufficient.
Spay and pray is really not the way to end up with a better keeper rate.

New sensor (24 MP tough ... enough)
New AF (AF.C tracking)
More focus points
Better high ISO handling ...

That should wrap it up.

reh321 · 07-02-2016, 07:33 PM

Originally posted by Nicolas06

If you get the K70, you discover that it is basically a K50 when using the OVF maybe with better noise handling but that it is only using LV you'll get the great AF and all. For day to day shooting, you'll find the k3 much better.

Willing to updgrade from a K3, you should look forward the next flagship except if you don't care at all of OVF AF performance.

The truth is that we don't actually know much of anything about the K-70, and that will be true until real users get their hands on this camera and share some real images with the rest of us. I'll be looking at two things in particular

(1) How does the new KAF4 lens work?

(2) How well does high ISO work?

My belief is that Pentax is going to redirect their APS-C efforts more towards "event" photography, leaving "landscape" photography primarily to the FF line. In order to lure users away from other brands which need not be named here, they will need more reliable AF and better high ISO results. Just as the K-3ii was a small step up from the K-3, but provided testing of new concepts for the K-1, I believe the K-70 will provide testing of new {to Pentax} concepts for more expensive members of the APS-C line, and the K-70 will be a genuine success if it does lead to an improvement in those areas for the APS-C line, and the K-70 may seriously out-perform the older {but more expensive} members of the line in those areas if the new technologies do prove their worth.

Nicolas06 · 07-03-2016, 04:41 AM

Originally posted by reh321

My belief is that Pentax is going to redirect their APS-C efforts more towards "event" photography, leaving "landscape" photography primarily to the FF line. In order to lure users away from other brands which need not be named here, they will need more reliable AF and better high ISO results. Just as the K-3ii was a small step up from the K-3, but provided testing of new concepts for the K-1, I believe the K-70 will provide testing of new {to Pentax} concepts for more expensive members of the APS-C line, and the K-70 will be a genuine success if it does lead to an improvement in those areas for the APS-C line, and the K-70 may seriously out-perform the older {but more expensive} members of the line in those areas if the new technologies do prove their worth.

Using the OVF, the main sensor don't see the scene so like any DSLR before it it would have to rely on the dedicated PDAF and metering modules to perform AF and tracking as well as metering.

The K70 has same hardware as KS2 (or K5): 11 point AF module and 77B&W metering. It is impossible to do any tracking with that, the camera doesn't see an image but a few area with different shade of gray and the off center AF point are huge.

The difference come fom the main sensor that can provide for metering, tracking and PDAF. The sensor see the scene when the mirror is up only, So either you shoot in LV, eiter it isn't going to happen.

The next APSC flagship will likely be build uppon K1 technology, hopefully with some improvement factored in in key areas but while K70 may pave the way for a Pentax mirrorless it isn't going to provide any significant edge toward still shooting AF vs a KS2 and will remain a few steps backward old K3 except maybe for LV.

The specs are here, there no reason to think something will magically happen while the hardware is clearly not capable of it.

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06-26-2016, 02:02 PM	#31
redrockcoulee Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Medicine Hat Posts: 2,306	Originally posted by zapp I would not expect a high-end APS-C since high-end is now full frame - unless the camera fullfills a certain purpose like fast AF or designed for long focal length work or something small and nice. A new high-end APS-C will also require new APS-C glass and currently we are waiting for more FF glass. I think that would be a mistake by Pentax to stop high end APS-C models. I do not think they came out with HD DA Limiteds for entry level cameras. No question additional FF lenses are a higher priority for lens introduction

06-26-2016, 02:49 PM	#32
DW58 Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2015 Location: Rural Oregon Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 7,062	Seems to me that Pentax/Ricoh or any other brand for that matter, have difficult decisions to make concerning their future. So many photographers with different wants and needs. Hard to please everyone. Like many decisions made, not everyone will be happy. So goes life.

06-27-2016, 04:50 AM	#33
fwcetus Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: New England Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,286	Originally posted by redrockcoulee I think that would be a mistake by Pentax to stop high end APS-C models. I do not think they came out with HD DA Limiteds for entry level cameras. No question additional FF lenses are a higher priority for lens introduction Originally posted by DW58 Seems to me that Pentax/Ricoh or any other brand for that matter, have difficult decisions to make concerning their future. So many photographers with different wants and needs. Hard to please everyone. Like many decisions made, not everyone will be happy. So goes life. I think that Ricoh/Pentax would be foolish to let APS-C "wither on the vine", and that there should still be development of advanced as well as entry level cropped bodies. There is too big a gap between the price of a K-3 class body and the K-1. I am sure Ricoh/Pentax would love it if every K-3 / K-3 II user upgraded to the K-1 would upgrade to the K-1, but that's not gonna happen (and not just for cost, at least not yet). As for lenses, I also feel that Ricoh/Pentax will have to continue with two lines (FF and APS-C) of lens development, although (obviously) FF lens development should take priority. However, there should certainly be some APS-C users that will buy FF lenses, both current and future models.

06-27-2016, 05:27 AM	#34
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Guys, act like you'v been around for a while. Remember the K-30 came out before the K-3 with an advanced AF and introduced some new features. The K-70 is out. It has an advanced AF system that allows it to focus between frames shooting video and makes it better in live view. (But only with the new 55-300.) It apparently uses the same Image Processor the K-1 does and brings the K-70 back to the same as a K-1 in terms of equivlances with much improved high ISO noise on a 24 MP sensor. SO back to about one stop performance difference flat out and equal images if DoF is the same, although the K-1 will still have more resolution for prints over 20"x30". Traditionally Pentax experiments with the entry level model and then does a few tweaks to the flagship. So looking at the K-70, you already know what's coming in the flagship. The only question here is do I pick up the experiment, the K-70, and hope they got it right, or do I wait for the flag ship, when it will be solid and pretty much a finished product. And of course there will be pixels shift and the flippy screen. If there is going to be more burst rate, that will come on the flag ship though. The flagship almost always has a higher burst rate than the mid-range version. Things like the faster shutter, which depends on more expensive components are often exclusive to the flagship model.

06-27-2016, 06:45 AM	#35
lesmore49 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Western Canada Posts: 12,337	Originally posted by Quartermaster James Yes, please. I really like the filter effect. I use it a lot and if anything I would want Pentax to enhance this system.

06-27-2016, 07:02 AM	#36
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by lesmore49 I really like the filter effect. I use it a lot and if anything I would want Pentax to enhance this system. To me, I don't use it, but every now and then when bored I mess around with it. It's good entertainment. If it costs me $30 or less, which I'm sure it does, I'm happy to pay for it. Sometimes a camera is just for fun. Filters enhance that.

07-02-2016, 03:05 AM	#37
Nicolas06 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 4,854	I expect the next APSC flagship to be a K1 with a sensor as least as good as the K70. It make sense as a small company to reuse your R&D and bring the most value you can. So: - KAF4 - Good video in LV mode thank the PDAF aboard the sensor. - Would make sense to finally go 4K to finally close the gap of video features, but honestly we never know - Articulated screen like KS2 or K1. - Improvement of high iso handling algorithms, sensor subtraste (like K1) and slightly better sensor, maybe the one found in A6300 bringing up to 1EV more of high iso performance depending of the scene. - Small improvement on PDAF tracking to match K1 algorithms. - Ergonomics of K1 with 3 wheels and the function selector for the third wheel. - the usual things: SR, pixel shift, astrotracer, optionnal AA filter, dual cards slots, about 80K point metering module etc.

07-02-2016, 03:08 AM	#38
Nicolas06 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 4,854	Originally posted by normhead The only question here is do I pick up the experiment, the K-70, and hope they got it right, or do I wait for the flag ship, when it will be solid and pretty much a finished product. And of course there will be pixels shift and the flippy screen. If you get the K70, you discover that it is basically a K50 when using the OVF maybe with better noise handling but that it is only using LV you'll get the great AF and all. For day to day shooting, you'll find the k3 much better. Willing to updgrade from a K3, you should look forward the next flagship except if you don't care at all of OVF AF performance.

07-02-2016, 02:51 PM	#39
sgirvin Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Washington, DC / Palo Alto, CA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26	I hope a new APS-C flagship comes out soon! I've been shooting some sports recently, and I've actually taken to borrowing Nikon stuff for that (shiver). It hurts me to say, but I just can't justify bringing a Pentax along when I could bring gear that autofocuses as fast as I can think. I don't know whether it's the AF motor that's the problem, or the algorithm, or maybe the lenses themselves, but something has to change. If they can fix the AF Achilles heel, then I think that Pentax DSLRs will be the best all-purpose cameras on the market--great image quality, beautiful viewfinders, thoughtful button layout, by far the best ergonomics, a menu system that isn't idiotic, weatherproof, compact...

07-02-2016, 03:41 PM	#40
bobmaxja Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Laval, Quebec Canada Posts: 2,171	Which Nikon ? Also everybody know that Pentax is not the best sport camera, alleast pentaxian.

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07-02-2016, 04:15 PM	#41
starbase218 Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Planet Earth, Sol system, Milky Way galaxy, Universe Posts: 1,119	Originally posted by plooksta Hi. I am wondering where Pentax moves next in high-end APS-C cameras. Will there be a K-3 iii? I have seen some spurious rumors on youtube, but nothing to confirm them. Or will Pentax go for a redesigned brand new flagship APS-C camera. I have no idea what they could call it. They seem to have burnt the bridges in naming the K-1 the K-1. The K-2? I'd Iike to see 24MP, 10 fps, 4K video etc. etc. Does anyone have any idea? Out of curiosity: why do you want 10 fps? I found that the K-3 only gets 8.3 fps if it doesn't need to refocus in between. If it does, it slows down to maybe 5 fps. So for me, 10 fps is a purely theoretical performance indicator that has little or no resemblance to actual shooting situations.

07-02-2016, 04:27 PM - 1 Like	#42
RockvilleBob Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Lewes DE USA Photos: Albums Posts: 1,780	Originally posted by starbase218 Out of curiosity: why do you want 10 fps? I found that the K-3 only gets 8.3 fps if it doesn't need to refocus in between. If it does, it slows down to maybe 5 fps. So for me, 10 fps is a purely theoretical performance indicator that has little or no resemblance to actual shooting situations. At the end of the day it is how many keepers. Right now with moderate to fast action I am lucky to get 50% in focus. So my sense is the current 8 fps is not the problem, it is the relatively poor autofocus tracking. The K3 cannot keep up at its current 8 fps with existing autofocus, going faster may not yield any more keepers at the end of the day, maybe less. I am happy with 8 fps especially if the camera could track moderate to fast action at that rate. My hope is for a much improved autofocus tracking with the K3 follow on camera. More focus points, say 50 (still a generation behind canon and Nikon) and a faster processor and new algorithms if needed.

07-02-2016, 05:04 PM	#43
jpzk Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Québec Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,251	I agree @RockvilleBob with the 8.3 frame rate which I think is sufficient. Spay and pray is really not the way to end up with a better keeper rate. New sensor (24 MP tough ... enough) New AF (AF.C tracking) More focus points Better high ISO handling ... That should wrap it up.

07-02-2016, 07:33 PM	#44
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,177	Originally posted by Nicolas06 If you get the K70, you discover that it is basically a K50 when using the OVF maybe with better noise handling but that it is only using LV you'll get the great AF and all. For day to day shooting, you'll find the k3 much better. Willing to updgrade from a K3, you should look forward the next flagship except if you don't care at all of OVF AF performance. The truth is that we don't actually know much of anything about the K-70, and that will be true until real users get their hands on this camera and share some real images with the rest of us. I'll be looking at two things in particular (1) How does the new KAF4 lens work? (2) How well does high ISO work? My belief is that Pentax is going to redirect their APS-C efforts more towards "event" photography, leaving "landscape" photography primarily to the FF line. In order to lure users away from other brands which need not be named here, they will need more reliable AF and better high ISO results. Just as the K-3ii was a small step up from the K-3, but provided testing of new concepts for the K-1, I believe the K-70 will provide testing of new {to Pentax} concepts for more expensive members of the APS-C line, and the K-70 will be a genuine success if it does lead to an improvement in those areas for the APS-C line, and the K-70 may seriously out-perform the older {but more expensive} members of the line in those areas if the new technologies do prove their worth.

07-03-2016, 04:41 AM	#45
Nicolas06 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 4,854	Originally posted by reh321 My belief is that Pentax is going to redirect their APS-C efforts more towards "event" photography, leaving "landscape" photography primarily to the FF line. In order to lure users away from other brands which need not be named here, they will need more reliable AF and better high ISO results. Just as the K-3ii was a small step up from the K-3, but provided testing of new concepts for the K-1, I believe the K-70 will provide testing of new {to Pentax} concepts for more expensive members of the APS-C line, and the K-70 will be a genuine success if it does lead to an improvement in those areas for the APS-C line, and the K-70 may seriously out-perform the older {but more expensive} members of the line in those areas if the new technologies do prove their worth. Using the OVF, the main sensor don't see the scene so like any DSLR before it it would have to rely on the dedicated PDAF and metering modules to perform AF and tracking as well as metering. The K70 has same hardware as KS2 (or K5): 11 point AF module and 77B&W metering. It is impossible to do any tracking with that, the camera doesn't see an image but a few area with different shade of gray and the off center AF point are huge. The difference come fom the main sensor that can provide for metering, tracking and PDAF. The sensor see the scene when the mirror is up only, So either you shoot in LV, eiter it isn't going to happen. The next APSC flagship will likely be build uppon K1 technology, hopefully with some improvement factored in in key areas but while K70 may pave the way for a Pentax mirrorless it isn't going to provide any significant edge toward still shooting AF vs a KS2 and will remain a few steps backward old K3 except maybe for LV. The specs are here, there no reason to think something will magically happen while the hardware is clearly not capable of it.