Firmware wish list - stop down metering in shutter release in M mode

k22 · 05-28-2016, 12:14 PM

If stop down metering is possible in manual mode, surely it must be possible to incorporate this function into the shutter release cycle. This would save a step when shooting non-A lenses. I shoot alot with manual lenses and wish Pentax would do this...

**WPRESTO** · 05-28-2016, 01:12 PM

The trick is: the camera doesn't what F-stop is set, and cannot set the correct TV for an M-series lens until it is stopped down, so firmware would have to close the aperture and set the TV at half-press where normally it would trigger AF. However, I believe that aperture closure and shutter release are interconnected in such a way that the firmware cannot selectively operate one separately from the other. Only mirror-up can be activated independently SFAIK. The firmware would have to alter the sequence for aperture closure, TV determination, and shutter release, and I don't think that is possible.

**UncleVanya** · 05-28-2016, 01:15 PM

Originally posted by WPRESTO

The trick is: the camera doesn't what F-stop is set, and cannot set the correct TV for an M-series lens until it is stopped down, so firmware would have to close the aperture and set the TV at half-press where normally it would trigger AF. However, I believe that aperture closure and shutter release are interconnected in such a way that the firmware cannot selectively operate one separately from the other. Only mirror-up can be activated independently SFAIK. The firmware would have to alter the sequence for aperture closure, TV determination, and shutter release, and I don't think that is possible.

Then how does Green Button mode work? And how does DOF preview work?

Adam · 05-28-2016, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by k22

If stop down metering is possible in manual mode, surely it must be possible to incorporate this function into the shutter release cycle. This would save a step when shooting non-A lenses. I shoot alot with manual lenses and wish Pentax would do this...

It's been suggested before, and frankly Pentax reps don't seem particularly inclined to make such a change

It would certainly make life a little bit easier.

Muscle memory is the way to go, I guess!

Adam
PentaxForums.com Webmaster (Site Usage Guide | Site Help | My Photography)

PentaxForums.com server and development costs are user-supported. You can help cover these costs by donating or purchasing one of our Pentax eBooks. Or, buy your photo gear from our affiliates, Adorama, B&H Photo, KEH, or Topaz Labs, and get FREE Marketplace access - click here to see how! Trusted Pentax retailers:

stevebrot · 05-28-2016, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by WPRESTO

The trick is: the camera doesn't what F-stop is set, and cannot set the correct TV for an M-series lens until it is stopped down, so firmware would have to close the aperture and set the TV at half-press where normally it would trigger AF. However, I believe that aperture closure and shutter release are interconnected in such a way that the firmware cannot selectively operate one separately from the other. Only mirror-up can be activated independently SFAIK. The firmware would have to alter the sequence for aperture closure, TV determination, and shutter release, and I don't think that is possible.

Originally posted by UncleVanya

Then how does Green Button mode work? And how does DOF preview work?

I believe the OP is suggesting a type of Av mode with half-press for stop-down. The feature would only work with K-mount lenses. FWIW, a similar approach was used on the Yashica AX film camera in the early 1970s.

Steve

k22 · 05-28-2016, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by stevebrot

I believe the OP is suggesting a type of Av mode with half-press for stop-down. The feature would only work with K-mount lenses. FWIW, a similar approach was used on the Yashica AX film camera in the early 1970s.

Steve

I'm thinking of a combined meter and shutter release function. One push of the shutter button releases the aperture lever, moves the mirror, takes a light reading, sets the required settings, captures the image, releases the mirror, re-engages the aperture lever, saves the image.

**WPRESTO** · 05-28-2016, 06:08 PM

I'll confess that when I purchased my first Pentax digital (10D) I was very disappointed that my older TTL flash units (two 280's, Sunpak 444, etc) would only work in manual or thyristor mode. I thought Pentax should have and eventually would upgrade firmware to allow TTL operation with legacy strobes, but no go. Doesn't matter now as I have several strobes that provide PTTL on ASPC bodies and for ASPC mode and some (not all) for FF mode on a K1.

edmundrt · 05-29-2016, 09:42 AM

It would be a really lovely thing to have. I have a couple of old late-model M42 cameras (Chinon CE Memotron, etc) that shoot Av that way and it actually becomes very intuitive, as you can focus with an open aperture, press the shutter button halfway, take your meter reading AND get a DoF preview simultaneously, then decide if you like the combination of speed and DoF and press the shutter all the way down to get the shot.

deus ursus · 05-29-2016, 02:40 PM

I'd like that feature as well, but not in M mode, as that would take away the control of the exposure. A setting in user mode would be a better option IMHO. That way you could have a "half automated" mode in user mode, and still have full control in M mode.

k22 · 05-29-2016, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by deus ursus

I'd like that feature as well, but not in M mode, as that would take away the control of the exposure. A setting in user mode would be a better option IMHO. That way you could have a "half automated" mode in user mode, and still have full control in M mode.

Exactly. Or just allow it as a setting that you can program into Manual, User, etc. I can't imagine it's a hard thing to do.

TheOneAndOnlyJH · 05-31-2016, 10:25 AM

I'd imagine it would be easy enough to accomplish: push shutter button, camera closes aperture, pauses to meter, then flips up the mirror and takes the shot.

The main problem I see is the lag during metering before it lifts the mirror and takes the picture. People complain enough about P-TTL delay where it's basically doing the same thing (any P-TTL, not just on the K-3). I'm sure they would complain about this lag too. You can't nitpick flaws in a feature that doesn't exist though!

I'm sure the engineers weighed the pros and cons of adding extra functionality, and since this only applies to old lenses I can see why they might not want to spend the time developing it further. (Especially since people who are using these old lenses probably know enough to work around it or aren't using automatic settings anyway.) As much as I would like M lenses to work like A lenses, I understand that would be an added bonus feature, not something that should be expected.

I do agree that this would be nice feature you could enable as an advanced option though. (Just like the custom setting to allow using lenses without an aperture ring set to "A")

deus ursus · 05-31-2016, 03:04 PM

The problem I see is that the metering with M/K lenses seems to be a bit off. When I meter with the green button, The first shot is never, or at least very seldom, not correctly exposed, so I need to adjust either shutter speed or aperture to get the right exposure. I'm not sure if the error is consistent, so it can be fixed with exposure compensation. If so, there really is no problem, but I believe someone here on this forum mentioned something about the metering not being consistent throughout the aperture range.

JBox · 06-04-2016, 06:35 AM - **1 Like**

I am one of those who has suggested this before (but not the first). My idea was to implement it as a new exposure mode that would be a hybrid between M and Av. See my post here documenting it for the K-1, although it could be any recent Pentax DSLR. The new exposure mode would be enabled with a new option for custom function "Using Aperture Ring". This would allow the new Av-like functionality with K/M lenses while not changing any of the existing exposure modes, and allowing use the current way of doing things.

I believe Adam has discussed this idea with one of the Pentax reps at WPPI, and they gave some odd objections that I don't fully understand. I think if we bring it to their attention again, it might go better if we emphasize that it is basically a user interface change that does not change the underlying camera functionality. Maybe that would help?

k22 · 06-04-2016, 10:48 AM

Originally posted by JBox

I am one of those who has suggested this before (but not the first). My idea was to implement it as a new exposure mode that would be a hybrid between M and Av. See my post here documenting it for the K-1, although it could be any recent Pentax DSLR. The new exposure mode would be enabled with a new option for custom function "Using Aperture Ring". This would allow the new Av-like functionality with K/M lenses while not changing any of the existing exposure modes, and allowing use the current way of doing things.

I believe Adam has discussed this idea with one of the Pentax reps at WPPI, and they gave some odd objections that I don't fully understand. I think if we bring it to their attention again, it might go better if we emphasize that it is basically a user interface change that does not change the underlying camera functionality. Maybe that would help?

How do we bring it to their attention?

JBox · 06-04-2016, 11:42 AM

Originally posted by k22

How do we bring it to their attention?

The way that I know of is through Adam here on the forums going to shows and talking to Pentax reps. I think the next show is Photokina, which is later this year? There are now two threads here and here for various firmware ideas, so Adam is going to have quite a long list if he takes them all! I think the idea in the first of those threads is to get a list of the most important ones or ones that people like the most, rather than all of them. I am not aware of any formalized way to get this info to Pentax.

05-28-2016, 12:14 PM	#1
k22 Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 153	Firmware wish list - stop down metering in shutter release in M mode If stop down metering is possible in manual mode, surely it must be possible to incorporate this function into the shutter release cycle. This would save a step when shooting non-A lenses. I shoot alot with manual lenses and wish Pentax would do this...

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Stop down metering only works in liveview on K-R with manual M lenses	DadsMX	Troubleshooting and Beginner Help	14	06-29-2016 06:14 AM
Pentax 67 now meters only in stop-down mode	MorgothV8	Troubleshooting and Beginner Help	5	01-31-2016 12:43 AM
Stop Down Metering in K30 (with Extension Tube & Lens Reversed)	rp_dxn	Pentax K-30 & K-50	5	09-23-2013 11:43 PM
stop-down metering and Av mode	Beau	Pentax DSLR Discussion	15	06-02-2009 09:58 PM
K10D, SMC-M lenses, stop-down metering	J2R	Pentax DSLR Discussion	10	05-22-2009 03:26 AM

05-28-2016, 01:12 PM	#2
WPRESTO Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Massachusetts Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 59,084	The trick is: the camera doesn't what F-stop is set, and cannot set the correct TV for an M-series lens until it is stopped down, so firmware would have to close the aperture and set the TV at half-press where normally it would trigger AF. However, I believe that aperture closure and shutter release are interconnected in such a way that the firmware cannot selectively operate one separately from the other. Only mirror-up can be activated independently SFAIK. The firmware would have to alter the sequence for aperture closure, TV determination, and shutter release, and I don't think that is possible.

05-28-2016, 01:15 PM	#3
UncleVanya Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2014 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 28,381	Originally posted by WPRESTO The trick is: the camera doesn't what F-stop is set, and cannot set the correct TV for an M-series lens until it is stopped down, so firmware would have to close the aperture and set the TV at half-press where normally it would trigger AF. However, I believe that aperture closure and shutter release are interconnected in such a way that the firmware cannot selectively operate one separately from the other. Only mirror-up can be activated independently SFAIK. The firmware would have to alter the sequence for aperture closure, TV determination, and shutter release, and I don't think that is possible. Then how does Green Button mode work? And how does DOF preview work?

05-28-2016, 02:16 PM	#4
Adam Administrator Site Webmaster Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arizona Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 51,593	Originally posted by k22 If stop down metering is possible in manual mode, surely it must be possible to incorporate this function into the shutter release cycle. This would save a step when shooting non-A lenses. I shoot alot with manual lenses and wish Pentax would do this... It's been suggested before, and frankly Pentax reps don't seem particularly inclined to make such a change It would certainly make life a little bit easier. Muscle memory is the way to go, I guess! Adam PentaxForums.com Webmaster (Site Usage Guide \| Site Help \| My Photography) PentaxForums.com server and development costs are user-supported. You can help cover these costs by donating or purchasing one of our Pentax eBooks. Or, buy your photo gear from our affiliates, Adorama, B&H Photo, KEH, or Topaz Labs, and get FREE Marketplace access - click here to see how! Trusted Pentax retailers:

05-28-2016, 02:46 PM	#5
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by WPRESTO The trick is: the camera doesn't what F-stop is set, and cannot set the correct TV for an M-series lens until it is stopped down, so firmware would have to close the aperture and set the TV at half-press where normally it would trigger AF. However, I believe that aperture closure and shutter release are interconnected in such a way that the firmware cannot selectively operate one separately from the other. Only mirror-up can be activated independently SFAIK. The firmware would have to alter the sequence for aperture closure, TV determination, and shutter release, and I don't think that is possible. Originally posted by UncleVanya Then how does Green Button mode work? And how does DOF preview work? I believe the OP is suggesting a type of Av mode with half-press for stop-down. The feature would only work with K-mount lenses. FWIW, a similar approach was used on the Yashica AX film camera in the early 1970s. Steve

05-28-2016, 03:26 PM	#6
k22 Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 153 Original Poster	Originally posted by stevebrot I believe the OP is suggesting a type of Av mode with half-press for stop-down. The feature would only work with K-mount lenses. FWIW, a similar approach was used on the Yashica AX film camera in the early 1970s. Steve I'm thinking of a combined meter and shutter release function. One push of the shutter button releases the aperture lever, moves the mirror, takes a light reading, sets the required settings, captures the image, releases the mirror, re-engages the aperture lever, saves the image.

05-28-2016, 06:08 PM	#7
WPRESTO Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Massachusetts Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 59,084	I'll confess that when I purchased my first Pentax digital (10D) I was very disappointed that my older TTL flash units (two 280's, Sunpak 444, etc) would only work in manual or thyristor mode. I thought Pentax should have and eventually would upgrade firmware to allow TTL operation with legacy strobes, but no go. Doesn't matter now as I have several strobes that provide PTTL on ASPC bodies and for ASPC mode and some (not all) for FF mode on a K1.

05-29-2016, 09:42 AM	#8
edmundrt Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Nagoya Posts: 577	It would be a really lovely thing to have. I have a couple of old late-model M42 cameras (Chinon CE Memotron, etc) that shoot Av that way and it actually becomes very intuitive, as you can focus with an open aperture, press the shutter button halfway, take your meter reading AND get a DoF preview simultaneously, then decide if you like the combination of speed and DoF and press the shutter all the way down to get the shot.

05-29-2016, 02:40 PM	#9
deus ursus Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Stårheim, Norway Posts: 658	I'd like that feature as well, but not in M mode, as that would take away the control of the exposure. A setting in user mode would be a better option IMHO. That way you could have a "half automated" mode in user mode, and still have full control in M mode.

05-29-2016, 03:02 PM	#10
k22 Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 153 Original Poster	Originally posted by deus ursus I'd like that feature as well, but not in M mode, as that would take away the control of the exposure. A setting in user mode would be a better option IMHO. That way you could have a "half automated" mode in user mode, and still have full control in M mode. Exactly. Or just allow it as a setting that you can program into Manual, User, etc. I can't imagine it's a hard thing to do.

05-31-2016, 10:25 AM	#11
TheOneAndOnlyJH Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Buffalo, NY Posts: 351	I'd imagine it would be easy enough to accomplish: push shutter button, camera closes aperture, pauses to meter, then flips up the mirror and takes the shot. The main problem I see is the lag during metering before it lifts the mirror and takes the picture. People complain enough about P-TTL delay where it's basically doing the same thing (any P-TTL, not just on the K-3). I'm sure they would complain about this lag too. You can't nitpick flaws in a feature that doesn't exist though! I'm sure the engineers weighed the pros and cons of adding extra functionality, and since this only applies to old lenses I can see why they might not want to spend the time developing it further. (Especially since people who are using these old lenses probably know enough to work around it or aren't using automatic settings anyway.) As much as I would like M lenses to work like A lenses, I understand that would be an added bonus feature, not something that should be expected. I do agree that this would be nice feature you could enable as an advanced option though. (Just like the custom setting to allow using lenses without an aperture ring set to "A")

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

05-31-2016, 03:04 PM	#12
deus ursus Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Stårheim, Norway Posts: 658	The problem I see is that the metering with M/K lenses seems to be a bit off. When I meter with the green button, The first shot is never, or at least very seldom, not correctly exposed, so I need to adjust either shutter speed or aperture to get the right exposure. I'm not sure if the error is consistent, so it can be fixed with exposure compensation. If so, there really is no problem, but I believe someone here on this forum mentioned something about the metering not being consistent throughout the aperture range.

06-04-2016, 06:35 AM - 1 Like	#13
JBox Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Michigan Posts: 109	I am one of those who has suggested this before (but not the first). My idea was to implement it as a new exposure mode that would be a hybrid between M and Av. See my post here documenting it for the K-1, although it could be any recent Pentax DSLR. The new exposure mode would be enabled with a new option for custom function "Using Aperture Ring". This would allow the new Av-like functionality with K/M lenses while not changing any of the existing exposure modes, and allowing use the current way of doing things. I believe Adam has discussed this idea with one of the Pentax reps at WPPI, and they gave some odd objections that I don't fully understand. I think if we bring it to their attention again, it might go better if we emphasize that it is basically a user interface change that does not change the underlying camera functionality. Maybe that would help?

06-04-2016, 10:48 AM	#14
k22 Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 153 Original Poster	Originally posted by JBox I am one of those who has suggested this before (but not the first). My idea was to implement it as a new exposure mode that would be a hybrid between M and Av. See my post here documenting it for the K-1, although it could be any recent Pentax DSLR. The new exposure mode would be enabled with a new option for custom function "Using Aperture Ring". This would allow the new Av-like functionality with K/M lenses while not changing any of the existing exposure modes, and allowing use the current way of doing things. I believe Adam has discussed this idea with one of the Pentax reps at WPPI, and they gave some odd objections that I don't fully understand. I think if we bring it to their attention again, it might go better if we emphasize that it is basically a user interface change that does not change the underlying camera functionality. Maybe that would help? How do we bring it to their attention?

06-04-2016, 11:42 AM	#15
JBox Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Michigan Posts: 109	Originally posted by k22 How do we bring it to their attention? The way that I know of is through Adam here on the forums going to shows and talking to Pentax reps. I think the next show is Photokina, which is later this year? There are now two threads here and here for various firmware ideas, so Adam is going to have quite a long list if he takes them all! I think the idea in the first of those threads is to get a list of the most important ones or ones that people like the most, rather than all of them. I am not aware of any formalized way to get this info to Pentax.