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06-01-2016, 09:09 AM   #1
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Flash sync with pop-up

Hello all,

I'm pretty new to flash and for the sake of learning and some creative inquiry would like to play with the pop-up flash faster than the 1/180 limit. I normally shoot in manual but even here the K50 adjusts to 1/180 when I pop up the flash. I've seen some wireless mode options and so on which might offer something but wanted some more seasoned advice before I possibly wasted my time.

Is there a way around this? I'm glad it does this but would sure appreciate a setting somewhere which would keep it from preventing the settings I choose.

My alternative is to use a basic manual flash but I seem to have misplaced mine just in time to experiment with this.

Thanks!

06-01-2016, 09:15 AM   #2
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It might help if you could tell us why you want a speed faster than 1/180.
06-01-2016, 09:20 AM   #3
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1/180s is the flash sync speed. You can't go higher and expect uniform exposure, hence the camera enforces the limit.

The only way around this would be HSS (high speed sync), which is supported by modern Pentax flash units.

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06-01-2016, 09:23 AM   #4
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As Adam said, the popup flash can't sync at higher speed than 1/180. You have to use an on camera flash supporting high speed sync (HSS) if you want to go higher than this.

QuoteOriginally posted by shortphaselabs Quote
My alternative is to use a basic manual flash but I seem to have misplaced mine just in time to experiment with this.
A manual flash will also be limited at 1/180, which is the sync speed for any flash not supporting HSS.

06-01-2016, 09:25 AM   #5
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I'm a student photographer and want to play around with the second shutter cut off. In flight school you practice slow flight because it's a single task which involves many fluid concepts simultaneously at play. This is a photographic version of slow flight.

I know there will be cut off. That's the point. I'm just not sure how to get it on an modern and advanced camera. Do you think manual flash would allow it?
06-01-2016, 09:48 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by shortphaselabs Quote
Hello all,

I'm pretty new to flash and for the sake of learning and some creative inquiry would like to play with the pop-up flash faster than the 1/180 limit. I normally shoot in manual but even here the K50 adjusts to 1/180 when I pop up the flash. I've seen some wireless mode options and so on which might offer something but wanted some more seasoned advice before I possibly wasted my time.

Is there a way around this? I'm glad it does this but would sure appreciate a setting somewhere which would keep it from preventing the settings I choose.

My alternative is to use a basic manual flash but I seem to have misplaced mine just in time to experiment with this.

Thanks!
The pop-up flash is not capable of High Speed Sync (HSS). If you want to trigger a flash off camera in HSS mode, you will need one HSS capable flash off camera and another HSS capable master flash on the camera to trigger it. Another option is getting one of the 2 or so P-TTL capable radio triggers
06-01-2016, 10:14 AM   #7
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Thanks for the replies enoeske, et all, but I actually want the curtain to cut off part of the frame. There are a hundred ways to prevent/ solve this problem but I can't find a single way to make it happen. I know this is undesirable but it's a very dense learning subject I want to explore.

Would the K50 let me go higher than 1/180 if I use a basic manual flash?
06-01-2016, 10:34 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by shortphaselabs Quote
Thanks for the replies enoeske, et all, but I actually want the curtain to cut off part of the frame. There are a hundred ways to prevent/ solve this problem but I can't find a single way to make it happen. I know this is undesirable but it's a very dense learning subject I want to explore.

Would the K50 let me go higher than 1/180 if I use a basic manual flash?
Pentax does not allow the flash/shutter to be out of sync. A manual flash will allow you to shoot higher than 1/180 but the hotshoe will not fire unless in HSS mode. Canon allows it, but I'm not sure about Nikon.

06-01-2016, 10:34 AM - 1 Like   #9
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To put it simply: No, it will not.

If I recall correctly, when you put a basic flash on your camera it might allow you to adjust the shutter faster than 1/180 in M mode, but then it will not send a signal to trigger the flash.

If you want to make a basic flash to work faster than sync speed you need a HSS capable flash to perform a little bit of trickery.
-Set the HSS sync flash to HSS at the lowest output.
-Set the basic flash to Slave mode.
When the HSS flash fires the slave will fire in response. If the HSS flash is set to a low output it shouldn't add much to the exposure.

See these two links for more information.
Link 1
Link 2 (I think this pretty much covers what you're hoping to try.)

---------- Post added 06-01-16 at 01:36 PM ----------

enoeske beat me to it! That's what I get for taking time to add links!
06-01-2016, 10:52 AM   #10
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This is very helpful, thanks so much! It looks like I may have to let this go. Or use my K1000. I've not given up yet.
06-01-2016, 10:06 PM   #11
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What you do not seem to understand is WHY there is a sync speed. The focal plane shutter is made up of two curtains that start on one side of the image frame (top, bottom, left or right). In order to expose the entire frame, the focal plane shutter, those two curtains, must operate in such a way as to allow one curtain to fully open before the second curtain starts to close. If you allow the second curtain to close partially, you get an underexposed portion of the image, and a visible division point somewhere in the frame. As the shutter speed gets faster and faster, the curtains opening and closing actually form a moving slit that passes in front of the imaging plane. The flash goes off when the first curtain attains full travel across the frame. The sync speed is the FASTEST shutter speed where the first curtain is fully open before the second curtain has started to close. You can go to higher speeds with the K1000 and get the banding effect on film. The camera designers have all fool-proofed the systems now so people don't make the mistake of using too high of a shutter speed.
06-01-2016, 10:55 PM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by shortphaselabs Quote
This is very helpful, thanks so much! It looks like I may have to let this go. Or use my K1000. I've not given up yet.

Yeah, you're 'protected' against making this mistake on many cameras, Shortphaselabs - all Pentax DSLRs AFAIK.


You could put a Pentax HSS capable flash on the hotshoe set to be a controller, and use it to trigger a nearby optical slave - that should demonstrate the banding you're trying to play with.


Seems like a lot of effort.
06-02-2016, 03:19 AM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by shortphaselabs Quote
This is very helpful, thanks so much! It looks like I may have to let this go. Or use my K1000. I've not given up yet.
Are you sure the K1000 can do this, I thought it was a horizontal shut not vertical
06-02-2016, 03:35 AM   #14
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As described I have accidentally achieved the effect using optical slaves, but the camera makes every effort to prevent you making this 'error'.

However, the same effect is easily achievable in PP....
06-02-2016, 04:38 AM   #15
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An option that might work for you is one of cheapo ebay wireless flash triggers from ~8-10 years ago. Especially if their batteries are low and you're using a flash with a long t.1 time, you can get partial exposures when at or below the x-sync limit. Results are generally unpredictable, so I'd ask around to borrow some old triggers someone tucked away in a box due to extreme frustration rather than purchase some old stock.

Or try to borrow another brand of dslr. Other brands have models that don't cut off the flash signal above the x-sync and let the photographers decide for themselves if they are willing to take this horrible risk. Since it's for the sake of education, you shouldn't be ostracized from PentaxForums for picking up a non-Pentax camera.

QuoteOriginally posted by BigDave Quote
What you do not seem to understand is WHY there is a sync speed.
Read his posts again, he's expecting the curtain to interfere with the exposure and wants to explore this concept.
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