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06-07-2016, 12:25 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by MichaelErlewine Quote
I will try to make it simple. I have a bellows, unconnected to the camera electronics. On the front standard is a lens... unconnected, but a lens with its own aperture ring. I set that ring so that I am getting the DOF (and thereby the bokeh) I want for the shot.

I turn on LiveView on the K1 and see an image, but it is too bright. I would like to narrow the shutter... adjust the shutter on the camera to darken the image somewhat, and have the image in my LiveView show the darkening. Ultimately I am trying to see what I am shooting (aperture and shutter-light) before taking a photo, as I do with the Nikons. Then I take a shot and the result is in the ballpark of what I saw on LiveView. That is the idea. In reality, I may want to take many shots (focus stacking) to process (later) into a single shot.

I am not being critical of the K1 as a critic, but trying to find a way to use this camera for its remarkable features. Of course I can use a Nikon, but I want to use the pixel-shift feature on the K1. I like the K1, but, like all of us, have to find a way to make it function in a workflow that is easier rather than difficult.
On Panasonic Micro Four-Thirds cameras there is a feature called "Constant Preview" that uses the selected aperture and shutter speed to simulate what the image will look like in Live View mode*. In this mode you can see over/under exposure right away as well as DOF.

I don't have a K-1, but all Pentax cameras that I've used stop down the aperture in Live View mode to provide a properly exposed view to compose with. That's why when you point a Pentax camera in Live View mode (with a lens that it can control the aperture with) towards a light source and then away, you can hear the aperture chatter like a small bird.

With an unconnected lens, it sounds like the camera is unable to compensate with shutter speed, thus turning the Live View in your circumstance to either too dark or too light to use.


* Mirrorless cameras are always in Live View mode, naturally.

06-07-2016, 12:31 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Given your above response, the Monitor will not automatically give you an accurate view of what the sensor registers. Pentax cameras adjust the gain on the Monitor for viewing ability.

However-there is a way to set the camera up so you can manually preview a manual exposure, which you would do on a bellows. Once accepted, then our issue is making a manual PixelShift or focus stacked exposure.

Again, I suspect the secret lies in removing all automation, which might not suit your workflow desires.

I'll find the solution tonight.
Thanks! I am posting about this K1 on various photography sites. I would like to be able to use this camera for the close-up work that I do. Just trying to get comfortable. I have done a lot of free videos on some of the technical aspects, here:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5xDr8mWUwrzi4bxY978O1DQykUrj-S2I

And many free e-books here:

e-Books

I like the K1 enough to make it part of the work I do, if I can manage it.

Thanks for helping!
06-07-2016, 12:40 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by MichaelErlewine Quote
I will try to make it simple. I have a bellows, unconnected to the camera electronics. On the front standard is a lens... unconnected, but a lens with its own aperture ring. I set that ring so that I am getting the DOF (and thereby the bokeh) I want for the shot.

I turn on LiveView on the K1 and see an image, but it is too bright. I would like to narrow the shutter... adjust the shutter on the camera to darken the image somewhat, and have the image in my LiveView show the darkening. Ultimately I am trying to see what I am shooting (aperture and shutter-light) before taking a photo, as I do with the Nikons. Then I take a shot and the result is in the ballpark of what I saw on LiveView. That is the idea. In reality, I may want to take many shots (focus stacking) to process (later) into a single shot.

I am not being critical of the K1 as a critic, but trying to find a way to use this camera for its remarkable features. Of course I can use a Nikon, but I want to use the pixel-shift feature on the K1. I like the K1, but, like all of us, have to find a way to make it function in a workflow that is easier rather than difficult.
I get it now... finally. Sorry but today my brain is slightly overworked. Simply you just want real preview according to parameters you set, shutter speed, aperture, etc. Have to take a look at my K-3 how it is working as the menu should be the same as K-3II who has pixelshift. The thing is that usually I do not use live view or seldom. I am sure that you will find a solution here. Plenty of smart folks are on PF. Just wondering what kind of live view tethering ability of K-1 gives you? Maybe there is some real preview settings with shutter controlling the live view. Just a wild guess.
06-07-2016, 12:44 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by MichaelErlewine Quote
And many free e-books here:

e-Books
I am working my way through the two on focus stacking in attempt to determine where the disconnect is. Many users on this site are proficient with the technique using Pentax cameras and I don't believe any secret knowledge is involved.


Steve

06-07-2016, 12:58 PM - 1 Like   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by MichaelErlewine Quote
And many free e-books here:

e-Books
QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
I am working my way through the two on focus stacking in attempt to determine where the disconnect is.
Well, I learned something already. The OP is doing close-up photography, not macro in the strict sense. The stacking technique is not a deep stack with many images, but instead uses very few images and loose technique with attention given to bokeh. Knowing how the blend will be managed and having a notion of both near focus and background blur allows for creative application of aperture at each point in the stack.

I don't have a K-1, but I think I may try this on my K-3. I have the gear and I have the flowers


Steve
06-07-2016, 01:20 PM   #21
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I've always used +- EV in my stacking myself, which works for me. But, if I needed a wider range of control over brightness, would outputting to another screen, a screen with much wider ranges of brightness, do it for you? Ie via HDMI to a spare TV / monitor / field monitor?
06-07-2016, 01:25 PM   #22
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Boy !
I was reading this thread out of curiosity (and hopefully learning new stuff) and I am totally amazed with the deep technical knowledge some of the folks here are posting/showing.
I am actually building a "list" for reference, seriously.

Great job folks and best of luck to the OP !
06-07-2016, 01:43 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nass Quote
I've always used +- EV in my stacking myself, which works for me. But, if I needed a wider range of control over brightness, would outputting to another screen, a screen with much wider ranges of brightness, do it for you? Ie via HDMI to a spare TV / monitor / field monitor?
I am interested in hearing about another screen, but for the work I want to do, I need to look more deeply into just using the K1. I have adapters for the Novoflex BALPRO bellows system and the Cambo Actus bellows system, and others. Using industrial lenses on a bellows system, but trying to determine whether the K1 can make it easier. If it can't, I can still use the K1 for special jobs, but not for regular work.

06-07-2016, 02:01 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by MichaelErlewine Quote
Yes, I can guess at what I might want, try to focus with the very narrow depth-of-field of the lens wide-open, take the photo, see how it turned out, and guess again, until I get the result into the ballpark I’m looking for. But, as mentioned, who wants to do that? Apparently not me. I am amazed that the folks at Pentax would not have thought it through, especially as there are scads of non-Pentax lenses out there that are way better than what they offer and that will easily mount on the Pentax K1.
Seems like your are familiar with using a Nikon camera but not so familiar on how to use a Pentax camera.
With a Pentax camera, you need a K mount lens. There are different type of K mounts: full manual focus and manual aperture, automatic aperture, and fully automatic.
If you use a full manual lens, you need to set the lens aperture manually, and you need to tell the camera to perform stop down light metering by pressing the green button, in AV mode, Sv mode, Tv mode P mode. In M mode the user fully control exposure and in this camera automation is disabled. If there is no communication between the lens and the camera (K1) , neither for the focus nor for the aperture control, it's easy, you can still adjust exposure manually because the camera tells you how far exposure is from the target , so you only have to tune aperture, iso, or shutter speed as you wish until the camera indicates that the exposure is centered. You can also control the exposure in live view because you can tell the camera to display an histogram that you can adjust in real time according to your taste. The K1 should be configured to display exposure and/or histogram in live view so that you can tune the system and obtain a good image without a trial and error process.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 06-07-2016 at 02:10 PM.
06-07-2016, 02:25 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by MichaelErlewine Quote
We all have opinions and we also have ideas about what works for us. I have scores of macro lenses, including some of the best that can be found in Nikon F-mount or adapted (Leica, Coastal Optics, industrial Nikkors, Zeiss Otus series, etc.), so I have very clear ideas about how corrected (apochromatic) a lens has to be for what Ineed to do. But not ridiculous and certainly not erroneous. I am sure the DFA 100 is what you find works best for you, but that does not mean I would find the same thing, etc. Make sense?
Michael, there's a thread I'll link that might be pertinent to the issue you're enquiring about with some wonderful stacked image examples.
Fun with images taken with the Pentax K1

Last edited by gatorguy; 06-07-2016 at 02:30 PM.
06-07-2016, 02:45 PM   #26
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There are two solutions, configurable. One is digital preview, which is moving the on-off button all the way to the right. It will show a shot stopped down. Or optical preview which will close the aperture where you can see the results. Which one you use is in the configuration somewhere.
06-07-2016, 03:04 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by MichaelErlewine Quote
However, although I have all the right adapters for bellows work, the lenses I really want to work with, like the El Nikkor 105mm APO lens, and other exotic lenses, really donít work...

These lenses that donít talk with the Pentax K1 are displayed in LiveView with their apertures always wide-open
have you actually confirmed that the aperture is held wide open, by looking into the end of the lens? how would the camera physically control that, on that lens?

because what it sounds like you are seeing is liveview that is not wysiwyg(what you see is what you get)... wysiwyg has nothing to do with the lens at all, and having liveview does not mean that the camera has wysiwyg capability.

the constant preview effect that john flores describes is not wysiwyg either, it's only a simulation, but it's much closer to what you want, and it could be sufficient for your needs.

what needs to happen in this thread is to work towards what biz engineer posted: "The K1 should be configured to display exposure and/or histogram in live view"... even if it's only a simulation of the actual exposure, and not true wysiwyg.

QuoteOriginally posted by MichaelErlewine Quote
with no ability to modify the shutter and have it modify the light in LiveView, and the only way to darken the image is to use a higher aperture, which of course I donít want to do. The aperture I want is, well, the aperture (and DOF) I want to use for the photo, etc.
a true wysiwyg display will show both the dof and the actual exposure of the shot, instead of simulating the exposure in the monitor, having to use some stupid dof preview button, etc... it works perfectly with legacy glass on my sony a7r, because that camera has wysiwyg capability, but unfortunately there is no pixel-shift capability... i think that i understand what you are looking for here, and why it matters.
06-07-2016, 03:19 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Seems like your are familiar with using a Nikon camera but not so familiar on how to use a Pentax camera.
With a Pentax camera, you need a K mount lens. There are different type of K mounts: full manual focus and manual aperture, automatic aperture, and fully automatic.
If you use a full manual lens, you need to set the lens aperture manually, and you need to tell the camera to perform stop down light metering by pressing the green button, in AV mode, Sv mode, Tv mode P mode. In M mode the user fully control exposure and in this camera automation is disabled. If there is no communication between the lens and the camera (K1) , neither for the focus nor for the aperture control, it's easy, you can still adjust exposure manually because the camera tells you how far exposure is from the target , so you only have to tune aperture, iso, or shutter speed as you wish until the camera indicates that the exposure is centered. You can also control the exposure in live view because you can tell the camera to display an histogram that you can adjust in real time according to your taste. The K1 should be configured to display exposure and/or histogram in live view so that you can tune the system and obtain a good image without a trial and error process.

Sounds good. Now all I need are some suggestions where to find these different steps. I want to let the aperture be set on the lens, not connected to the camera electronically. Then I need to vary the shutter and see the effects in LiveView, so that I can magnify and focus. If I am going to stack focus, I need to repeat this many times, perhaps.
06-07-2016, 03:26 PM - 1 Like   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by MichaelErlewine Quote
However, although I have all the right adapters for bellows work, the lenses I really want to work with, like the El Nikkor 105mm APO lens, and other exotic lenses, really donít work, or are, at least for my old aging body and mind, not worth the hassle. So far, I have been unable to find an acceptable (to me) way around this. Perhaps you know one.
Unfortunately there's just no way for the live view to darken with a manual lens. I'm not sure why that is, but:
  • If you put the camera in M mode and press the green button, the correct shutter speed will be set by the camera
  • If you set the DOF preview lever to "Digital Preview" under button customization, the camera will show you a preview shot with the actual exposure. May not be ideal, but perhaps something along the lines of what you're looking for.

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06-07-2016, 03:39 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by MichaelErlewine Quote
If I am going to stack focus, I need to repeat this many times, perhaps.
Well, if you set the exposure parameters first, you need to do it only once. Changing the focus for different sections of the stack won"t affect exposure that much, I guess.

---------- Post added 08-06-16 at 01:15 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
Unfortunately there's just no way for the live view to darken with a manual lens. I'm not sure why that is
Yes, in manual mode it does not work, but automatic setting of the shutter speed to get proper exposure, when aperture is manually fixed, works in every other mode, even if the lens is manual.

---------- Post added 08-06-16 at 01:24 ----------

I tried on both K3 and K1, it works the same way:
- if the manual lens has an aperture level, set the camera in manual exposure mode, and press the green button to stop down the lens performs light metering and calculate the proper shutter speed for the chosen aperture and iso
- if the manual lens does not have an aperture lever connected to the camera mount, the aperture diaphragm should be manually closed, and every exposure mode (except manual mode) will automatically calculate the shutter speed at a chosen iso.
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