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06-07-2016, 04:27 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by MichaelErlewine Quote
Like so many things in life, there is compromise, and compromise when we least appreciate it. This is the case with the new Pentax K1 36 Mpx camera with the remarkable Pixel-Shift feature. And I’m remarking!

First, it works, which is the good news. The not-so-good news, and for my work it is “bad”news, is that it really is only worthwhile for lenses that are made for the Pentax mount (and talk to the camera) and there are (pardon my opinion) not many lenses in that category that are “that” good yet, as in “well corrected.” I am sure they will come, but I don’t need to buy more lenses!
...

If you Pentax, who have been so helpful, want to see the images, this link should work. If you can figure out a reasonably "elegant" way to use bellows with the K1, with exotic lenses, please let me know.


The Pentax K1 Pixel-Shift Vs. the Nikon D810 - Gear Zone - Fotozones
i am just not understanding the issue. You are using M mode with various adapted lenses, all with aperture rings. Sometimes a bellows unit. You press the green button to set the shutter speed and are not getting a proper exposure? Please help me from there to understand what is not working.
You know about live histogram too right? a real time histogram is continuously overlaid on your live view so that you have the gained up LV image plus an accurate reading of the exposure.
pls clarify. thx!

06-07-2016, 04:51 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikeSF Quote
i am just not understanding the issue. You are using M mode with various adapted lenses, all with aperture rings. Sometimes a bellows unit. You press the green button to set the shutter speed and are not getting a proper exposure? Please help me from there to understand what is not working.
You know about live histogram too right? a real time histogram is continuously overlaid on your live view so that you have the gained up LV image plus an accurate reading of the exposure.
pls clarify. thx!
Will do, but it has to be tomorrow. Thanks.

---------- Post added 06-07-16 at 04:55 PM ----------

I have another question that may appear unrelated, but its not. What lenses in the Pentax mount are well corrected, fast, and sharp wide open?
06-07-2016, 05:09 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by MichaelErlewine Quote
Now all I need are some suggestions where to find these different steps. I want to let the aperture be set on the lens, not connected to the camera electronically. Then I need to vary the shutter and see the effects in LiveView, so that I can magnify and focus.
I provided detailed instructions for how this may be done with the exception of the last point and I believe that both Adam and I have explained that the screen brightness is never linked to EV with an uncoupled lens. With Pentax cameras it is not possible (at least not at present) to hack the exposure preview feature in M mode to dim the display unless the body is controlling the aperture.

If you need to adjust the brightness on demand you might try the outdoor view feature (Fx2/down-arrow?).


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06-07-2016, 05:21 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by gatorguy Quote
Michael, there's a thread I'll link that might be pertinent to the issue you're enquiring about with some wonderful stacked image examples.
Fun with images taken with the Pentax K1
Dang! Those are very cool! Thanks for the link.


Steve

06-07-2016, 05:27 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
In Live View, M Mode, aperture set on lens or camera, single fixed ISO, shutter speed set on camera (assuming you have metered and know your desired shutter speed) - when Digital Preview is enabled in Menu | Camera - 5 | Button Customization | Preview Dial | Digital Preview - pull the DoF Preview Lever encircling the shutter button to the right.

The Monitor will then show composition, exposure and focus (along with other user-selectable info e.g. Histogram).

User Guide p. 55
In a general sense this is a possible solution, but in LiveView & Digital Preview the camera actually takes and processes a test image and displays it on the Monitor. You can then choose to save that image as a RAW or discard it and try again, or discard it and actually take the photo.

The issue will be, in focus stacking, the time it will take to generate multiple previews and then take the images.

I'm not even sure this will work for previewing PixelShift images and taking several of them for your creative workflow.

Good luck experimenting! - I think this should be your general starting point.
06-08-2016, 04:15 AM - 2 Likes   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by MichaelErlewine Quote
Well, the aperture in my work is not how I control light. The shutter does that. They also suggest that I can use the -5EV to +5EV to adjust light, but that is not enough IMO.
Could you be a bit more specific about this - are you finding that even at -5EV, the LV display is still too bright? Much too bright or a little? What sort of brightness do you need to see - or lack of brightness? ie how far out is this. EV is always my first and only port of call when I've needed to change the LV brightness in non-k optical train, ie k7 <-> bellows <-> jml21

QuoteOriginally posted by MichaelErlewine Quote
I am interested in hearing about another screen, but for the work I want to do, I need to look more deeply into just using the K1.
I can only present my own experience, which is using a SmallHD DP6. This is a small 5 year old field monitor, which connects to DSLR HDMI output. I use it for a variety of things, but one of them is also field stacking - the LCD on the back of DSLRs are a little smaller than I'd like (I now wear glasses since 2y ago) and as I have this SmallHD I might as well use it... so I use it with charged battery, sitting in my flash mount using an eBay 1/4 screw mini hot shoe ball head. The whole combo is surprisingly svelte, you may want to reconsider only using a K1.

I had a play with the SmallHD last night after seeing this thread, and I can dim the screen about 2/3 as much as when I set it to -5EV in-camera. But, do bear in mind this is now 5 year old hardware, there are all sorts of newer and shinier field monitors out there made by Marshall, SmallHD, Lilliput and so on - there's bound to be one with a wide range of brightness - it's something you'll need to speak to an informed dealer about.

Last edited by Nass; 06-08-2016 at 04:33 AM.
06-08-2016, 12:31 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikeSF Quote
i am just not understanding the issue. You are using M mode with various adapted lenses, all with aperture rings. Sometimes a bellows unit. You press the green button to set the shutter speed and are not getting a proper exposure?
You're all too quick to answer. I tried the camera and the OP is right (Adam also checked). If there is not aperture lever connected between the lens and the Pentax camera, stop down metering does not work and in M mode, the Pentax camera keep displaying a fixed exposure value regardless what settings are programmed, which makes it impossible to program the camera for proper exposure, except by trial and error. When bellow is used, there is probably no aperture level connection to the lens and therefore, the Pentax stop down metering approach does not work.
06-08-2016, 01:01 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
You're all too quick to answer. I tried the camera and the OP is right (Adam also checked). If there is not aperture lever connected between the lens and the Pentax camera, stop down metering does not work and in M mode, the Pentax camera keep displaying a fixed exposure value regardless what settings are programmed, which makes it impossible to program the camera for proper exposure, except by trial and error. When bellow is used, there is probably no aperture level connection to the lens and therefore, the Pentax stop down metering approach does not work.
It does not work in Live View only. Please remember this. Stop down metering does works when you are using viewfinder but OP insist using Live View therefore does not work for him. Also as I am on the topic here, DOF button does darken the Live View and shows the exposure in histogram (if enabled in LV mode) to adjust accordingly values. After OP uses that way after some adjusting time it will work for him.

Yes, we are all quick to answer, including you... No hard feelings here, just joking

---------- Post added 06-08-16 at 04:14 PM ----------

My solution for your problem is:

https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/portal/us/home/products/details/cameras/dslr/eos-5ds-r
https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/portal/us/home/products/details/lenses/ef...5x-macro-photo

or any of these: https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/portal/us/home/products/list/lenses/ef/macro/macro

and finally this: Novoflex - Automatic Bellows

This will make his work much easer and sell other stuff.


Last edited by RAART; 06-08-2016 at 01:15 PM.
06-08-2016, 01:38 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
If there is not aperture lever connected between the lens and the Pentax camera, stop down metering does not work and in M mode, the Pentax camera keep displaying a fixed exposure value regardless what settings are programmed, which makes it impossible to program the camera for proper exposure, except by trial and error.
If so, then the K-1 is a significant departure from that of the K-3/K-3II and other Pentax dSLR cameras going back pretty much to the *istD. * On the tripod behind me is a K-3 with bellows mounted and a standard K-mount (K or M series) 50mm lens mounted to the bellows. The behavior is exactly the same as if a manual aperture lens were mounted directly to the camera. To whit:
  • The camera defaults to Av mode for all but M, X, and B modes
  • Real time exposure automation is active for the above-mentioned Av mode. Shutter speed and/or ISO (if set to auto-ISO) will change in response to change in light and/or set aperture.
  • In M mode, pressing the green button will result in change of shutter speed to match the current set aperture
  • Aperture, shutter speed, and ISO are all fully set-able in M mode including setting of aperture and shutter speed per hand-held meter or exposure rule (e.g. sunny 16)
  • All of the above is true for both live view and the optical viewfinder
  • DOF for both viewfinder and live view display reflects the set aperture in real time
  • Exposure compensation is available is available for both Av and M modes regardless of whether live view is used
  • Live view histogram in M mode reflects the current display state rather than the set values. This is typical for the Pentax histogram display and is flawed IMHO. Av mode histogram is more correct.
  • The live view display will dim or brighten in response to changes in exposure compensation for both Av and M modes
  • Exposure information for all displays are consistent with body state and settings and all settings are available for visual confirmation:
    • Aperture: F--- (visible on lens aperture ring)
    • Shutter speed: Set speed
    • ISO: Set ISO
  • All of the above apply to any manual aperture lens mounted regardless of whether a bellows is part of the kit
Which of the above does not work or behaves differently on the K-1?
How is stop-down metering not working on the K-1?
How is it impossible to set exposure except by trial/error?



Steve

* The lens compatibility matrix and user manual aperture notes in the K-1 user guide are essentially the same as with the K-3/K-3II. In most ways, the above behavior is similar to that of the D810 when used with bellows.

Last edited by stevebrot; 06-08-2016 at 02:21 PM.
06-08-2016, 01:57 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Which of the above does not work or behaves differently on the K-1?
None, it's the same, I tried with both cameras :-). The OP is referring to M mode, if I understood correctly. When the lens is manual and disconnect from aperture lever, the camera is of course not able to do stop down meteting and keeps a fixed histogram and display brightness in LV. However, Sv,Tv,Av,TAv modes result in Av mode where the camera adjust the shutter speed automatically without having to press the green button. So, yes it works, but not how MichaelErlewine was trying to use the camerain M mode. If not, then I did not understand what he was trying to do.
06-08-2016, 02:11 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
When the lens is manual and disconnect from aperture lever, the camera is of course not able to do stop down meteting and keeps a fixed histogram and display brightness in LV.
If you have a manual aperture lens (i.e. lens stopped down all the time) I suggest you mount it up and see how it actually behaves. I tried each point in my list in order and just added histogram reactivity. No, the K-1 will not dim the live view display in reaction to change in shutter speed (an apparent undocumented feature of the D810), but using the EC adjust to do the same thing works and does not change the exposure.

All that aside, if the amount of brightness adjustment via that method does not suit the OP a good option might be a field monitor as suggested by Nash Nass.


Steve

Last edited by stevebrot; 06-08-2016 at 02:54 PM.
06-08-2016, 02:45 PM   #42
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I don't ever use continuous light in stacking (sadly I'm next to a road with vibrations) which is why I've not chimed in at all re metering/preview/green button in this thread. But I did get my cameras out and try out a manual lens on a bellows to test stopdown metering. Stevebrot, you've put down exactly my experience. Including the bit about "In M mode, pressing the green button will result in change of shutter speed to match the current set aperture", which I have always thought stop down metering is. (One special little Pentax wrinkle though, on Pentax auto bellows A there's a button you have to press and twist otherwise a Pentax-M lens, even if set stopped down, still remains wide open. Never knew that - because never had a Pentax-M lens mounted on this -A bellows before... By sheer coincidence I'd mounted 50-m macro which has this as an issue, as opposed to something like a Componon which doesn't have this issue and I just and only set whatever f/stop the lens is sharpest at so stack for acuity.)

I've never touched a d810, but my reading of Michael's post is I get the feeling that Nikon has a sort of "realtime liveview" thing going on, ie almost a continuously changing constant preview. So it shows you what a photo would be like at the f/stop, iso and shutter speed settings you have dialed in, and if you change say your 8 second setting to a 1 second setting the liveview display shows a darker image, to reflect what the photo would now look like with 3 stops less light. I maybe wrong - maybe Michael could confirm/deny. I can see the benefit, it'd be nice to have, +-EV is about the nearest thing in the Pentax universe. The only other bodge that might at least speed the process up a little would be to preprogram in a few bunches of bracketing at 1/3EV, make the cam take these and then scroll through the shots magnified. A chore, a bodge, not how Nikon does it, but like many cases in Pentax land it's a case of making the best of the gear so it "almost" does what you want.

Ps Who is Nash
06-08-2016, 02:54 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nass Quote
I get the feeling that Nikon has a sort of "realtime liveview" thing going on, ie almost a continuously changing constant preview
That is my take as well. I was unable to find much on it in the D810 manual and don't have a D810 handy to find out what it is all about. (My brother has one, but he is hard to get a hold of.)

QuoteOriginally posted by Nass Quote
Ps Who is Nash
That other guy...the one my fingers were thinking of...


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06-08-2016, 03:11 PM   #44
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How do you figure the camera cannot stop-down meter in M Mode using K/M lenses (or a standard bellows)? AFAICT my K-10D, K-3 and K-1 (and probably K-01, but that camera uses the less capable Mid-range version of M buried under TAv) - my cameras do just that when I use the Green Button or DoF Preview Lever - in Optical and Green Button LiveView - and takes a test photo using DoF Preview Lever in LVq .

At least I think so.

Last edited by monochrome; 06-08-2016 at 03:25 PM.
06-08-2016, 03:13 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nass Quote
I've never touched a d810, but my reading of Michael's post is I get the feeling that Nikon has a sort of "realtime liveview" thing going on, ie almost a continuously changing constant preview. So it shows you what a photo would be like at the f/stop, iso and shutter speed settings you have dialed in, and if you change say your 8 second setting to a 1 second setting the liveview display shows a darker image, to reflect what the photo would now look like with 3 stops less light. I maybe wrong - maybe Michael could confirm/deny.
QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
That is my take as well. I was unable to find much on it in the D810 manual and don't have a D810 handy to find out what it is all about. (My brother has one, but he is hard to get a hold of.)
Steve
I think you're right. IIRC, my entry level Canon Rebel T3 did the same thing. It tried to show you what you would get when you actually hit the shutter button and take the picture. It's a stab at WYSIWYG (What You See Is What You Get) That is one feature that I missed when I moved to Pentax, but I've survived without it! And now since my K-5IIs is stuck in Manual Mode, I really do a lot of shoot, chimp, delete, repeat.
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