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06-07-2016, 10:16 AM   #1
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The Pentax K1 Pixel-Shift Vs. the Nikon D810

Like so many things in life, there is compromise, and compromise when we least appreciate it. This is the case with the new Pentax K1 36 Mpx camera with the remarkable Pixel-Shift feature. And Iím remarking!

First, it works, which is the good news. The not-so-good news, and for my work it is ďbadĒnews, is that it really is only worthwhile for lenses that are made for the Pentax mount (and talk to the camera) and there are (pardon my opinion) not many lenses in that category that are ďthatĒ good yet, as in ďwell corrected.Ē I am sure they will come, but I donít need to buy more lenses!

I have no Pentax lenses from the manufacturer, but I have had a number of Voigtlander lenses in Pentax mount, some of which talk to the Pentax... successfully. These I can work with and I like what I see.

However, although I have all the right adapters for bellows work, the lenses I really want to work with, like the El Nikkor 105mm APO lens, and other exotic lenses, really donít work, or are, at least for my old aging body and mind, not worth the hassle. So far, I have been unable to find an acceptable (to me) way around this. Perhaps you know one.

These lenses that donít talk with the Pentax K1 are displayed in LiveView with their apertures always wide-open, with no ability to modify the shutter and have it modify the light in LiveView, and the only way to darken the image is to use a higher aperture, which of course I donít want to do. The aperture I want is, well, the aperture (and DOF) I want to use for the photo, etc.

Yes, I can guess at what I might want, try to focus with the very narrow depth-of-field of the lens wide-open, take the photo, see how it turned out, and guess again, until I get the result into the ballpark Iím looking for. But, as mentioned, who wants to do that? Apparently not me. I am amazed that the folks at Pentax would not have thought it through, especially as there are scads of non-Pentax lenses out there that are way better than what they offer and that will easily mount on the Pentax K1.

Am I sending it back? I donít know yet. When I have a lens that talks to the camera, I really like what I see in results and, this is what I feared, but the lenses I have like that are not the best glass. I just ordered the Sigma 35mm ART lens in Pentax mount, which is a pretty good lens from what I hear. I already have a ton of great lenses that would do fine on the Pentax in Pixel-Shift mode, and I donít want to buy a lot more lenses, most of which donít exist yet.

All I can say is: how thoughtless of my needs those Pentax-company folks are. I queried the Pentax forms, and they are very responsive (and Gung Ho!), but the best they have come up with is: I should use the aperture to control light, and forget about the shutter.

Well, the aperture in my work is not how I control light. The shutter does that. They also suggest that I can use the -5EV to +5EV to adjust light, but that is not enough IMO.

Anyway, that is where I am today. Any ideas anyone?

Here is a shot taken with the Pentax with the Voigtlander 90mm APO lens and one taken with the Nikon D810 and the El Nikkor 105mm APO lens.

If you Pentax, who have been so helpful, want to see the images, this link should work. If you can figure out a reasonably "elegant" way to use bellows with the K1, with exotic lenses, please let me know.


The Pentax K1 Pixel-Shift Vs. the Nikon D810 - Gear Zone - Fotozones

06-07-2016, 10:35 AM   #2
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Have you looked up how to use the Green Button? Sounds like it's exactly why it's there but I've never played with any manual lenses yet. Do a search on it or open the manual. Basically set the camera to the correct mode and adjust your apeture, push green button and it reads and sets camera.
06-07-2016, 10:47 AM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by 1wild1 Quote
Have you looked up how to use the Green Button? Sounds like it's exactly why it's there but I've never played with any manual lenses yet. Do a search on it or open the manual. Basically set the camera to the correct mode and adjust your apeture, push green button and it reads and sets camera.
I have pressed that Green Button many times in many way, but never got what I need... yet. Maybe I am doing something wrong. I need to be able to see my current image (with proper light and aperture) and then focus on that... I stack focus, often.
06-07-2016, 10:51 AM - 4 Likes   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by MichaelErlewine Quote
The not-so-good news, and for my work it is “bad”news, is that it really is only worthwhile for lenses that are made for the Pentax mount (and talk to the camera)
Very interesting. I don't think anyone discovered that before. I don't have a K-1 so I can't confirm, but interesting nonetheless.

QuoteQuote:
and there are (pardon my opinion) not many lenses in that category that are “that” good yet, as in “well corrected.”
But this...this is just ridiculous and completely erroneous. I won't waste my time detailing the MANY current FF Pentax lenses that cover from 15-560mm and have the resolution to benefit from SR, but instead point you to the DFA 100mm Macro WR. I would agree if you are talking tilt-shift, but since you listed only macro lenses of the 100mm ish variety, I'm assuming no. But if the DFA 100 (or DFA 50 macro) is "not well-corrected enough," then you should probably give up photography...

Especially how it will cost $379 brand new...

I paid double that several years ago and still think it's worth what I paid for it. That B&H price is a steal for one of the best macro lenses made by anyone.

Period.

QuoteQuote:
I am amazed that the folks at Pentax would not have thought it through
It is not incumbent upon Pentax to ensure their cameras work with anything not made by Pentax.

QuoteQuote:
especially as there are scads of non-Pentax lenses out there that are way better than what they offer
Clearly Pentax sucks. With the K-1 out of stock everywhere, I'll buy yours and allow you to get a camera that will enable the full use of so many better lenses...

-Heie


Last edited by Heie; 06-07-2016 at 11:00 AM.
06-07-2016, 10:59 AM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by Heie Quote
Very interesting. I don't think anyone discovered that before. I don't have a K-1 so I can't confirm, but interesting nonetheless.

But this...this is just ridiculous and completely erroneous. ...instead point you to the DFA 100mm Macro WR. If that's "not well-corrected enough," then you should probably give up photography...

Period.

-Heie
We all have opinions and we also have ideas about what works for us. I have scores of macro lenses, including some of the best that can be found in Nikon F-mount or adapted (Leica, Coastal Optics, industrial Nikkors, Zeiss Otus series, etc.), so I have very clear ideas about how corrected (apochromatic) a lens has to be for what Ineed to do. But not ridiculous and certainly not erroneous. I am sure the DFA 100 is what you find works best for you, but that does not mean I would find the same thing, etc. Make sense?
06-07-2016, 11:03 AM - 1 Like   #6
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In Live View, M Mode, aperture set on lens or camera, single fixed ISO, shutter speed set on camera (assuming you have metered and know your desired shutter speed) - when Digital Preview is enabled in Menu | Camera - 5 | Button Customization | Preview Dial | Digital Preview - pull the DoF Preview Lever encircling the shutter button to the right.

The Monitor will then show composition, exposure and focus (along with other user-selectable info e.g. Histogram).

User Guide p. 55

Last edited by monochrome; 06-07-2016 at 05:15 PM.
06-07-2016, 11:14 AM   #7
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You should probably return the camera. You want it to work automatically with lenses that will not work automatically. So you have the choice of whether to learn how to do that, or get other equipment. It sounds like getting other equipment is the best way for you to proceed.
06-07-2016, 11:16 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
In Live View, M Mode, aperture set on lens or camera, single fixed ISO, shutter speed set on camera (assuming you have metered and know your desired shutter speed) - when Digital Preview is enabled in Menu | Camera - 5 | Preview Dial | Digital Preview - pull the DoF Preview Lever encircling the shutter button to the right.

The Monitor will then show composition, exposure and focus (along with other user-selectable info e.g. Histogram).

User Guide p. 55
What I was pointing out in my post was not lenses that communicated with the K1, but rather lenses that did not communcate. Page 55 and those instructions do NOT work with lenses that are, for example, on a bellows, or not communicating with the camera. Please correct me if I am wrong, but that seems to be the case.

---------- Post added 06-07-16 at 11:20 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Oakland Rob Quote
You should probably return the camera. You want it to work automatically with lenses that will not work automatically. So you have the choice of whether to learn how to do that, or get other equipment. It sounds like getting other equipment is the best way for you to proceed.
Not quite. I would like to be able to work with the camera (not automatically), but reasonably, for lenses that are separate from syncing with the K1. I do this all the time with Nikon cameras, for example. I am trying to find if there is a way to do this with the K1 that is flexible enough to allow more complicated still-life focus-stacking using pixel-shift.


Last edited by MichaelErlewine; 06-07-2016 at 11:23 AM.
06-07-2016, 11:23 AM   #9
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It sounds like you don't have the right camera. Maybe you should get a different one that works for you in the way you want with the lenses you want.

A Nikon D810, for example. There are plenty of people on PF who would love a near-new K-1.
06-07-2016, 11:25 AM   #10
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I think this is the key, taken from this thread. Seems maybe just putting an adapter on the camera to "short" the contacts may be the answer.

Also note that the mount on the lens must be conductive for electrical current so that it shorts the electrical contacts on the camera body. All Pentax manufactured lenses have a conductive mount, but some third party lenses do not in which case the area of the mount touching the contacts must be sanded down.

Read more at: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/54-pentax-lens-articles/110657-how-use-me...#ixzz4Av4Hb9iW

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/54-pentax-lens-articles/110657-how-use-me...k-x-k-7-a.html
06-07-2016, 11:39 AM   #11
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I am a bit confused here and like you to explain more what are you trying to get... Does the Nikkor 105 lens talk to Sony or Canon body that way you wanted?
Up to know I did not had in my hands any bellows that communicate with lens and body. Extension tubes do but that is another story...

I looked up your pictures and there is difference as the Nikon was shot with higher aperture and had a bigger DOF than with Voigtlander/K-1 combo. Than there is that colour shift that I do not get it.

Can you just explain more what it is bothering you...

Thanks.
06-07-2016, 12:03 PM   #12
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I'm intrigued by your problem. I own manual lenses - that do not communicate with the camera - almost exclusively. 50 of them. I have a few modern lenses for convenience, but my particular deviant hobby is using manual film cameras (in K-mount, Pentax KX and MX, and Nikon F2) and a digital camera as if it is a manual film camera.

Please note I specified using M Mode - fully manual, with no camera automation. The solution lies somewhere within full manual operation.

I don't own a bellows, but this evening I will test my suggestion and attempt to offer you a solution using manual lenses. I'm intellectually comfortable believing there is a solution, but it might not be a solution that is satisfactory for you.

Last edited by monochrome; 06-07-2016 at 12:08 PM.
06-07-2016, 12:07 PM   #13
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I will try to make it simple. I have a bellows, unconnected to the camera electronics. On the front standard is a lens... unconnected, but a lens with its own aperture ring. I set that ring so that I am getting the DOF (and thereby the bokeh) I want for the shot.

I turn on LiveView on the K1 and see an image, but it is too bright. I would like to narrow the shutter... adjust the shutter on the camera to darken the image somewhat, and have the image in my LiveView show the darkening. Ultimately I am trying to see what I am shooting (aperture and shutter-light) before taking a photo, as I do with the Nikons. Then I take a shot and the result is in the ballpark of what I saw on LiveView. That is the idea. In reality, I may want to take many shots (focus stacking) to process (later) into a single shot.

I am not being critical of the K1 as a critic, but trying to find a way to use this camera for its remarkable features. Of course I can use a Nikon, but I want to use the pixel-shift feature on the K1. I like the K1, but, like all of us, have to find a way to make it function in a workflow that is easier rather than difficult.
06-07-2016, 12:15 PM   #14
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Given your above response, the Monitor will not automatically give you an accurate view of what the sensor registers. Pentax cameras adjust the gain on the Monitor for viewing ability.

However-there is a way to set the camera up so you can manually preview a manual exposure, which you would do on a bellows. Once accepted, then our issue is making a manual PixelShift or focus stacked exposure.

Again, I suspect the secret lies in removing all automation, which might not suit your workflow desires.

I'll find the solution tonight.
06-07-2016, 12:18 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by MichaelErlewine Quote
I have pressed that Green Button many times in many way, but never got what I need... yet. Maybe I am doing something wrong. I need to be able to see my current image (with proper light and aperture) and then focus on that... I stack focus, often.
Michael...many users on this site have attempted to provide you with assistance with your desired goal:
  • Focus stacking macro
  • Using your V/C Apo-Lanthar 125/2.5 (KA mount)
  • Using live view with DOF visible for set aperture*
  • All of the above with pixel shift
There is nothing on the above list that is outside the capabilities of the K-1, assuming that you have a working aperture mechanism on your Apo-Lanthar and are willing to forgo infinity focus.

Again, it works like this:
  • Short extension tube of the cheap, uncoupled variety. The intent is to force your lens to fully manual aperture
  • Aperture ring off the "A" position
  • Av mode on the K-1 if you need real-time exposure automation. If it were me, I would use M mode and the optical viewfinder in conjunction with the DOF preview lever to set the shutter speed and switch to live view for focus. That provides an EV scale in the viewfinder which I find useful. I would then make a couple of test exposures and adjust as needed and not fiddle with the exposure unless needed...classic manual technique.
  • Special live view considerations? None. Screen brightness will be maintained regardless of aperture and DOF will follow what you set on the aperture ring. If you need the screen to be less bright, I believe that may be adjusted using the control panel or menu system. If you are insistent on having the screen brightness follow the shutter speed setting, then you are **** out of luck. The K-1 will only do that if it knows the set EV and even then only when dialing in exposure compensation.
If this does not work for you, I suggest you take a look through the back of your Apo-Lanthar and confirm that you have a working aperture mechanism.** With lens off camera the iris opening should reflect the aperture set on the lens. If your lens is in working condition, perhaps a return to the D810 would be your best bet.


Steve

* DOF on the rear LCD is generally deeper than the final image viewed at say 8"x10". I would suggest at least 4x magnification and even then, it would be hard to gauge visually with any degree of accuracy.

** Since your first volley of posts, I have suspected an issue with the lens. You have repeated stated that you cannot get the lens to stop down regardless of setting or mode.

Last edited by stevebrot; 06-07-2016 at 12:27 PM.
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