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08-01-2016, 04:43 AM   #31
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The other way of looking at it is that Pentax makes all these nice pancake lenses, but doesn't really make a camera small enough to capitalise on that. In other words, Pentax makes large DSLRs that tend to be a fair bit bigger than their Canon or Nikon equivalents and compromise the compactness of their lenses.

A K-mount mirrorless camera is never going to be tiny because of the characteristics of the mount and because of the extra bulk of the SR mechanism, but it could be made smaller and lighter than the smallest Canon or Nikon DSLRs.

I actually agree that any lens over 400g makes the K-01 front heavy and awkward to hold, but not all Pentax lenses are like that.

08-01-2016, 05:19 AM   #32
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They could make a camera with just van EFV and instant phone connectivity (without stabilisation). that just needs to be a round tube. Problem of course it also needs screw-drive AF.

Last edited by D1N0; 08-01-2016 at 02:49 PM.
08-01-2016, 02:49 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by RobA_Oz Quote
The main advantage of a mirrorless ILC is the potential for reduced weight, compared with an equivalent DSLR. Overall size may be a secondary advantage, but both are offset to some extent by the size and weight of the system lenses.

A follow-on from the K-01 with an in-built EVF, and a more traditional body styling could find a greater success.
Yep, EVF viewfinder. Add on-sensor PDAF/CDAF, no Marc Neuson, perhaps shorter registration distance with included seamless K lens adapter, KAF4 compatible.
Advantage of no DSLR mirror slap means potentially better video capability and better SR than DSLR. I'd grab one quickly...
08-01-2016, 03:23 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sterby Quote
It is funny that all mirrorless advocates are mentioning weight and compact design regardless of when you put a lens on the damn thing it pretty much weighs as much as a DSLR and the size difference becomes negligible. The advantage of the mirrorless design is not having to deal with all the optically empty space of the mirrorbox and the lens can pretty much extend back to the shutter plane for better aberration control and other optical voodoo. It makes lens design even more complicated, lenses are getting bigger and heavier with more glass inside but the end result becomes much more crisp than it was possible with a mirrorbox design. Although with anything below 50 pickles a "cheap" Limited prime is what we Pentax users will ever need. Actually from the price of a new Zeiss I can get most of the DA Limited line.
Also on the compact thing, when I put the 35/2.4 plastic fantastic on the K-3 and go around town nobody minds me or take any second looks. And for those pocket carry duties I have my iPhoney.
And if the local ambassador from Sony were to check in, he would tell you that the primary advantage of MILC is the WYSIWYG view provided by the EVF - in other words, having a view that is virtually identical to what the sensor will record and the processor will deliver to the SD card. As far as pocket duties are concerned, I use my Q-7 most of the time, because I have found too many times when no normal cell phone can capture the picture I'm seeing.

---------- Post added 08-01-16 at 06:29 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
They could make a camera with just van EFV and instant phone connectivity (without stabilisation). that just needs to be a round tube. Problem of course it also needs screw-drive AF.
No, an MILC would not have to support all older lenses ... they could leave that with the DSLR family. Providing support for KAF3/KAF4 makes more sense; Pentaxians would complain, but they aren't happy if they aren't complaining, and this way they wouldn't have to search around for something to complain about.

08-01-2016, 04:18 PM   #35
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Whatever. By the time Pentax gets around to it MILC/EVF will be over.
08-01-2016, 11:02 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sterby Quote
It is funny that all mirrorless advocates are mentioning weight and compact design regardless of when you put a lens on the damn thing it pretty much weighs as much as a DSLR and the size difference becomes negligible. The advantage of the mirrorless design is not having to deal with all the optically empty space of the mirrorbox and the lens can pretty much extend back to the shutter plane for better aberration control and other optical voodoo. It makes lens design even more complicated, lenses are getting bigger and heavier with more glass inside but the end result becomes much more crisp than it was possible with a mirrorbox design. Although with anything below 50 pickles a "cheap" Limited prime is what we Pentax users will ever need. Actually from the price of a new Zeiss I can get most of the DA Limited line.
Also on the compact thing, when I put the 35/2.4 plastic fantastic on the K-3 and go around town nobody minds me or take any second looks. And for those pocket carry duties I have my iPhoney.
Honestly, i don't think there any advantage to mirrorless in term of optical design. Their key difference here is registration distance.

With a K-mount registration distance you can make an FA77 for example. Something very small, light, very high quaity and with somewhat long focal length. This doesn't exist in any mirrorless design for same sensor size. To get the same thing, you need a huge behemoh on mirrorless. This is because 77mm is already quite far from the registration distance of the existing mirrorless designs.

For wide angle, this is the opposite, you can get small/light WA in mirrorless while you also get insanely good WA on a DSLR, but they weight 500g. Samyang has a few that are truely great.

This come down to the more near your focal length is to your registration distance, the easier it is to design a great lens and the smaller/lighter it become. The smallest lenses on K-mount are arround 40-45mm because this is very near to the registration distance...

I don't think having a K-mount mirrorless would be an issue. It might be if you'd limit yourself to APSC only because there quite some need for bellow 30 and even bellow 20mm lenses.

But an FF mirrorless would just need a small 24mm that might be only f/3.2 or something and then after it is quite feasible to make a series of f/1.8 primes that would be small/light at 35, 55 and 85mm.as well and/or a serie of f/2.8 pancakes (28, 40, 70). For zoom, you could have small light short range variable apperture one for a bargain (28-75 f/3.5-5.6, 50-200 f/4-6.3 with collapsible features, plastic in the 200-300g range and also a 28-300 f/3.5-6.3). As long as it is sharp, the FF sensor let you lot of margin, including cropping to increase the range.

For this to really work I think, you need a way to have an FF body for 600, even if it is a basic model with 24MP. We are not that far from it. A7 go just bellow 1000 at times. Do that and you'll take the whole market by a storm.
08-01-2016, 11:58 PM   #37
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The smartest thing to do is a deal with Samsung for the NX1 and 500, plus the lens lineup.
08-02-2016, 12:38 AM   #38
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mirrorless with electronic viewfinder could be great for video as said and would not be so big when using lenses as my Cosina auto MC 24mm which is small and light (MF but this is not an issue as it's close focusing lens). They could indeed design a good compact photo-video body but with another line of smaller batteries.

08-02-2016, 04:28 PM   #39
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It's probably flogging a dead horse to continue talking about this, because the limitations of a mirrorless system as an all-rounder have been well-canvassed. Nonetheless, there's probably a market for a lightweight travel system, and something like the Sigma SD Quattro body (as noted above by others, possibly full 35mm frame), paired to a couple of collapsible, WR zooms of good IQ. For those of us with a plethora of K-mount lenses and a few favourites, it could also be attractive even without the zooms.

Having said that, I'm thinking that, for my next trip, I could probably get away with minimising the photo gear to just the K-1, FA20, FA31 and FA77, but something like the above body would make for a lighter camera bag than the K-1.
08-03-2016, 03:29 AM   #40
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Sigma SD Quattro?
Compare camera dimensions side by side
Oh, yeah, it's somewhat lighter
08-03-2016, 07:03 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Sigma SD Quattro?
Compare camera dimensions side by side
Oh, yeah, it's somewhat lighter
I was talking about the form, but you knew that.
08-03-2016, 07:30 AM   #42
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Which is hideous?
I'd rather have a K-01 with deeper grip and electronic viewfinder. Scratch that, I'd rather have a K-1 - a full fledged DSLR.
08-03-2016, 10:09 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
The other way of looking at it is that Pentax makes all these nice pancake lenses, but doesn't really make a camera small enough to capitalise on that. In other words, Pentax makes large DSLRs that tend to be a fair bit bigger than their Canon or Nikon equivalents and compromise the compactness of their lenses.
I'm not sure what you mean... Pentax DSLR's tend to be quite compact, even compared to Canon and Nikon equivalents. (Unless you're referring to some new mirrorles equivalents I don't know about yet.)

Both the Canon 7D II and 70D as well as the Nikon D7200 are in about the same range as the K-3 / K-3 II but are all larger, especially when you add the most common upgraded 'normal' FOV zoom or prime lenses.
Front: Compact Camera Meter
Side: Compact Camera Meter
Top, 16-50 f/2.8 or 17-55 f/2.8 lens attached: Compact Camera Meter
Top, 35mm f/1.8 or 35mm f/2.0 lens attached: Compact Camera Meter
If you want to go to consumer level and compare the K-S2 with the Rebel T6i and the D5500/D3300, the K-S2 is still one of the smaller ones, and the smallest when you add the Pentax RE and Nikon AF-P 18-50 retractable kit lenses.
Front: Compact Camera Meter
Top, 18-50 / 18-55 kit lenses attached: Compact Camera Meter


---------- Post added 08-03-16 at 01:10 PM ----------

That said, I think Pentax could use a newer mirrorless camera (K-03?) but the K-mount flange distance limits how small they can make it. I think the best way forward would be to introduce a new mount, but with an available adapter to natively use and control K-mount lenses. (Kmini mount?) They would only have to introduce one or two to new compact lenses right away because we would still have access to the full range in K-mount until they can add more to the lineup.

*(I know the Q has an adapter, but the tiny sensor with 5.5x crop makes it less useful at normal ranges, and it doesn't allow automatic aperture control or autofocusing.)
08-03-2016, 01:46 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Which is hideous?
I'd rather have a K-01 with deeper grip and electronic viewfinder. Scratch that, I'd rather have a K-1 - a full fledged DSLR.
Neither is any great beauty, and the SD Quattro has an odd truncated grip, but the comparison should have been with the K-1, not the K70.

Personally, I prefer the Sigma's slimmer body, with the extended boss to achieve the registration distance, to the chunky form of the K-01, if only for the deeper grip it affords. Aesthetically, they both need beer goggles, but that's OK, especially with IBIS.
08-03-2016, 02:13 PM   #45
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The K-1 is the largest K-mount DSLR and it has a FF sensor/prism/shutter - while the SD Quattro is an APS-C camera (though the Quattro H is APS-H). Comparing the two, the Sigma appears unnecessarily large and unwieldy.
Thanks but no, thanks - I'd rather have a camera designed by Pentax.
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