[biz-engineer]

Each to its estimation. I can sell my K3 for maybe 500€ today. It will be worth at least 250€ in 3-4 years. Total loss: 250€. K1 worth 2000€ new today, not available used. In 3-4 years I am sure I'll be able to get one for €1000 maybe less. Waiting is 750€ saved.

In 3 to 4 years, your K3 will be worth 50 euros and the K1 new will still be at 1500 euros. And during 3 to 4 years you won't enjoy full frame.

Car is not good, because, not only it depreciate, but on top of that, you have associated cost of ownership such as insurance, tyres, oil, and petrol. On the other hand, once you buy a camera it cost nothing to operate. A new average car actual cost is about 500 euros per month, that means, 4 months without car pays off a K1. I have no car, my company pays for it. And I can make $10K in one day by selling stocks. To be honest, I did not really care much about buying a K1, I got paid one day $25K in stocks without any effort (I can't even imagine some of executives get dozen of millions in stocks, so for them buying a 645Z is just a formality), I could even get a 645Z, but there is no lens long enough for wildlife that comes along with the 645Z.

---------- Post added 09-08-16 at 21:54 ----------

Who know and who care? I'll quite certainly have significantly better salary

In France you can't have a high net salary, because if your employer increase your salary , the French government also takes a larger part of it... so in the end, the only way to become rich is to leave France (what I did in the last 15 years), and it pays off. When I was in France, I paid 300K Eruos in the social system and I will never see that money again... and that compare to the price of a camera is huge, for this money you can even buy a house. In France, every month, the government takes away from you at least one Pentax K1 (every month!!) and give it to its own government employees and other people who do nothing (unemployment). As an IT engineer, you go work 6 months in Luxemburg or Zurich, and you can buy ten K1 or three 645Z , for doing the same work as if you were doing in France. The French government = bankruptcy.

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Last edited by biz-engineer; 08-09-2016 at 01:00 PM.

[Nicolas06]

And I can make $10K in one day by selling stocks. To be honest, I did not really care much about buying a K1, I got paid one day $25K in stocks without any effort (I can't even imagine some of executives get dozen of millions in stocks, so for them buying a 645Z is just a formality), I could even get a 645Z, but there is no lens long enough for wildlife that comes along with the 645Z.

In France, every month, the government takes away from you at least one Pentax K1 (every month!!) and give it to its own government employees and other people who do nothing (unemployment). As an IT engineer, you go work 6 months in Luxemburg or Zurich, and you can buy ten K1 or three 645Z , for doing the same work as if you were doing in France. The French government = bankruptcy.

Collector man...

Once you are a trader and once you expatriated yourself... You can buy an FF body!

But you know not everybody willing to expatriate himself or spend a life on a job they don't like so just they could afford a K1 3-4 years earlier.

In 3 to 4 years, your K3 will be worth 50 euros and the K1 new will still be at 1500 euros. And during 3 to 4 years you won't enjoy full frame.

You are better at selling stocks than to estimate gear price evolution...

[Rondec]

Let's just say clearly that one of the biggest reasons to get a K-1 is because you want it. A lot of the other reasons that follow are rationalizations.

If you are a professional, that is different, but most of us here are not professionals and at most do a portrait session or two on the side. It is reasonable to spend money on something you want, but it is certainly not necessary.

[Tatouzou]

Collector man...

Once you are a trader and once you expatriated yourself... You can buy an FF body!

But you know not everybody willing to expatriate himself or spend a life on a job they don't like so just they could afford a K1 3-4 years earlier.


You are better at selling stocks than to estimate gear price evolution...

The reasons why people choose to live in France or elsewhere is out of the topic of this thread. Money is not God and, as long as one is happy where he lives and in his job, why would he leave his native country?

Photography is a hobby for Nicolas, so it is for me. Cameras are tools to satisfy this hobby. Save for pros, a FF camera (whatever the brand) is for people who care more about image quality than about size, weight and cost.
As for me and Nicolas, we feel that K3 fills our actual expectations, and we both have now a nice bunch of lenses suited to our tastes.

I dont like to sell old gear (dont need too), I sold my Ist-DS because I decided to keep my K30 as second camera. It is a nice camera, IQ and ergonomy are very close to K3's, the main difference I feel is K3 AF and dust removal are better, but K30 is lighter for hiking or sightseeing tours.
I am not interested in K1, I am rather wondering which smaller camera I will choose to replace my Fuji compact X-S1 and X10 if one of them fails. Thinking about M4/3 or Sony RX10 to replace the X-S1, and Canon G5 to replace the X10. But I may keep the Fujis as long as they dont break.

We both are going to Tanzania next september, together with my daughter (Nicolas' sister)who will use my K30 and old stuff I have (DA 50-200 or FA100-300, it will be up to her, against a matter of size vs reach) to complement the telephoto reach of the pocketable compact Panasonic LF1 she enjoys to use most of the time.

We all think this kind of trip is a more enjoyable experience than buying a new camera, and IMO, 8x30 binoculars + K3 + DA 55-300 + DA 18-135 + DA15 for landscapes is already enough gear to carry all day long. Might add a small telephoto prime, either my DA40XS or FA 50 f1.7 or DA70, not yet sure which I will choose, might be the tiny DA40 XS if i can improve its PDAF tuning near infinite (it focuses OK in LV CDAF, but shows weaks corners in OVF PDAF. I hope it is not a decentering issue, rather an AF shift, otherwise I will have to send it for servicing).

[biz-engineer]

You are better at selling stocks than to estimate gear price evolution...

I've already used the K1 for 3 months and the price is still the same. So, if I had waited three month and buy the same K1 now, I'd have saved 0.00 euros. In one year, if the K1 is priced 1800 euros in Europe, and I wait one year, I'd save 200 euros, but my K3 would drop 150 euros, so, I'm loose 50 euros and have one year of Pentax K1 use (for the cost of 50 euros). In one year from now, I could resell my K1 1500 euros, it would cost me 500 euros for 18 months, it's the cost of a monthly newspaper or something like that. There is nothing to save to become rich with that. Saving money on a K1 isn't going to boost a bank acount, there are some many other expenses that accumulated over three year are so much bigger than the price of a K1.

---------- Post added 10-08-16 at 14:15 ----------

For example, smoking one pack of cigarettes per day cost you as much as buying one Pentax K1 per year, but the Pentax K1 is much more healthy. I classify Pentax K1 in the range is consumables, in comparison, real estate and transportation costs are an order of magnitude higher. So, basically, saving on Pentax K1 isn't going to change much of your wealth (if you are into buying real estate or so), a K1 saving will represent the price of a entrance carpet of your new apartment. Focusing on saving money on a K1 is the wrong target.

In other words, you could well give your K3 as a present to your father and buy yourself a K1 for your next birthday anniversary (since you already have the FA limited) :-)

[Tatouzou]

If you had read my previous post, you would have guessed that I am Nicolas's father. i already have a K3, dont need a second one.

And, by the way, we are both happy living in the south of France and enjoy our k3s.
And we both dont smoke!

Even if you do enjoy it, FF is not the Holy Grail, it just suits better your expectations!

So, please, go ahead and switch to another topic.

[Tatouzou]

If you had read my previous post, you would have guessed that I am Nicolas's father. i already have a K3, dont need a second one.

And, by the way, we are both happy living in the south of France and enjoy our k3s.
And we both dont smoke!

Even if you do enjoy it, FF is not the Holy Grail, it just suits better your expectations!

So, please, go ahead and switch to another topic.

[Nicolas06]

I've already used the K1 for 3 months and the price is still the same. So, if I had waited three month and buy the same K1 now, I'd have saved 0.00 euros. In one year, if the K1 is priced 1800 euros in Europe, and I wait one year, I'd save 200 euros, but my K3 would drop 150 euros,

Nope until your resell the K1 (but then you don't have anything anymore, no K3, no K1...) you just spent 1500€ more . I mean, If your actually sold your K3, this may not be iactually the case today.

You hypothesis is that everybody will buy a K1 (and not something else that may become available by then), for at least 1500€. That many hypothesis here.

In fact, I could add that in my sig with your authorization. That would be fun ! :

"If even people like biz-engineer that can make $10K in a single day waited many years to get their own full frame body, you likely don't need one yourself that urgently."

[Rondec]

I think this thread will be closing any time now...

[monochrome]

Let's just say clearly that one of the biggest reasons to get a K-1 is because you want it. A lot of the other reasons that follow are rationalizations.

If you are a professional, that is different, but most of us here are not professionals and at most do a portrait session or two on the side. It is reasonable to spend money on something you want, but it is certainly not necessary.

As you posted upthread, it is a fun hobby. K-1 completes the lenses I have, obsoletes all the DA lenses I had except the SMC 15/4 and simply feels right. It's more fun than anything else I have. I've mostly used 5 lenses since May 6th and I'm selling things that don't get used.

People can discuss merits all the day long, but you can't rishii more fun.

[biz-engineer]

Nope until your resell the K1 (but then you don't have anything anymore, no K3, no K1...) you just spent 1500€ more . I mean, If your actually sold your K3, this may not be iactually the case today.

Lets take a practical example: You purchased a FA77 , and a few years later you purchased a FA31. What if you had purchased the FA77 and FA31 together 4 years ago at 10% discounted price because of buying them as bundle? Tell if you saved money by buying the FA31 later. Not only you did not get any discount, but on top of that you still have spent the total money for both lenses (and you actually spent more because the price of FA31 increased by 600 euros in the last 3 years). CQFD.

[Nicolas06]

Lets take a practical example: You purchased a FA77 , and a few years later you purchased a FA31. What if you had purchased the FA77 and FA31 together 4 years ago at 10% discounted price because of buying them as bundle? Tell if you saved money by buying the FA31 later. Not only you did not get any discount, but on top of that you still have spent the total money for both lenses (and you actually spent more because the price of FA31 increased by 600 euros in the last 3 years). CQFD.

- I don't think I could have found that easily an used FA31 for 100€ 3 years ago, so I think the 600€ increase in price is somewhat exagerated. I don't think I would have paid less in a bundle.
- most people get a regular small income rather than everything in one shot the first year they work. For them buying something today is not buying something else. If you can postpone something, that make things much easier. To get that money before has a cost. This is called a mortage, you pay interrest for it, meaning that in exchange of getting things sooner, overall you'll get less things because you pay more for it.
- Things like electronics loose their value overtime. For example you can now buy a used Canon 5D for 200€. It was more than 3000€ 10 years ago. The K1 will go the same route. In 3-4 years a used one will be 1000€ and a better product will replace it, maybe even with a lower introduction price. In 10 year it will be worth near 200€ and look anciant compared to what will be available then. There a good chance that even camera with smaller sensors would outperform it on all aspects related to image quality (but not shallow dof).

[Barry Pearson]

Let's just say clearly that one of the biggest reasons to get a K-1 is because you want it. A lot of the other reasons that follow are rationalizations.

If you are a professional, that is different, but most of us here are not professionals and at most do a portrait session or two on the side. It is reasonable to spend money on something you want, but it is certainly not necessary.

Chuckle! How true.

I'm not a professional photographer. I can't claim even to need any photographic equipment!

Also, now I'm a pensioner with all debts paid off and no dependants, my purchasing decisions are based on a completely different algorithm. I have lots of hours available in a week, but not as many years left as I once did. I see no merit in wasting a year without something in the hope that the price falls so that I end up with more unspent money when I can't do photography any more!

My algorithm is if I want it and I'm willing to pay for it then I buy it.

[biz-engineer]

- Things like electronics loose their value overtime. For example you can now buy a used Canon 5D for 200€. It was more than 3000€ 10 years ago.

That's exactly my point. And you understood how I considered the transition from K3 to K1, I sold all of my apsc gear as soon as possible to finance the K1 and lenses. Buying the K1 now and selling the apsc before it depreciate further is the best thing I have done. I also considered the Canon or Nikon FF camera. As you write the 5D and D700 (12 Mpixels) can be had for less than 1k. But I wanted at least 22Mp (like the K3) but the price of 5DIII or D800E second hand were as expensive as a K1 new (with warranted). The problem for full frame flagship is that to see it priced around 1K it must me completely obsolete. That's no true of the 6D and D610 much more affordable but no quite up to the K1.

---------- Post added 11-08-16 at 12:59 ----------

I think among most threads including this one , people are asking themselves the wrong questions.

[normhead]

I think among most threads including this one , people are asking themselves the wrong questions.

Exactly, the question they should ask is "do I want it?"
Getting an new camera, any new camera is an experience just on it's own. I have friends who have blown the price of a K-1 at the track in a single afternoon. But, they have the money and they seem to enjoy it. The K-1 is not worth it so much that you should go into debt for it, or miss a mortgage playment, but a K-1 is a piece of equipment capable of providing hours of enjoyment. Qualifying the difference between the a K-1 in terms of an up grade from a K-3 , the first question is, "Are you tired of your K-3?" Are you learner. Are you ready to take on a new piece of gear, pick up a new skill set, learn how to get the most out of a new system.

This is not a pro versus amateur debate. This is a do you enjoy learning about cameras, probably not as much as you enjoy taking pictures, but does learning new equipment ad to our enjoyment. Brand upgrades are always tempting between APS-c and FF because they use many of the same lenses. Maybe this year I won't buy a new lens, maybe a new camera body. Either would give me the sense that I'm growing and learning new things.