Why is Pentax dropping wireless flash mode?

**clackers** · 01-19-2017, 03:51 AM

Originally posted by BATMON

Could off camera flash be implemented in the future with a firmware update or is it a mechanical in camera upgrade?

?

You physically need a light to hit the red plastic on the off-camera flash.

robert52 · 01-19-2017, 04:32 AM

I would have to ask cameras other than flagship models say K3ii ( apsc) & K1 (FF) , like K70 & KS2 etc how many people buy these cameras & 1 never use such thing as off the camera flash? or 2 even own a flash other than 1 built into camera.
I talked to a lot of salesman in cameras over the years & noticed unless most people buy top of the line or near the top ( like K1 & K3ii) only every buy say body standard lens & bag ( if not thrown in) maybe a tel zoom lens & last a crappy tripod( again if not thrown in for free)

BrianR · 01-19-2017, 07:48 AM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by robert52

I would have to ask cameras other than flagship models say K3ii ( apsc) & K1 (FF) , like K70 & KS2 etc how many people buy these cameras & 1 never use such thing as off the camera flash? or 2 even own a flash other than 1 built into camera.
I talked to a lot of salesman in cameras over the years & noticed unless most people buy top of the line or near the top ( like K1 & K3ii) only every buy say body standard lens & bag ( if not thrown in) maybe a tel zoom lens & last a crappy tripod( again if not thrown in for free)

k100d was my first camera and I had at least 3 external flashes I used regularly with it. They were all older, non-pentax, flashes. I looked long and hard at the pentax flash options, 360/540, and if my k100d was capable of wireless p-ttl with its on board flash, I'm fairly certain at least one of my early flashes would have been a pentax one. Look at how many different brands of flash triggers or off camera flashes are available these days, I don't believe the off camera flash market is a small one.

I think removing this potential gateway into off-camera flash fun was unfortunate, doubly-so since Pentax doesn't have a small unit that can be used as an on-camera commander.

MrB1 · 01-19-2017, 07:59 AM

Originally posted by clackers

You physically need a light to hit the red plastic on the off-camera flash.

That's right and just to clarify - it doesn't need to be direct light from the camera's flash; the slave should trigger by the flash light that is reflected e.g. from the subject or from surrounding walls, etc.

Philip

BATMON · 01-19-2017, 08:41 AM

So a Pentax AF360FGZ II Flash should be able to work off camera w/ the K-70 despite it not supporting off camera flash???

**UncleVanya** · 01-19-2017, 10:42 AM

Originally posted by BATMON

So a Pentax AF360FGZ II Flash should be able to work off camera w/ the K-70 despite it not supporting off camera flash???

Correct. The 360 (series 1 or II) and the 540 (series 1 or 2) will work. Additionally there are 3rd party P-TTL flashes that could do this. The onboard flash is the only thing that will not work on those cameras.

I think the point you were asking about in the firmware question was if the onboard flash of the K-S1/S2/70 could be upgraded to P-TTL master/controller with a future firmware upgrade or if this requires some hardware component installed in the camera that is missing. My answer would be - we don't know.

BATMON · 01-19-2017, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by UncleVanya

Correct. The 360 (series 1 or II) and the 540 (series 1 or 2) will work. Additionally there are 3rd party P-TTL flashes that could do this. The onboard flash is the only thing that will not work on those cameras.

I think the point you were asking about in the firmware question was if the onboard flash of the K-S1/S2/70 could be upgraded to P-TTL master/controller with a future firmware upgrade or if this requires some hardware component installed in the camera that is missing. My answer would be - we don't know.

I really dont want to purchase a transmitter + receiver, if I could already do wireless off-camera flash w/ the K-50.

Or i might just have to invest in one anyways if i step up to a Digibee.

stevebrot · 01-19-2017, 12:00 PM

Originally posted by BATMON

So a Pentax AF360FGZ II Flash should be able to work off camera w/ the K-70 despite it not supporting off camera flash???

Originally posted by UncleVanya

Correct. The 360 (series 1 or II) and the 540 (series 1 or 2) will work. Additionally there are 3rd party P-TTL flashes that could do this. The onboard flash is the only thing that will not work on those cameras.

For clarification, the K-70 built-in flash is not able to function as P-TTL Master or Controller to allow wireless P-TTL. If one does not need P-TTL, the AF360FGZ(I/II) and other compatible flashes may be used as full-manual wireless slave to the built-in flash (also in manual mode). In all cases, the Master/Controller support is a function of the flash, not the body. If one wishes to use wireless P-TTL with the K-70, the on-camera flash must support the Master/Controller feature.

Steve

BATMON · 01-19-2017, 12:17 PM

A Wireless camera w/out Wireless Flash Mode............

**clackers** · 01-19-2017, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by BATMON

A Wireless camera w/out Wireless Flash Mode............

The camera has WiFi capability. The flashes don't.

deus ursus · 01-19-2017, 02:58 PM

As I've said before: I anticipate the release of a flash with built-in WiFi that can be controlled from a camera with WiFi capabilities. The current camera bodies that have WiFi will get a firmware upgrade and will then be able to control this new flash.

You read it here first.

MrB1 · 01-19-2017, 05:35 PM - **1 Like**

Taking all these replies together, it would be very easy to be even more confused. However, fortunately there are a few replies that, together with my limited practical experiments, lead me to the following conclusions expressed in simple terms:

1. The built-in flash of the K-70 most certainly CAN wirelessly trigger any off-camera flash unit that is capable of acting as a slave.

2. The built-in flash of the K-70 CANNOT wirelessly control the light-output of any off-camera flash, so the latter must be suitably adjusted by the photographer pressing the flash-power buttons on the off-camera flash unit.

Philip

mcgregni · 01-19-2017, 07:55 PM

Yes, thats fundamentally right Philip ..... the real issue here is the distinction between 'P-TTL Wireless' operations and 'Optical Slave' modes (which I usually refer to as 'Dumb Optical Modes', because these 'S1 / S2' modes simply trigger the flash when they detect a strong enough light signal ... they can be triggered mistakenly by other random light sources also).

'P-TTL Wireless' operation uses a special system of coded light signals from the on-camera flash to the off-camera slave, and these signals do a number of special things that are generally unique to P-TTL Wireless modes ... eg allow metering from the slaves flash/s and relaying of the flash exposure required and power outputs from the slaves, allow off-camera High Speed Sync / 2nd Curtain Sync, allow flash compensation to be controlled from the camera / on-camera flash. There is also a system of Channels (4 in total) in order to allow multiple Pentax users to operate alongside each other with different flashes ..... the on-camera and off camera flashes are all set to the same Channels in order to communicate with each other. It is all of this that the K70 does not offer.

An important advantage of P-TTL wireless operation is the ability to set 'Control' mode for the on-camera flash .... this eliminates the actual light output from that flash for lighting purposes, only allowing the coded signals to be emitted .... therefore there is no light from the camera spilling over into the scene. However, if this is actually wanted then we have the option of switching to 'Master' mode, and we can control the balance of light output between the on and off camera flashes.

The problem with 'dumb optical slave' triggering from the built-in flash of the K70 is that the light output from the built-in flash cannot be removed as there is no 'Control / Master' option (because this is part of 'P-TTL Wireless' functions). And direct lighting from an on-camera flash is often not desirable. However, you solve this problem by having an accessory P-TTL flash (eg AF-360/540FGZII) on the camera hotshoe, which does offer full 'P-TTL Wireless' Functioning.

I agree with UncleVanya above that we don't know whether latent 'P-TTL Wireless' ability is there in the flashes on the K70 .... we don't know technically if the functionality is essentially a firmware aspect, or whether there is a physical difference in the flash heads. As the choice to remove that aspect of flash operations is presumably a marketing / target user / cost decision, then it seems to me highly unlikely that it would ever be a situation reversed by firmware updates in future.

**UncleVanya** · 01-19-2017, 08:15 PM

I will also add that the Control PTTL mode where the flash isn't supposed to add light to the scene is not actually a zero additional light mode. There is some light contribution to the scene by the onboard flash in this mode. The amount of light is very small however.

MrB1 · 01-20-2017, 02:03 AM - **1 Like**

Hello, Nigel. As you know, I'm not into flash photography, and I was getting confused by some of the (what seemed to me) apparently conflicting posts here about the flash capability of the K-70. Therefore I just wanted to make sure that the basics were clarified, both in my head, and for others similarly lacking experience of flash. You have done that well - thank you for your clear and simple yet informative description.

Philip

01-19-2017, 07:55 PM	#43
mcgregni Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Surrey, England Posts: 2,603	Yes, thats fundamentally right Philip ..... the real issue here is the distinction between 'P-TTL Wireless' operations and 'Optical Slave' modes (which I usually refer to as 'Dumb Optical Modes', because these 'S1 / S2' modes simply trigger the flash when they detect a strong enough light signal ... they can be triggered mistakenly by other random light sources also). 'P-TTL Wireless' operation uses a special system of coded light signals from the on-camera flash to the off-camera slave, and these signals do a number of special things that are generally unique to P-TTL Wireless modes ... eg allow metering from the slaves flash/s and relaying of the flash exposure required and power outputs from the slaves, allow off-camera High Speed Sync / 2nd Curtain Sync, allow flash compensation to be controlled from the camera / on-camera flash. There is also a system of Channels (4 in total) in order to allow multiple Pentax users to operate alongside each other with different flashes ..... the on-camera and off camera flashes are all set to the same Channels in order to communicate with each other. It is all of this that the K70 does not offer. An important advantage of P-TTL wireless operation is the ability to set 'Control' mode for the on-camera flash .... this eliminates the actual light output from that flash for lighting purposes, only allowing the coded signals to be emitted .... therefore there is no light from the camera spilling over into the scene. However, if this is actually wanted then we have the option of switching to 'Master' mode, and we can control the balance of light output between the on and off camera flashes. The problem with 'dumb optical slave' triggering from the built-in flash of the K70 is that the light output from the built-in flash cannot be removed as there is no 'Control / Master' option (because this is part of 'P-TTL Wireless' functions). And direct lighting from an on-camera flash is often not desirable. However, you solve this problem by having an accessory P-TTL flash (eg AF-360/540FGZII) on the camera hotshoe, which does offer full 'P-TTL Wireless' Functioning. I agree with UncleVanya above that we don't know whether latent 'P-TTL Wireless' ability is there in the flashes on the K70 .... we don't know technically if the functionality is essentially a firmware aspect, or whether there is a physical difference in the flash heads. As the choice to remove that aspect of flash operations is presumably a marketing / target user / cost decision, then it seems to me highly unlikely that it would ever be a situation reversed by firmware updates in future. Last edited by mcgregni; 01-19-2017 at 08:01 PM.

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01-19-2017, 03:51 AM	#31
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by BATMON Could off camera flash be implemented in the future with a firmware update or is it a mechanical in camera upgrade? ? You physically need a light to hit the red plastic on the off-camera flash.

01-19-2017, 04:32 AM	#32
robert52 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: At the pimple of bum of life Posts: 264	I would have to ask cameras other than flagship models say K3ii ( apsc) & K1 (FF) , like K70 & KS2 etc how many people buy these cameras & 1 never use such thing as off the camera flash? or 2 even own a flash other than 1 built into camera. I talked to a lot of salesman in cameras over the years & noticed unless most people buy top of the line or near the top ( like K1 & K3ii) only every buy say body standard lens & bag ( if not thrown in) maybe a tel zoom lens & last a crappy tripod( again if not thrown in for free)

01-19-2017, 07:48 AM - 2 Likes	#33
BrianR Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Ontario Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,332	Originally posted by robert52 I would have to ask cameras other than flagship models say K3ii ( apsc) & K1 (FF) , like K70 & KS2 etc how many people buy these cameras & 1 never use such thing as off the camera flash? or 2 even own a flash other than 1 built into camera. I talked to a lot of salesman in cameras over the years & noticed unless most people buy top of the line or near the top ( like K1 & K3ii) only every buy say body standard lens & bag ( if not thrown in) maybe a tel zoom lens & last a crappy tripod( again if not thrown in for free) k100d was my first camera and I had at least 3 external flashes I used regularly with it. They were all older, non-pentax, flashes. I looked long and hard at the pentax flash options, 360/540, and if my k100d was capable of wireless p-ttl with its on board flash, I'm fairly certain at least one of my early flashes would have been a pentax one. Look at how many different brands of flash triggers or off camera flashes are available these days, I don't believe the off camera flash market is a small one. I think removing this potential gateway into off-camera flash fun was unfortunate, doubly-so since Pentax doesn't have a small unit that can be used as an on-camera commander.

01-19-2017, 07:59 AM	#34
MrB1 Pentaxian Join Date: May 2013 Location: Hertfordshire, England Posts: 845	Originally posted by clackers You physically need a light to hit the red plastic on the off-camera flash. That's right and just to clarify - it doesn't need to be direct light from the camera's flash; the slave should trigger by the flash light that is reflected e.g. from the subject or from surrounding walls, etc. Philip

01-19-2017, 08:41 AM	#35
BATMON Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 207	So a Pentax AF360FGZ II Flash should be able to work off camera w/ the K-70 despite it not supporting off camera flash???

01-19-2017, 10:42 AM	#36
UncleVanya Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2014 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 28,381	Originally posted by BATMON So a Pentax AF360FGZ II Flash should be able to work off camera w/ the K-70 despite it not supporting off camera flash??? Correct. The 360 (series 1 or II) and the 540 (series 1 or 2) will work. Additionally there are 3rd party P-TTL flashes that could do this. The onboard flash is the only thing that will not work on those cameras. I think the point you were asking about in the firmware question was if the onboard flash of the K-S1/S2/70 could be upgraded to P-TTL master/controller with a future firmware upgrade or if this requires some hardware component installed in the camera that is missing. My answer would be - we don't know.

01-19-2017, 11:49 AM	#37
BATMON Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 207	Originally posted by UncleVanya Correct. The 360 (series 1 or II) and the 540 (series 1 or 2) will work. Additionally there are 3rd party P-TTL flashes that could do this. The onboard flash is the only thing that will not work on those cameras. I think the point you were asking about in the firmware question was if the onboard flash of the K-S1/S2/70 could be upgraded to P-TTL master/controller with a future firmware upgrade or if this requires some hardware component installed in the camera that is missing. My answer would be - we don't know. I really dont want to purchase a transmitter + receiver, if I could already do wireless off-camera flash w/ the K-50. Or i might just have to invest in one anyways if i step up to a Digibee.

01-19-2017, 12:00 PM	#38
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by BATMON So a Pentax AF360FGZ II Flash should be able to work off camera w/ the K-70 despite it not supporting off camera flash??? Originally posted by UncleVanya Correct. The 360 (series 1 or II) and the 540 (series 1 or 2) will work. Additionally there are 3rd party P-TTL flashes that could do this. The onboard flash is the only thing that will not work on those cameras. For clarification, the K-70 built-in flash is not able to function as P-TTL Master or Controller to allow wireless P-TTL. If one does not need P-TTL, the AF360FGZ(I/II) and other compatible flashes may be used as full-manual wireless slave to the built-in flash (also in manual mode). In all cases, the Master/Controller support is a function of the flash, not the body. If one wishes to use wireless P-TTL with the K-70, the on-camera flash must support the Master/Controller feature. Steve

01-19-2017, 12:17 PM	#39
BATMON Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 207	A Wireless camera w/out Wireless Flash Mode............

01-19-2017, 01:04 PM	#40
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by BATMON A Wireless camera w/out Wireless Flash Mode............ The camera has WiFi capability. The flashes don't.

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01-19-2017, 02:58 PM	#41
deus ursus Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Stårheim, Norway Posts: 658	As I've said before: I anticipate the release of a flash with built-in WiFi that can be controlled from a camera with WiFi capabilities. The current camera bodies that have WiFi will get a firmware upgrade and will then be able to control this new flash. You read it here first.

01-19-2017, 05:35 PM - 1 Like	#42
MrB1 Pentaxian Join Date: May 2013 Location: Hertfordshire, England Posts: 845	Taking all these replies together, it would be very easy to be even more confused. However, fortunately there are a few replies that, together with my limited practical experiments, lead me to the following conclusions expressed in simple terms: 1. The built-in flash of the K-70 most certainly CAN wirelessly trigger any off-camera flash unit that is capable of acting as a slave. 2. The built-in flash of the K-70 CANNOT wirelessly control the light-output of any off-camera flash, so the latter must be suitably adjusted by the photographer pressing the flash-power buttons on the off-camera flash unit. Philip

01-19-2017, 08:15 PM	#44
UncleVanya Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2014 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 28,381	I will also add that the Control PTTL mode where the flash isn't supposed to add light to the scene is not actually a zero additional light mode. There is some light contribution to the scene by the onboard flash in this mode. The amount of light is very small however.

01-20-2017, 02:03 AM - 1 Like	#45
MrB1 Pentaxian Join Date: May 2013 Location: Hertfordshire, England Posts: 845	Hello, Nigel. As you know, I'm not into flash photography, and I was getting confused by some of the (what seemed to me) apparently conflicting posts here about the flash capability of the K-70. Therefore I just wanted to make sure that the basics were clarified, both in my head, and for others similarly lacking experience of flash. You have done that well - thank you for your clear and simple yet informative description. Philip