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07-28-2016, 02:58 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by severalsnakes Quote
I wouldn't compare manual camera operation (manual focus and manual adjustment of ISO/shutter speed/aperture) to learning information theory. I'd say it's more like learning to drive a manual transmission before you drive an automatic.
And the best pilot use semi-automatic... still almost nobody learn or try manual transmission in US while almost all do it in europe. Should we conclude US driver are worse?

07-28-2016, 03:01 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Once somebody update, 18-50 is likely to be never used again. 18-135 stay a great walkaround and will keep its value over time.
I definitely agree. I have the 18-135, DA 35 f/2.4, DA 50 f/1.8, Tamron 17-50 f/2.8, and DA 50-200 WR (plus others). I still use the 18-135 when I don't want to bring extra lenses with me because it's such a great all around lens, not to mention how useful it is when it's raining. The optics are pretty good, and the extra 50-135 range is VERY useful. If I had an 18-50 I would probably be looking for a deal on the 18-135 to replace it! (Even if you have the 18-50 & 50-200, you wouldn't want to be switching lenses in the pouring rain.)

The biggest thing to consider is the size though. You mentioned it was a 'she' who is considering a D3300, which is a very small camera. The K-50 is just a bit larger (link), and the 18-135 is a bigger lens to carry around than the 18-50 RE (especially with the 18-50 REtracted). I think the 18-135 is enough of a step up to choose the K-50 deal, but she could end up leaving it home more if it's too large for her to carry around. If she wants to stick it in her purse, the K-S2 / 18-50 combo might be a better option. (The best camera is whichever one you have with you!)

As far as K-50 vs K-S2, they're both pretty good cameras and either should do fine. I know the 20MP of the K-S2 would be more impressive on pixel peeping, but that resolution comes with the price of larger files. For someone just getting into DSLR's, the 16MP of the K-50 may actually be a better introduction since she won't need as much hard drive space or computer processing power if she starts post processing. The 16 MP sensor in the K-50 isn't a slouch either! The WiFi isn't really necessary, but the flippy screen could be a consideration depending on how she likes to frame her photos.

---------- Post added 07-28-16 at 06:04 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by pres589 Quote
I'd get the K-S2 to avoid the odd mechanical issues that seem more common with the K-50, as well as the updated sensor and AF that the K-S2 offers. 18-50WR seems okay and is nice and small; not a bad lens to keep in the bag in case foul weather comes up. But not something I'd want to use all the time.
A few more good points to consider.

Ignore the talk of manual focusing for now though...
... She can cross that bridge when she finds out how cheap manual K-mount lenses are on eBay!
07-28-2016, 03:07 PM   #18
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My daughter has a k-s1 with kit lens. The dial never leaves Auto. Ask her about iso, aperture, shutter speed and she wouldn't know what you were talking about. But her pics are fantastic and she loves using the camera. There is a place for manual operation. But where?
07-28-2016, 04:10 PM   #19
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I'd do the K-50 and 18-135.
Or a K-7 and Sigma 17-50/2.8

07-28-2016, 04:14 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
But maybe for a beginner MF lenses is a bit too much?
I have nothing against autofocus lenses. I have them and using them alongside with my manual ones.

There are 2 paths getting new lenses for Pentax.

Path 1: NEW FF Full Frame..more expensive, less choice.
USED FF lots of older lenses manual and autofocus, usually cheaper.

Path 2: NEW or USED "DA" lenses, can only be used on APS-C (crop) cameras,,,except DA *300mm f/4.0 which is FF supported. I think there is one more
"DA" lens that can be used in FF mode, but I don't remember which one. The rest can be used full frame camera like K-1 except in "cropped mode" which
is 16 MP on K-1 (36 MB body). If the person will never use FF camera then it doesn't matter.

Buying FF lenses makes it more future proof, if choose to go full frame in the future.
Since the person has only $600 budget then it would be hard to buy K-50 with a nice new full frame lens. That is why I think that K-50 with 18-135 combo is a nice combo. Of course if money is not an issue then choices are endless.
In the end it is what makes the person happy. There is no good or wrong answer here. Too many variables. We don't even know what this person wants shoot...
birds in flight, sports, landscapes???. That could influence also what to buy.
Bottom line is happy shooting...it's only a money :-)
07-28-2016, 05:16 PM - 1 Like   #21
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As regards photographic performance, KS-2 and K30/K50 are in the same league, their AF, their IQ, as well as their long term reliability (MTBF) will be very close.
Size and weight are also very close, so are their ergonomy, save for the tilt and swivel screen and the WiFi.

IMO, weight, size and focal range are what matter most for someone coming from a compact point and shoot.
I have K30 (=same camera as K50, only difference is the design of the body) and K3. K30 is lighter than K3, which I still appreciate for hiking though K3 is a better camera.

24MP are K3 is nice to have, but in real life you dont see the difference in most scenes, unless you need to print huge pictures or crop a lot 16 MP are enough.
The MP race is driven by manufacturers, because it is easy to sell more MP as an improvement, as it is rather cheap to produce and people will believe more MP will automatically deliver a better image. In real life, focus accuracy (whether AF or MF), lens performance, and camera handling are what matter most to produce better pictures, but these features are expensive.

A tilt and swivel screen is nice because it improves camera handling in the field.
WiFi may be important for people who like to immediately share pictures they have just shot, like they use to do when shooting with a smartphone, or for remote control of the camera.

Thus if she wants these features, she must choose the K-S2, which will come with a collapsible 18-50 lens, and thus will also be smaller and lighter than K50 with 18-135.

On the other hand, if she is the kind of girl who wants the best bang for her bucks, or if she wants a do-everything lens that will cover most usual photographic needs, with real telephoto ability without the need to change lenses, K50+DA 18-135 is the best choice.

I have several very nice primes (DA15, DA21, DA40XS, DA35 f2.4, FA50 f1.7, DA70) and several zoom lenses (DA18-55, DA50-200, DA17-70, DA55-300).
Yet DA 18-135 is my most used lens, either with K3 or K30. It is the lens I choose when I dont know what kind of scene I will shoot, when I want to go light for hiking or sightseeing, when I dont want to change lenses in the field, when the weather is rainy or windy.
My DA 18-55 is a tad lighter, but almost same size, thus I will choose the 18-135 over the 18-55.
My DA 17-70 has better IQ at the wide end or fully open, but it is bigger and more cumbersome.
My primes are very small and nicely built, they have a larger aperture, which allows low-light shooting or a shadow depth of field, but they are for sessions when photography is my priority and i know what I will be shooting.
07-28-2016, 07:22 PM - 1 Like   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
And the best pilot use semi-automatic... still almost nobody learn or try manual transmission in US while almost all do it in europe. Should we conclude US driver are worse?
Are photos shot in Manual mode better than photos shot in Auto mode? ;-)
07-28-2016, 08:52 PM   #23
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Wow! thanks everyone for all your comments, we learn something, get good arguments in each and every posts here... awesome!
I gave here the link to here, so she can make her own mind about all this.
I actually had a little conversation today, and she lean toward the K-S2 for the body, especially, like someone said her, she is at the beginning...
She admit to me she liked the techno features that the K-S2 is offering...
What I know about the type of photography she'd like to do, is first, for travelling/holidays, and she also willing to , eventually, try to do birds photography (but I explained that it would need at least a good 300 to 500mm in reach to get in that field)...

Anyways, I know she is reading this and lots of links on the net... so in her behalf, I thank you very much for your generosity... your are a great community like no other!

07-28-2016, 10:07 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by cleaverx Quote
"DA" lenses, can only be used on APS-C (crop) cameras,,,except DA *300mm f/4.0 which is FF supported. I think there is one more
Theres a few more than one more,however the 18-135mm(mentioned previously) only works in crop mode on K1.I don't own the 18-50mm, so cant comment on that one.
07-28-2016, 10:08 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by severalsnakes Quote
Are photos shot in Manual mode better than photos shot in Auto mode? ;-)
Good question for a whole other post/thread. Itʻs all about control vs. speed or convenience. There are specific situations where one will be better than the other. Inherently no modes produce better photos; itʻs the photographerʻs choice of how to interact with the camera and with experience, any exposure mode will have certain advantages and disadvantages.
07-28-2016, 10:48 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by severalsnakes Quote
Are photos shot in Manual mode better than photos shot in Auto mode? ;-)
Hahahah and which auto mode? Even in manual you get exposure read, AF if you want it and if a TTL flash is attached you can still get correct exposure automatically.

All other mode are even more automatic. The camera compensate either with iso, apperture or shutter speed to get a correct exposure. The green mode is more automatic, that's true ans you can't use the same creativity here, but that's about it.

Should we use an external lightmeter as well ?
07-28-2016, 11:01 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
Theres a few more than one more,however the 18-135mm(mentioned previously) only works in crop mode on K1.I don't own the 18-50mm, so cant comment on that one.
What I meant that any K-mount lens including "DA" lenses can be used on K-1, but most "DA" lenses will work in only crop mode (16 MB) on K-1 with some exceptions like DA *300mm f/4.0 (Fantastic lens). The DA 18-135 is an awesome all around lens. I don't own one, but it is on my wish list.
I own SMC Pentax-DA 18-55mm F3.5-5.6 AL WR. Not a bad lens. It got a bad rep. It is soft around the ends of the focal range, but anything between 20-45mm with aperture closed down to at least 9.0 it can produce fairly sharp images. I just did some indoor shots of the house for my wife's real estate using tripod, ISO 100 at 18mm f/9.0 and pictures came out surprisingly sharp.
.

---------- Post added 07-28-16 at 11:30 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Hahahah and which auto mode? Even in manual you get exposure read, AF if you want it and if a TTL flash is attached you can still get correct exposure automatically.

All other mode are even more automatic. The camera compensate either with iso, apperture or shutter speed to get a correct exposure. The green mode is more automatic, that's true ans you can't use the same creativity here, but that's about it.

Should we use an external lightmeter as well ?
There is a difference between manual focus lens and auto exposure. You can have auto exposure on manual lens anything above "A" lens. Even with K or M lenses yo can use the "Green Button" like you mention. There are many scenarios when fully manual exposure is better. Camera is not always correct or it gives you what you want from it.
Camera is just a tool to give you the picture you see. Why do you think that there is "M" on most cameras even on point and shoot. One simple reason..more control.
If someone only wants to shoot in "P" or any full auto mode..more power to them. My iPhone does pretty good job at that too.
I shoot landscapes mostly in "M' manual mode. Birds in "Tav" (aperture and speed priority with +/- compensation depends on background). I almost never shoot "P" or fully auto with K-50...but I do use some fully auto modes on my Panasonic Lumix FZ-200 (shooting jpegs).
Look at this this way , whatever mode get the results that is all that matter. That is beauty of the photography..more than one way to get pictures we want.

Last edited by cleaverx; 07-28-2016 at 11:35 PM.
07-28-2016, 11:42 PM   #28
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The 18-55,50-200,16-45 all vignette at the wide end in FF MODE....55-300 ever so slightly....move them up the FL 4-6mm and they seem reasonably good.The DA 40ltd & DA 50plastic fantastic work well on K1...I'm disappointed that the 18-135 only works on crop,which still provides very good image.Theres nothing wrong with using 16mp.Also, the DA 35, 200 and 300 work fine,so I've read.Theres others that work partially and the 60-250 only needs a slight baffle mod and it becomes FF.
07-29-2016, 12:00 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
The 18-55,50-200,16-45 all vignette at the wide end in FF MODE....55-300 ever so slightly....move them up the FL 4-6mm and they seem reasonably good.The DA 40ltd & DA 50plastic fantastic work well on K1...I'm disappointed that the 18-135 only works on crop,which still provides very good image.Theres nothing wrong with using 16mp.Also, the DA 35, 200 and 300 work fine,so I've read.Theres others that work partially and the 60-250 only needs a slight baffle mod and it becomes FF.
surfar,
Thanks for the info on the "DA" lenses on K-1. I am getting my K-1 next week. I am afraid, once I start shooting with K-1 I will sell one of my K-50 with "DA" lenses to make room for older FF lens like SMC A* 600mm f/5.6 ED [IF].

Last edited by cleaverx; 07-29-2016 at 12:14 AM.
07-29-2016, 12:26 AM   #30
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To me AF is a great technology that give as much control as MF in theory. In practice, you get this control more easily.

When you use MF, you typically need a huge view finder with a split screen that enable it only in the center. It is much better with an FF body. Even focus peaking on the backscreen is not enough if you don't zoom. But yes your are fully in control. Still in many situation like dim light, it doesn't work that great. And the time to achieve focus is longer than what a camera achieve.

With AF, you get the same control. You can choose whatever focus point you want, you can have dedicated AF button to AF only when you ask the camera to do it and as long as you press this button with AF-C you can trust the camera to keep adjusting if you subject or your hands move slight for a very shallow dof shot. You are not limited to center aid in the viewfinder and so don't need to focus recompose something that take time and introduce focus errors.

The camera doesn't choose for you, it just obey what you ask it to do. Even classical MF tricks like prefocussing is fully possible, just AF where you want, and stop asking the camera to adjust AF and that's done. When the subject were you want, ask to take the picture.

You are in full control... Yet get the focus done in a fraction of a second, even in dim light, even if your eyes sight not so great. You can do it on a large area of the picture rather than just in the center.

The tool is sure powerfull.

I am not against MF or people doing MF... But I don't think we should avoid technology. If a beginner start today, there no point to ask it to take photos like 30 years agos.
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