[EArenz]

This thread is amusing. All the gnashing of teeth and wailing about Pentax being so far behind.
Over here the Nikon people are wailing about being behind Pentax (and at a higher price):

Nikon D820 Wishlist

Seems there's a lot of 1/4 full cups...

[THoog]

Seems there's a lot of 1/4 full cups...

The grass is always greener on another brand's default settings...

[pathdoc]

Over here the Nikon people are wailing about being behind Pentax (and at a higher price):

Give us a Pentax camera with Nikon-level AF tracking performance and focus-point density, add 4K video, put a decent set of D-FA primes behind it (say 28mm, fast 50mm, 85mm 'star' and 135mm for starters), and it would be Camera-geddon. Photokina's floors would run red with Canikon blood and Pentax could easily find themselves being one of the Big Two again, especially if they managed to repeat their 645Z and K-1 magic and bring it in under Canikon's price point.

Standing in the way of this are (a) potential production capacity bottlenecks and (b) customer service and support issues (especially in the US).

[The Squirrel Mafia]

Pentax has been pretty quiet. I'm on the same boat. I would like to upgrade to an APS-C flagship, but after seeing what Pentax has done with the K-70, I would like to wait & see what Pentax does with the next generation APS-C flagship. I could get the K-3II by the end of this year, but then I would be upset if Pentax came out with a new flagship a few months later that doesn't cost that much more than the K-3II & has much better performance along with newer features to boot.

As it is, the K-3II is still a mighty fine camera that's very usable up to ISO 12800. The new K-70 looks to be usable up to ISO 25600. Right off the bat the K-70 seems to have slightly better IQ over the K-3II. At higher ISO, it looks like the K-3II has a tad bit more detail with finer grain, while the K-70 has much better "false coloring" control. If you convert higher ISO images from both cameras to black & white, the K-3II will pull ahead slightly with the fine detail. However, the K-70 doesn't have the OVF AF capabilities & build of the K-3II 'cause it's not a flagship.

I'm guessing that the upcoming APS-C flagship will receive a small IQ & AF upgrade at the minimum. It will obvisouly have a few new features as well. A bunch of K-5/5II/5IIs & K-3/3II owners will probably upgrade & a bunch of us that use "lower grade" models will probably make the jump as well.

For some of us, it'll be a waiting game for now.

[Kunzite]

Wait. Definitely wait.

Give us a Pentax camera with Nikon-level AF tracking performance and focus-point density, add 4K video, put a decent set of D-FA primes behind it (say 28mm, fast 50mm, 85mm 'star' and 135mm for starters), and it would be Camera-geddon. Photokina's floors would run red with Canikon blood and Pentax could easily find themselves being one of the Big Two again, especially if they managed to repeat their 645Z and K-1 magic and bring it in under Canikon's price point.

Standing in the way of this are (a) potential production capacity bottlenecks and (b) customer service and support issues (especially in the US).

Are you sure about that? The NX-1 didn't help Samsung.

There's no silver bullet, no single product to raise Pentax' market share by a huge amount. Even the "K-1 magic" is nowhere near that, actually the planned volumes were just a bit higher than those of a Canon/Nikon flagship (despite being a much less expensive product).
Is it hopeless, then? No!! The only thing that's hopeless is this thought of a "miraculous" solution. Hard work, good products like the K-1 and the new lenses would slowly raise Pentax to it's deserved place. There's no shortcut around that.

[pathdoc]

but then I would be upset if Pentax came out with a new flagship a few months later that doesn't cost that much more than the K-3II & has much better performance along with newer features to boot.

Any APS-C flagship that showed a significant performance gain over the K-3ii will IMO come in at four figures in $US. Perhaps only just, and only thanks to sales tax, but still four figures.

Remember that what you are paying for are not only labour and materials but also research and development and the cost of building the production line. If it were possible to have churned out K-3's until the cows came home, with a guaranteed customer base and no need ever to worry about obsolescence, the price would eventually be way lower than it is now... but even though the K-3 is more camera than most people will ever need (and in five to ten years would be the perfect beginner camera; not the -ii, though, because DSLR beginners tend to use their onboard flashes a great deal), things don't work that way in camera land.

And it's all very well to say "Use K-1 technology and spread the cost around", but then you have to be careful, because although "research" and "development" are often used in the same breath, it's one thing to bring a concept to physical fruition; it's another to translate that concept into hardware/firmware that manages both full frame AND APS-C sized sensors appropriately. So there may be additional R&D costs involved in adapting the K-1's SR system (for example) to an APS-C sensor size (and packaging that downsized system into the new body), and that might eat up some of the gains to be had in "sharing the technology around" (just as it would have if the K-1's five-axis SR tech had been developed for an APS-C sensor first and then upscaled for the big beast).

---------- Post added 08-09-16 at 13:52 ----------

Wait. Definitely wait.

Are you sure about that? ... The only thing that's hopeless is this thought of a "miraculous" solution. Hard work, good products like the K-1 and the new lenses would slowly raise Pentax to it's deserved place. There's no shortcut around that.

I am reasonably sure about that.

The other, unspoken, bottleneck is of course Pentax's ability to make up the perceived deficits in AF/video performance, and the work required to produce those D-FA lenses to an appropriate standard. And no, there's no shortcut, I agree. But I am a believer in the ability of ANY of the DSLR makers to uncork a game-changer, including Pentax. It is possible. Difficult, and requiring all the stars to align in the right way at the right time, but possible. The way you describe is the current strategy being adhered to, and I cannot complain, but don't we all hope for a breakthrough?

[normhead]

Wait. Definitely wait.

Are you sure about that? The NX-1 didn't help Samsung.

There's no silver bullet, no single product to raise Pentax' market share by a huge amount. Even the "K-1 magic" is nowhere near that, actually the planned volumes were just a bit higher than those of a Canon/Nikon flagship (despite being a much less expensive product).
Is it hopeless, then? No!! The only thing that's hopeless is this thought of a "miraculous" solution. Hard work, good products like the K-1 and the new lenses would slowly raise Pentax to it's deserved place. There's no shortcut around that.

Absolutely, in my mind, the K-1 just took away your last excuse for 90% of the whiners and complainers, .. time to go out and take some decent pictures. Your last excuse is so ancient history.

[Kunzite]

Actually, it's my K-1 who has to find excuses about taking decent pictures... "oh, I could do much better but my master is not very skilled and a bit lazy..."

---------- Post added 08-09-16 at 08:04 PM ----------

I am reasonably sure about that.

The other, unspoken, bottleneck is of course Pentax's ability to make up the perceived deficits in AF/video performance, and the work required to produce those D-FA lenses to an appropriate standard. And no, there's no shortcut, I agree. But I am a believer in the ability of ANY of the DSLR makers to uncork a game-changer, including Pentax. It is possible. Difficult, and requiring all the stars to align in the right way at the right time, but possible. The way you describe is the current strategy being adhered to, and I cannot complain, but don't we all hope for a breakthrough?

I don't. Because breakthroughs don't work, except in very special circumstances. And Pentax getting to the level of the D500 is not a breakthrough nor a game changer, it's catching up. We're talking here about a significant investment made with no other purpose than to catch up to a Nikon flagship, but being later than Nikon, having to do more R&D, and not having the user base to buy such products in volume.
And if they somehow go drunk and plan (as in: actually increase production capacity) for Nikon volumes, they would close shop when sales won't follow. Sorry, it just doesn't work like this.

Let me stress out - again - the K-1 example. It's an excellent camera. It does help Pentax get well deserved recognition. It does help Pentax to sell more. By all accounts, we should call it an outstanding success.
However, it won't make Pentax raise its market share anywhere near Canikon volumes. Which is perfectly fine, actually.

We have to be happy with Pentax continuing to launch new amazing products, and growing little by little; we should support them with our money if they make something we deem as desirable (and within our budgets). Stop dreaming; start shooting.

---------- Post added 08-09-16 at 08:13 PM ----------

By the way, I consider my view of Pentax - as expressed in the posts above - as very much positive, because it implies they can be successful without any "magic product". Just with Pentax products!

[normhead]

And Pentax getting to the level of the D500 is not a breakthrough nor a game changer, it's catching up.

Not to mention that anyone shooting Pentax who want D500 capabilities and hasn't yet bought a D500 is being obstinate to the point of ridiculousness. If that's what you need, buy it, don't sit on your chair complaining that Pentax doesn't have it. For the added usability over my K-3 you get with a D500, I'd rather have the $1000 dollars. But hey, that's just me.

Honestly, do you think there is even one serious shooter out there who wants D500 capability, still shooting Pentax, and just waiting for Pentax to release a D500 type body? Is there even one? What's the guys name? They just aren't part of the Pentax market. Think about it, Nikon's market share is 40%. The D500 is what? maybe 2% of their DSLR business. Pentax is 3%... what's 2% of 3% in terms of actual camera numbers?

Honest to pete, if the K-1 doesn't complete your camera needs, you need to find another company. You own the wrong camera made by the wrong company, and you're on the wrong forum.

[stevebrot]

This thread is amusing. All the gnashing of teeth and wailing about Pentax being so far behind.
Over here the Nikon people are wailing about being behind Pentax (and at a higher price):

Nikon D820 Wishlist

Seems there's a lot of 1/4 full cups...

That list reads a lot like the complaints voiced here, only those here make it sound like the desired features already exist on other cameras.


Steve

[EArenz]

That list reads a lot like the complaints voiced here, only those here make it sound like the desired features already exist on other cameras.

Steve

Exactly what struck my funny-bone. :-)

[monochrome]

In Europe/Germany (where camera gear is pretty much always more expensive than in the US) K3 II €900, D7200 €930.



Agreed.



No, superior AF (better tracking, almost twice as many AF points, probably the same accuracy in AF.S), better image quality (according to most reviews, DxOMark and objective image comparison tools I have used to compare DR and high ISO).




I don't know what 'OBF' stands for, and neither do online acronym finders



As of now Pentax offers the best combination of features for me. I take a worse AF and flash system because I value the ruggedness, small features, weather sealing and ergonomics more. But that doesn't keep me from still hoping for improvements in certain areas, and voicing these hopes. I am sure Nikon shooters are doing the same.

Oh, and just to reiterate - I don't hate the K3, I don't hate Pentax, I was simply agreeing with someone on here that the K3 could do with a major upgrade, because by now there are simply better cameras out there that have somewhat raised the bar (like the D7200).

OBF = On Board Flash.

Never thought you hate Pentax or you wouldn't be here.

I've just come to accept the things many here keep longing for aren't coming any time soon, so I plan to use what I have and get a second system if I really need a special application (I don't)

[pathdoc]

I don't want Pentax to beat the D500 now - I want its NEXT APS-C flagship (or possibly its next APS-C flagship bar one) to stomp all over what the D500 will be followed by. For the sake of its future success and ongoing survival, I want Pentax to one day be able to come up with a camera so good that the world will beat a path to its door, bypassing all others. Is that too much to dream of?

In the meantime, in the real world of the present day, I will be getting myself a K-1 because after reading what everyone here who owns one thinks of this camera, I think that across the board it's currently the best DSLR Pentax has ever made and it will do everything I personally could possibly conceive of asking it to do and then some. And until Pentax makes the God Camera of which I dream, the K-1 will do me until I either shoot the shutter mechanism into the ground or some other fatal, unfixable flaw develops.

[Kunzite]

The next Pentax APS-C flagship might be announced in a few days; its design won't be altered no matter how much we ask.
As for the next flagships, let's see Pentax getting there; let's see the user base demanding - and most important, willing to pay - for such a level of performance. To think of targets still out of reach just makes you unhappy with the real products (and, I bet, the next Pentax APS-C flagship will be bashed to death for not being a D500).

OTOH, the new D FA lenses goes some way in that direction. D500 level or not, Pentax is making good progress.

[The Squirrel Mafia]

Pentax needs to keep the next APS-C flagship in line with the other makes like the Canon D80, Nikon D7200, & Sony A77II.

It would be nice if they could eventually build some kind of D500/7DII competitor along the way. It could be called the "K-47", "K-16", or something, showing off it's tracking ability while firing several keeper shots. Aaawww yeeaaahh!