How common is the aperture block failure, really?

**Quartermaster James** · 06-10-2018, 11:23 AM

Originally posted by reh321

Evidence is that "parking" the camera is the best way to bring on this problem; to answer your original question, rate may be close to 100% if it goes unused for six months or so, but it will still work fine with FA lenses, which both plentiful and reasonably priced.

To clarify and add further: yes, the K-30 was a secondary camera and kept at my office, but the battery was maintained and the camera fired approximately monthly.

**clackers** · 06-10-2018, 01:32 PM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by Not a Number

He can't count you if you didn't raise your hand before or missed seeing it

Then there are these:
Pentax Aperture Block Failure Survey Results - Articles and Tips | PentaxForums.com
Poll to establish relationship of K-30/50 frequent failure issues - PentaxForums.com

Correct.

We already did an official forum survey, in which ten percent of known owners responded, including myself.

The failure rate was 30% amongst this minority.

It would have contained the angriest, most motivated members - the ones affected.

But ninety percent did not respond at all ... there was no problem for them or they never read the email.

So as frustrating as this issue is, especially occuring after the warranty period expires, one crude estimate for the overall failure rate would be only three percent.

From time to time we do see in this forum yet another post wondering why pictures are suddenly coming out black, but there would have been thousands of these introductory models sold (I have both the K-30 and K-S2), way more than the prosumer K-5, K-3 and K-1.

**RGlasel** · 06-10-2018, 02:26 PM

Originally posted by clackers

one crude estimate for the overall failure rate would be only three percent.

Hey, I took a stats course once and you can only make that estimate if there is a high probability that 100% of the 90% who didn't answer the poll have not had anything resembling an aperture block problem with their K30/50. But you can definitely estimate that the actual failure rate is significantly less than 30%, because a) other failures will be perceived as being related and b) internet polls, regardless of how well they are implemented, have a high probability of getting responses that don't accurately reflect the entire population.

What can be said, regardless of the actual failure rate, is that the probability of having this exact failure in the future goes down dramatically over time. Mechanical things don't fail at random, it only looks that way because we don't know what caused the failure to occur when it did. Even when there is a known faulty design or manufacturing defect, it is not a sure thing that every single example will fail, because in every instance there is something external to the component itself that causes the failure (otherwise it would fail immediately and leave the population of potential failures). As that component is operated over time without failing, the probability that this particular component will not be exposed to external agents of failure often enough to cause its eventual failure goes up. Unfortunately, there are many components in a camera that can fail, and if the camera is operated enough times to cause some component to fail, the camera will become inoperable, regardless. So, if the buyer of a used K-30 or K-50 operates it several times without failure after receiving it, the probability that camera will fail from something other than aperture block is much higher than 80% (assuming an actual aperture block failure rate of 20% for all K-30's and K-50's produced). I have no idea what my early build K-30 with only 13,000 shutter actuations and no failures of any type, is worth in the used marketplace, but I expect that it's resale value is low enough that someone could take a chance on buying it from me with minimal risk.

Additional verbiage: In another life I was a warranty administrator and worked in owner relations for Ford Motor Company. Every purchase comes with risk, risk of not satisfying the needs of the buyer at some point in time. Even if the unhappy buyer returns the purchased item for a full refund, there is a cost to the buyer of not obtaining all of the satisfaction he or she paid for. Even if the purchased item provides wonderful service for much longer than expected, there is the risk that whatever is purchased to replace that item will provide much less satisfaction. No matter how you look at it, buying things results in unhappiness.

**clackers** · 06-10-2018, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by RGlasel

Hey, I took a stats course once and you can only make that estimate if there is a high probability that 100% of the 90% who didn't answer the poll have not had anything resembling an aperture block problem with their K30/50.

Correct, as I said, RGlasel, "But ninety percent did not respond at all ... there was no problem for them or they never read the email."

LensBeginner · 06-10-2018, 02:40 PM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by RGlasel

*snip*
I have no idea what my early build K-30 with only 13,000 shutter actuations and no failures of any type, is worth in the used marketplace, but I expect that it's resale value is low enough that someone could take a chance on buying it from me with minimal risk.

Additional verbiage: In another life I was a warranty administrator and worked in owner relations for Ford Motor Company. Every purchase comes with risk, risk of not satisfying the needs of the buyer at some point in time. Even if the unhappy buyer returns the purchased item for a full refund, there is a cost to the buyer of not obtaining all of the satisfaction he or she paid for. Even if the purchased item provides wonderful service for much longer than expected, there is the risk that whatever is purchased to replace that item will provide much less satisfaction. No matter how you look at it, buying things results in unhappiness.

A-ha, so there's your motive to downplaying the issue... you're looking to sell!

I think some of the things you said don't apply to the ACB failures... failures tend to happen when the camera is left unused, so time can pass and you can have one camera failing and another remaining functional, but it depends on how it was used.
If you want to remain in the abstraction, failure rate over time will go up because more and more people will demote their K-30 to second body as they buy more advanced ones. But they also become less likely to notice because they'll be using their K-30 less and less as it becomes obsolete.

Regarding the post scriptum... buyer's remorse?

reh321 · 06-10-2018, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by clackers

Your figures and source data, please, Reh!

I have a K-30 that's often gone six months between uses since 2012, doesn't my experience count?

My evidence is that when people report a failure they often also report that it had been idle. I'm not saying that Idleness always leads to failure; I am saying that when failure occurs, it is often proceeded by idleness. Personally, I believe that some start off with a "leaning toward" failure, but that failure will happen only if there is a period of idleness.

reh321 · 06-10-2018, 02:55 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Quartermaster James

To clarify and add further: yes, the K-30 was a secondary camera and kept at my office, but the battery was maintained and the camera fired approximately monthly.

My opinion is that having battery in camera has no effect at all; my opinion is that there is some kind of corrosion issue with the solenoid, and the solenoid has to "flex", to move, to clean off whatever is happening. My opinion is that monthly is not enough activity; I've been trying to use mine weekly; even then, it sometimes fails on the first try, but then revives after that.

LensBeginner · 06-10-2018, 03:01 PM

Originally posted by reh321

My opinion is that having battery in camera has no effect at all; my opinion is that there is some kind of corrosion issue with the solenoid, and the solenoid has to "flex", to move, to clean off whatever is happening. My opinion is that monthly is not enough activity; I've been trying to use mine weekly; even then, it sometimes fails on the first try, but then revives after that.

I've disassembled one... no sign of corrosion.
People have had some temporary success (similar to what you'd achieve shooting a burst to "exercise" the aperture) by rubbing a magnet near the camera body where the solenoid is (i.e. above the lens release button).

**clackers** · 06-10-2018, 03:39 PM

Originally posted by reh321

My evidence is that when people report a failure they often also report that it had been idle. I'm not saying that Idleness always leads to failure; I am saying that when failure occurs, it is often proceeded by idleness. Personally, I believe that some start off with a "leaning toward" failure, but that failure will happen only if there is a period of idleness.

Yes, it is surely a 'stiction' kind of thing that can happen for some with that particular solenoid, but the survey had little to conclude about shutter count or age of camera. Patterns of usage were not asked, so we really have no data on that either.

Theov39 · 06-12-2018, 11:37 AM

Originally posted by Hamiltom

I agree that the flagship models are excellent. (I've had one since they came out.)

That said, I also like having a lighter body and the ergonomics of the K30 were wonderful.

True. Which is why I got my K-50 fixed although I already have a K-3 and K-7. Its light weight also makes it a great travel camera and the image quality is superb, even with the kit lens.

**suraswami** · 06-12-2018, 02:56 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by clackers

Yes, it is surely a 'stiction' kind of thing that can happen for some with that particular solenoid, but the survey had little to conclude about shutter count or age of camera. Patterns of usage were not asked, so we really have no data on that either.

My opinion, the part used for K50 is sub-par or crap. I used my K50 camera almost daily, family even run other direction to avoid me lol, but it still failed. I replaced it with white solenoid and the camera has been rock solid since then. My main is K3, so this K50 is used less now, still works fine. In fact the white solenoid was borrowed from *istDS camera that died because of water damage, the solenoid from it works like a charm!!

Note: I didn't kill the *istDS camera, bought it from Craigslist, the owner listed as water damage, came with Tamron 28-300 lens, he was not sure if it was dead too. Luckily the lens was in pristine condition. $20 well spent for both

LensBeginner · 06-12-2018, 04:11 PM

Originally posted by suraswami

My opinion, the part used for K50 is sub-par or crap. I used my K50 camera almost daily, family even run other direction to avoid me lol, but it still failed. I replaced it with white solenoid and the camera has been rock solid since then. My main is K3, so this K50 is used less now, still works fine. In fact the white solenoid was borrowed from 1st DS camera that died because of water damage, the solenoid from it works like a charm!!

Note: I didn't kill the 1st DS camera, bought it from Craigslist, the owner listed as water damage, came with Tamron 28-300 lens, he was not sure if it was dead too. Luckily the lens was in pristine condition. $20 well spent for both

There's white solenoids listed for 40USD on eBay... so you got yourself a double deal!
On K100D there should a "bonus" withe solenoid to open the pop-up flash, don't know about istDS, but I'd definitely check...

**clackers** · 06-12-2018, 04:39 PM

Originally posted by LensBeginner

There's white solenoids listed for 40USD on eBay... so you got yourself a double deal!
On K100D there should a "bonus" withe solenoid to open the pop-up flash, don't know about istDS, but I'd definitely check...

Yeah, this has got to be cheaper than getting Ricoh to replace the whole aperture block, and more lasting than filing or using AA batteries or whatever.

**suraswami** · 06-12-2018, 05:10 PM

Originally posted by LensBeginner

There's white solenoids listed for 40USD on eBay... so you got yourself a double deal!
On K100D there should a "bonus" withe solenoid to open the pop-up flash, don't know about istDS, but I'd definitely check...

I bought the 28-300, 2 yrs ago when I was very new to K50, I kept the *istDS in a box. Used the lens for almost 2 yrs, on K3 it wasn't sharp enough, so sold it for $100. Luckily the *istDS gave life to the K50 even after it was dead.

**eyrr** · 06-12-2018, 07:03 PM

Originally posted by Hamiltom

My family experience:

My K30 lasted about 3 years and 8000 shots before failure.

My brother's K50 lasted about 2 1/2 years before failure.

My niece's K30 lasted about 2 1/2 years before failure.

All failures have identical symptoms related to aperture block failure.

My K30 was the last to fail and I will be swapping out a film body solenoid into it and hopefully that will cure the problem.

Obviously, I won't ever consider a new Pentax with that aperture control system again.

I really think Ricoh should address this issue with some form of compensation/trade in credit to owners of these cameras. The reasoning behind this is that it is painfully obvious that these cameras have a manufacturing defect and that they fail under normal use.

Personally, I would use the credit to pick up a KP as I have Pentax bodies dating back to the 1960's.

Or the credit could be put toward a new 55-300 plm lens that would work in spite of the aperture block failure. There's a hack in another thread that is apparently able to run the K50 firmware upgrade on the K30 so it can be done and Ricoh could issue an official firmware upgrade for the k30. My K50 is solid so far, and I'm coming up to the 2 1/2 year mark.

06-10-2018, 01:32 PM - 2 Likes	#47
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by Not a Number He can't count you if you didn't raise your hand before or missed seeing it Then there are these: Pentax Aperture Block Failure Survey Results - Articles and Tips \| PentaxForums.com Poll to establish relationship of K-30/50 frequent failure issues - PentaxForums.com Correct. We already did an official forum survey, in which ten percent of known owners responded, including myself. The failure rate was 30% amongst this minority. It would have contained the angriest, most motivated members - the ones affected. But ninety percent did not respond at all ... there was no problem for them or they never read the email. So as frustrating as this issue is, especially occuring after the warranty period expires, one crude estimate for the overall failure rate would be only three percent. From time to time we do see in this forum yet another post wondering why pictures are suddenly coming out black, but there would have been thousands of these introductory models sold (I have both the K-30 and K-S2), way more than the prosumer K-5, K-3 and K-1. Last edited by clackers; 06-10-2018 at 01:48 PM.

06-10-2018, 02:26 PM	#48
RGlasel Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Saskatoon Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,227	Originally posted by clackers one crude estimate for the overall failure rate would be only three percent. Hey, I took a stats course once and you can only make that estimate if there is a high probability that 100% of the 90% who didn't answer the poll have not had anything resembling an aperture block problem with their K30/50. But you can definitely estimate that the actual failure rate is significantly less than 30%, because a) other failures will be perceived as being related and b) internet polls, regardless of how well they are implemented, have a high probability of getting responses that don't accurately reflect the entire population. What can be said, regardless of the actual failure rate, is that the probability of having this exact failure in the future goes down dramatically over time. Mechanical things don't fail at random, it only looks that way because we don't know what caused the failure to occur when it did. Even when there is a known faulty design or manufacturing defect, it is not a sure thing that every single example will fail, because in every instance there is something external to the component itself that causes the failure (otherwise it would fail immediately and leave the population of potential failures). As that component is operated over time without failing, the probability that this particular component will not be exposed to external agents of failure often enough to cause its eventual failure goes up. Unfortunately, there are many components in a camera that can fail, and if the camera is operated enough times to cause some component to fail, the camera will become inoperable, regardless. So, if the buyer of a used K-30 or K-50 operates it several times without failure after receiving it, the probability that camera will fail from something other than aperture block is much higher than 80% (assuming an actual aperture block failure rate of 20% for all K-30's and K-50's produced). I have no idea what my early build K-30 with only 13,000 shutter actuations and no failures of any type, is worth in the used marketplace, but I expect that it's resale value is low enough that someone could take a chance on buying it from me with minimal risk. Additional verbiage: In another life I was a warranty administrator and worked in owner relations for Ford Motor Company. Every purchase comes with risk, risk of not satisfying the needs of the buyer at some point in time. Even if the unhappy buyer returns the purchased item for a full refund, there is a cost to the buyer of not obtaining all of the satisfaction he or she paid for. Even if the purchased item provides wonderful service for much longer than expected, there is the risk that whatever is purchased to replace that item will provide much less satisfaction. No matter how you look at it, buying things results in unhappiness. Last edited by RGlasel; 06-10-2018 at 02:33 PM.

06-12-2018, 02:56 PM - 1 Like	#56
suraswami Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2015 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 419	Originally posted by clackers Yes, it is surely a 'stiction' kind of thing that can happen for some with that particular solenoid, but the survey had little to conclude about shutter count or age of camera. Patterns of usage were not asked, so we really have no data on that either. My opinion, the part used for K50 is sub-par or crap. I used my K50 camera almost daily, family even run other direction to avoid me lol, but it still failed. I replaced it with white solenoid and the camera has been rock solid since then. My main is K3, so this K50 is used less now, still works fine. In fact the white solenoid was borrowed from istDS camera that died because of water damage, the solenoid from it works like a charm!! Note: I didn't kill the istDS camera, bought it from Craigslist, the owner listed as water damage, came with Tamron 28-300 lens, he was not sure if it was dead too. Luckily the lens was in pristine condition. $20 well spent for both Last edited by suraswami; 06-12-2018 at 05:05 PM. Reason: wrong camera model typed, typed 1st DS instead of istDS*

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Fix for the aperture motor failure?	kernos	Pentax DSLR Discussion	51	09-30-2017 12:08 PM
Survey with shutter count and aperture block or shutter failure.	macman24054	Pentax K-30 & K-50	256	12-30-2016 11:47 PM
Aperture Block / Shutter Failure	lakeshore	Pentax DSLR Discussion	37	09-17-2016 05:24 AM
Is the SDM failure rate really that bad	coreyhkh	Pentax SLR Lens Discussion	108	07-21-2012 07:33 PM
How common is the K5 Shutter/mirror problem	Rin	Pentax K-5 & K-5 II	38	12-28-2011 05:35 PM

06-10-2018, 11:23 AM	#46
Quartermaster James Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Anchorage, Alaska Posts: 653	Originally posted by reh321 Evidence is that "parking" the camera is the best way to bring on this problem; to answer your original question, rate may be close to 100% if it goes unused for six months or so, but it will still work fine with FA lenses, which both plentiful and reasonably priced. To clarify and add further: yes, the K-30 was a secondary camera and kept at my office, but the battery was maintained and the camera fired approximately monthly.

06-10-2018, 02:34 PM	#49
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by RGlasel Hey, I took a stats course once and you can only make that estimate if there is a high probability that 100% of the 90% who didn't answer the poll have not had anything resembling an aperture block problem with their K30/50. Correct, as I said, RGlasel, "But ninety percent did not respond at all ... there was no problem for them or they never read the email."

06-10-2018, 02:40 PM - 2 Likes	#50
LensBeginner Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Photos: Albums Posts: 4,696	Originally posted by RGlasel snip I have no idea what my early build K-30 with only 13,000 shutter actuations and no failures of any type, is worth in the used marketplace, but I expect that it's resale value is low enough that someone could take a chance on buying it from me with minimal risk. Additional verbiage: In another life I was a warranty administrator and worked in owner relations for Ford Motor Company. Every purchase comes with risk, risk of not satisfying the needs of the buyer at some point in time. Even if the unhappy buyer returns the purchased item for a full refund, there is a cost to the buyer of not obtaining all of the satisfaction he or she paid for. Even if the purchased item provides wonderful service for much longer than expected, there is the risk that whatever is purchased to replace that item will provide much less satisfaction. No matter how you look at it, buying things results in unhappiness. A-ha, so there's your motive to downplaying the issue... you're looking to sell! I think some of the things you said don't apply to the ACB failures... failures tend to happen when the camera is left unused, so time can pass and you can have one camera failing and another remaining functional, but it depends on how it was used. If you want to remain in the abstraction, failure rate over time will go up because more and more people will demote their K-30 to second body as they buy more advanced ones. But they also become less likely to notice because they'll be using their K-30 less and less as it becomes obsolete. Regarding the post scriptum... buyer's remorse?

06-10-2018, 02:45 PM	#51
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,177	Originally posted by clackers Your figures and source data, please, Reh! I have a K-30 that's often gone six months between uses since 2012, doesn't my experience count? My evidence is that when people report a failure they often also report that it had been idle. I'm not saying that Idleness always leads to failure; I am saying that when failure occurs, it is often proceeded by idleness. Personally, I believe that some start off with a "leaning toward" failure, but that failure will happen only if there is a period of idleness.

06-10-2018, 02:55 PM - 1 Like	#52
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,177	Originally posted by Quartermaster James To clarify and add further: yes, the K-30 was a secondary camera and kept at my office, but the battery was maintained and the camera fired approximately monthly. My opinion is that having battery in camera has no effect at all; my opinion is that there is some kind of corrosion issue with the solenoid, and the solenoid has to "flex", to move, to clean off whatever is happening. My opinion is that monthly is not enough activity; I've been trying to use mine weekly; even then, it sometimes fails on the first try, but then revives after that.

06-10-2018, 03:01 PM	#53
LensBeginner Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Photos: Albums Posts: 4,696	Originally posted by reh321 My opinion is that having battery in camera has no effect at all; my opinion is that there is some kind of corrosion issue with the solenoid, and the solenoid has to "flex", to move, to clean off whatever is happening. My opinion is that monthly is not enough activity; I've been trying to use mine weekly; even then, it sometimes fails on the first try, but then revives after that. I've disassembled one... no sign of corrosion. People have had some temporary success (similar to what you'd achieve shooting a burst to "exercise" the aperture) by rubbing a magnet near the camera body where the solenoid is (i.e. above the lens release button).

06-10-2018, 03:39 PM	#54
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by reh321 My evidence is that when people report a failure they often also report that it had been idle. I'm not saying that Idleness always leads to failure; I am saying that when failure occurs, it is often proceeded by idleness. Personally, I believe that some start off with a "leaning toward" failure, but that failure will happen only if there is a period of idleness. Yes, it is surely a 'stiction' kind of thing that can happen for some with that particular solenoid, but the survey had little to conclude about shutter count or age of camera. Patterns of usage were not asked, so we really have no data on that either.

06-12-2018, 11:37 AM	#55
Theov39 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2015 Location: Sydney Posts: 594	Originally posted by Hamiltom I agree that the flagship models are excellent. (I've had one since they came out.) That said, I also like having a lighter body and the ergonomics of the K30 were wonderful. True. Which is why I got my K-50 fixed although I already have a K-3 and K-7. Its light weight also makes it a great travel camera and the image quality is superb, even with the kit lens.

06-12-2018, 04:11 PM	#57
LensBeginner Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Photos: Albums Posts: 4,696	Originally posted by suraswami My opinion, the part used for K50 is sub-par or crap. I used my K50 camera almost daily, family even run other direction to avoid me lol, but it still failed. I replaced it with white solenoid and the camera has been rock solid since then. My main is K3, so this K50 is used less now, still works fine. In fact the white solenoid was borrowed from 1st DS camera that died because of water damage, the solenoid from it works like a charm!! Note: I didn't kill the 1st DS camera, bought it from Craigslist, the owner listed as water damage, came with Tamron 28-300 lens, he was not sure if it was dead too. Luckily the lens was in pristine condition. $20 well spent for both There's white solenoids listed for 40USD on eBay... so you got yourself a double deal! On K100D there should a "bonus" withe solenoid to open the pop-up flash, don't know about istDS, but I'd definitely check...

06-12-2018, 04:39 PM	#58
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by LensBeginner There's white solenoids listed for 40USD on eBay... so you got yourself a double deal! On K100D there should a "bonus" withe solenoid to open the pop-up flash, don't know about istDS, but I'd definitely check... Yeah, this has got to be cheaper than getting Ricoh to replace the whole aperture block, and more lasting than filing or using AA batteries or whatever.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

06-12-2018, 05:10 PM	#59
suraswami Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2015 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 419	Originally posted by LensBeginner There's white solenoids listed for 40USD on eBay... so you got yourself a double deal! On K100D there should a "bonus" withe solenoid to open the pop-up flash, don't know about istDS, but I'd definitely check... I bought the 28-300, 2 yrs ago when I was very new to K50, I kept the istDS in a box. Used the lens for almost 2 yrs, on K3 it wasn't sharp enough, so sold it for $100. Luckily the istDS gave life to the K50 even after it was dead.

06-12-2018, 07:03 PM	#60
eyrr Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery Posts: 318	Originally posted by Hamiltom My family experience: My K30 lasted about 3 years and 8000 shots before failure. My brother's K50 lasted about 2 1/2 years before failure. My niece's K30 lasted about 2 1/2 years before failure. All failures have identical symptoms related to aperture block failure. My K30 was the last to fail and I will be swapping out a film body solenoid into it and hopefully that will cure the problem. Obviously, I won't ever consider a new Pentax with that aperture control system again. I really think Ricoh should address this issue with some form of compensation/trade in credit to owners of these cameras. The reasoning behind this is that it is painfully obvious that these cameras have a manufacturing defect and that they fail under normal use. Personally, I would use the credit to pick up a KP as I have Pentax bodies dating back to the 1960's. Or the credit could be put toward a new 55-300 plm lens that would work in spite of the aperture block failure. There's a hack in another thread that is apparently able to run the K50 firmware upgrade on the K30 so it can be done and Ricoh could issue an official firmware upgrade for the k30. My K50 is solid so far, and I'm coming up to the 2 1/2 year mark.