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07-28-2008, 12:39 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
People tends to forget that Canon and Nikon outsells Pentax many times but this is mostly because they have both high ends to make customers dream and dirt cheap models for them to buy when they "wake up".



Radu
This has been mentioned a few times in this thread already.
One of the things that sells camera brands to people is what is called an upgrade path. They may walk out the door with a Rebel, but it was the EOS1 that got them in the door in the first place.
A K200 user has a K20 for an upgrade path, but what of the user who wants or needs something higher specified than that?
To satisfy his or her need, the only choice is a different brand, and if they catch themselves early enough in the buying cycle, Pentax has lost a customer before they've had a chance to sell them anything.
If they want to introduce a "K2000", they have any number of old chassis that they can rebadge. Slap a fresh coat of paint on the istDL, call it something new and less stupid sounding and sell it.
What they need is something in the genuine professional end. Something that will make K20 users want to open their wallets again, and something that will make the person looking at a Canon or Nikon pause for a moment and at least consider the Pentax brand.
Right now, Pentax is selling lots of ground beef, but until they start cutting steaks, they are just another hamburger joint.

07-28-2008, 03:48 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
This has been mentioned a few times in this thread already.
One of the things that sells camera brands to people is what is called an upgrade path. They may walk out the door with a Rebel, but it was the EOS1 that got them in the door in the first place.
A K200 user has a K20 for an upgrade path, but what of the user who wants or needs something higher specified than that?
To satisfy his or her need, the only choice is a different brand, and if they catch themselves early enough in the buying cycle, Pentax has lost a customer before they've had a chance to sell them anything.
If they want to introduce a "K2000", they have any number of old chassis that they can rebadge. Slap a fresh coat of paint on the istDL, call it something new and less stupid sounding and sell it.
What they need is something in the genuine professional end. Something that will make K20 users want to open their wallets again, and something that will make the person looking at a Canon or Nikon pause for a moment and at least consider the Pentax brand.
Right now, Pentax is selling lots of ground beef, but until they start cutting steaks, they are just another hamburger joint.

Wheatfield,

I like the analogy of the ground beef versus steaks. I have met most of the people working at Pentax and I had the chance to meet and briefly talk with Mr. Ned Bunnell, President of Pentax USA, during the PMA 2008 in Las Vegas. To continue with your analogy, Mr. Bunnell is a new cook, and not only can he cook a good steak, he also is a master of French cuisine, Japanese cuisine and International cuisine. He will change this Hamburger Joint into an international gathering place. Just like Nikon changed their "old school" approach sometimes in the last few years or so, and regained the No.1 spot with the D3, Mr. Bunnell is slowly changing Pentax's approach to one more attuned to the world we now live in. Changes do take time, but hasn't Pentax made a lot of progress since the introduction of their first Pentax DSLR? I don't know exactly what is going to happen in the months ahead, but I know that something big is brewing at Pentax, mostly because Mr. Bunnell entrepreneurial experience. He will lead Pentax to better times. Do you see Nikon or Canon Presidents having a blogsite? Can you call Canon or Nikon and speak with a real person at the end of the line? I don't think so. Well...at Pentax these are facts. Like I mention sometimes back, owning a Pentax DSLR is more like belonging to a family. We're among friends.

Thank you for reading,

Yvon Bourque
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07-28-2008, 06:00 PM   #33
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Like a lot of people, I started photography with a P&S and later wanted a dSLR. So I went camera research in the Internet and in review sites. I also went to electronics store here. One of the needs for Pentax is being able to sell their products in the big eletronic stores like Best Buy or Circuit City. I live in Puerto Rico, and there isnt a camera store here, only photo labs, our camera stores died in the 90's. So most of the people here aren't going to consider buying off the internet, they prefer in-store. I bought my K10D off eBay, got it from someone who was selling it to get a K20D. Never held the K10 until I it arrived, although I did read that it handled like a 40D or D300 in terms of ergonomics, a bit lighter than the D300. One of the big pluses for Pentax is the huge backwards compatibility and the fact that they don't nickel and dime you like Canon or Nikon for the lens hoods and pouches. That turned me a bit off from Canon, also the fact that the XTi feels like a toy and the grip is crap. The D60 also feels like crap and the lack of the AF motor is a huge turn-off, but the D80 was a bit off my budget. Pentax offered me an advanced amateur/semi-pro camera in the K10D for only $600 used with only 2,000 shutter clicks and all in the box. Maybe all you have to do is give us a pro-level camera to dream of and a starter like the Rebel that doesn't feel like a toy and that inspires confidence.

*also, if anyone here is dnd45 in eBay, thanks for the camera *
07-28-2008, 06:22 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by k10dbook Quote
I don't know exactly what is going to happen in the months ahead, but I know that something big is brewing at Pentax, mostly because Mr. Bunnell entrepreneurial experience. He will lead Pentax to better times. Do you see Nikon or Canon Presidents having a blogsite? Can you call Canon or Nikon and speak with a real person at the end of the line? I don't think so. Well...at Pentax these are facts. Like I mention sometimes back, owning a Pentax DSLR is more like belonging to a family. We're among friends.

Thank you for reading,

Yvon Bourque

This is indeed good news! Thanks for sharing!

....and being among friends? You couldn't have spoken better words!

07-29-2008, 07:37 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by PollitowuzHere Quote
One of the needs for Pentax is being able to sell their products in the big eletronic stores like Best Buy or Circuit City.
When Microsoft made their investment in Best Buy, all Mac software -- except MS Office for Mac -- went off the shelves.
It wasn't because of lack of consumer demand, and the biggest request made of Best Buy store managers to their regional distributors was for a return of Mac software.

In other words, politics win.

I'm sure Nikon would see Canon removed from all stores if they could, but they cannot afford pay enough to do so.
But Nikon can pay enough to get rid of Pentax and Sony.

BTW, Circuit City does sell Pentax on-line.
07-29-2008, 08:51 AM   #36
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[QUOTE=k10dbook;301445]Dear Pentax users and friends,

I often hear photographers saying that it's too bad you can't find Pentax cameras and lenses in some of the smaller camera stores and even in some big store as well. "



IMO Pentax-as-pitiable is a VERY tiresome line of discussion. :ugh:

Pentax simply makes high performance cameras for amateurs, it doesn't support professional fantasies. Pentax developed its fine amateur reputation carefully and intentionally for over 40 years. 645 was a sideline, it's appropriately dead and gone (DSLRs better in every way than 645 for professionals).

Forget Canon and Nikon. They are both far better for professional wannabes than Pentax.

Think of Pentax as you would a Toyota. It's not a race car or laughable "sports sedan," but in every meaningful way it outperforms or matches any BMW or Ferrari.

prosumer Canons and Nikons owned by pros feed on legacy AF lenses they, their friends and associates, already own, Pentax doesn't have that marketing advantage. Photojournalists are trained formally (in schools) to expect Nikon/Canon (Lightstalkers.com, Strobist.com)...Pentax is not a player for them.

Pentax is fine amateur equipment, same as Leica (for 40 years). Neither are professional equipment, though both can serve.

Enjoy Pentax for what it is. Stop worrying about Nikon/Canon...they're irrelevant and Pentax (especially the lesser K200D) isn't even trying to compete against Nikon/Canon's wannabe-pro schtick.

I bought my K20D specifically because I couldn't afford Leica M8.. Pentax (especially with pancakes) is more like Leica (which it outperforms) than it is like Canon or Nikon.

Last edited by janosh; 07-29-2008 at 08:57 AM.
07-29-2008, 09:09 AM   #37
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...also, D3 hasn't taken anything away from Canon. No Nikon rivals top Canons for studio photography and no Canon rivals top Nikons for sports photography.

The Pentax upgrade from K20D should be lenses, not bodies. It's clear that Pentax users relish cheap antiques and inferior (Sigma/Tamron) lenses...Pentax needs to chase a more demanding, more affluent market to which they can readily sell better optics.

Me, I need faster Pentax lenses, I have no need for better-than-K20D body, and there's zero logic in f/4 zooms of any brand in an upgrade path.

Last edited by janosh; 07-29-2008 at 09:30 AM.
07-29-2008, 09:16 AM   #38
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[QUOTE=janosh;303995]
QuoteOriginally posted by k10dbook Quote
Dear Pentax users and friends,

I often hear photographers saying that it's too bad you can't find Pentax cameras and lenses in some of the smaller camera stores and even in some big store as well. "



IMO Pentax-as-pitiable is a VERY tiresome line of discussion. :ugh:

Pentax simply makes high performance cameras for amateurs, it doesn't support professional fantasies. Pentax developed its fine amateur reputation carefully and intentionally for over 40 years. 645 was a sideline, it's appropriately dead and gone (DSLRs better in every way than 645 for professionals).

Forget Canon and Nikon. They are both far better for professional wannabes than Pentax.

Think of Pentax as you would a Toyota. It's not a race car or laughable "sports sedan," but in every meaningful way it outperforms or matches any BMW or Ferrari.

prosumer Canons and Nikons owned by pros feed on legacy AF lenses they, their friends and associates, already own, Pentax doesn't have that marketing advantage. Photojournalists are trained formally (in schools) to expect Nikon/Canon (Lightstalkers.com, Strobist.com)...Pentax is not a player for them.

Pentax is fine amateur equipment, same as Leica (for 40 years). Neither are professional equipment, though both can serve.

Enjoy Pentax for what it is. Stop worrying about Nikon/Canon...they're irrelevant and Pentax isn't even trying to compete against them, with their wannabe-pro schtick.

I bought my K20D specifically because I couldn't afford Leica M8..with pancakes, Pentax is more like Leica (and it out-performs Leica) than it is like Canon or Nikon.

Lets see, if I think of Pentax the way I think of Toyota, I really have to wonder where Pentax's Formula1 high performance division is? You do realize that Toyota has one of the winningest racing teams in motorsports do you?
Fourty years ago, Pentax was the camera of choice for National Geographic photographers, and was a well respected professional marque. They haven't carefully cultivated a fine reputation among amateurs over the past 4 decades, they have spent that time pissing away their reputation to the point that now, very few new customers even consider the brand.
You can be as disparaging as you like about "wannabe-pro schtick", but that schtick is the stuff that sells equipment, and selling equipment is what gives a company the income stream to develop new products, and ultimately to stay in business.
Pentax cannot content themselves with being at the back of the pack any longer. They did it for decades, with the end result being near bankruptcy and at best a semi friendly (or at least not too unfriendly) takeover by a much larger company. If they continue to ignore what is in their best interests, Hoya will drop them like a dirty Kleenex, and they won't look back.
Don't forget, Hoya wanted the medical division, not the camera division, it just came along for the ride, and could easily turn into an unwelcome passenger if it doesn't buy it's share of the gas.
I don't worry about Canon or Nikon, they are doing just fine, thank you very much, putting cutting edge equipment onto the market.
I do worry about Pentax though. If they aren't competing with the big boys in the marketplace, they won't be in the marketplace for much longer.

07-29-2008, 09:47 AM   #39
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[QUOTE=Wheatfield;304010]
QuoteOriginally posted by janosh Quote
You can be as disparaging as you like about "wannabe-pro schtick", but that schtick is the stuff that sells equipment, and selling equipment is what gives a company the income stream to develop new products, and ultimately to stay in business.
You are absolutely right! I'm in manufacturing for a living and your top-end products are what drive the technology for your future base products. Nikon and Canon have starry-eyed pro models pulling up the models that are competing with the K20D. The K20D is Pentax's starry-eyed model. There is nothing pulling it up except concepts or following Canikon's lead.

The only advantage Pentax has is they have a clean slate. There are no expectations for the next version of their mid-level models like there are for Nikon and Canon. Unfortunately, this puts Nikon and Canon in a better position to drive future technology putting Pentax much more on the defensive.
07-29-2008, 10:59 AM   #40
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[QUOTE=Wheatfield;304010]
QuoteOriginally posted by janosh Quote


Lets see, if I think of Pentax the way I think of Toyota, I really have to wonder where Pentax's Formula1 high performance division is? You do realize that Toyota has one of the winningest racing teams in motorsports do you?
Don't forget, Hoya wanted the medical division, not the camera division, it just came along for the ride, and could easily turn into an unwelcome passenger if it doesn't buy it's share of the gas.
I don't worry about Canon or Nikon, they are doing just fine, thank you very much, putting cutting edge equipment onto the market.
I do worry about Pentax though. If they aren't competing with the big boys in the marketplace, they won't be in the marketplace for much longer.
Wheatfield,

As for Toyota's record in Formula 1 you can look here for your self: The Official Formula 1 Website They are by far the least achievers of all big teams with mega budgets. In fact they NEVER won a race in Formula 1 in 6 1/2 seasons. And this is the ironic part of your analogy. Toyota may have great results in american racing (technicaly inferior to F1) or rally or what ever but when it comes to beating the best it's ... pathetic.

About what Hoya wants your guess is as good as mine I suposse. And mine is that Hoya wants to sell as many premium lenses with stars or Limited on them to us rather than sell it's optical glass to others ... They will invest money to do that as seen in this year and maybe the future is not as bleak or predefined as you may seem to think.

Radu
07-29-2008, 11:06 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
I've heard a number of complaints from Americans regarding rebates in the USA. Apparently the company that handles the rebates often appears to be in the business of refusing to honour the rebates rather than sending out the cheques.
The ultimate turn-off for a customer is to buy something with a rebate and then have the rebate tossed out because of some technicality.
No problems here with 5-6 Pentax rebates ranging over 18 months. They always pay off. I'd rather just have a lower price, but I'll certainly take advantage of them.
07-29-2008, 11:08 AM   #42
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[QUOTE=RaduA;304060]
QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Toyota may have great results in american racing (technicaly inferior to F1) or rally or what ever but when it comes to beating the best it's ... pathetic.

Ahhh....geez man! You just lost all my respect. Why make such a statement? Should we start comparing American football to world football (soccer)? It's apples and oranges! Both are great but neither is techinically "inferior".

At least Toyota is competing and they are benefiting technologically because of it.

Last edited by navcom; 07-29-2008 at 11:18 AM.
07-29-2008, 11:23 AM   #43
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[QUOTE=RaduA;304060]
QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote


but when it comes to beating the best it's ... pathetic.



Radu
Well, that about sums up the Pentax to Toyota comparison nicely, doesn't it?

If Hoya wants to sell glass, they need a strong camera base to do it with. That means a top model that is playing on the same field as the best of the competition.
Without that, the other teams are going to pull potential customers away from Pentax, along with the potential sales of lenses.
07-29-2008, 11:39 AM   #44
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[QUOTE=navcom;304066]
QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote


Ahhh....geez man! You just lost all my respect. Why make such a statement? Should we start comparing American football to world football (soccer)? It's apples and oranges! Both are great but neither is techinically "inferior".

At least Toyota is competing and they are benefiting technologically because of it.
Navcom,

No offence I hope but the pinnacle of motorsport (being more of an international competition) for the rest of the world except USA it's Formula 1. And you're right F1 and Indy, Cart whatever are apples and oranges (more so because many american circuits are ovals or city) unlike in F1 and BOTH are the highest form of motorsport but my point was that Weatfield specifically said FORMULA 1. And Toyota's record in F1 it's pretty abysmal.

BTW, I find american football more spectacular than soccer
Radu
07-29-2008, 12:02 PM   #45
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r)? It's apples and oranges! Both are great but neither is techinically "inferior".

At least Toyota is competing and they are benefiting technologically because of it.[/QUOTE]


Toyota primarily makes automobiles, not toys.

Toyotas are mechanically higher quality (best in virtually any adult measure, especially reliability and on-the-road performance) than any of the "high performance" toys.

We just drove a Prius @ 70-80mph for 2.000miles @ 41-51mpg (measured, not just the dashboard readout). Total comfort, near silence, road-hugging, cool air @ external 90-116f (Needles CA). You can't come close to that with any other vehicle, save perhaps Honda's newest. My Toyota Rav4 goes 110 mph, gets 28mpg on the highway at 70mph, is FOUR WHEEL DRIVE and like Prius has exceptional crash test survivability.

Toyota is the ultimate automobile. It's smarter to compare Pentax to something of such superb engineering and manufacturing quality than it is to compare it to short-lived, under-performing F1 w****r toys that can't even carry a cooler with ice, wine, and cheese, nor several friends and a superb sound system.
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