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07-29-2008, 12:16 PM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by janosh Quote
Toyota primarily makes automobiles, not toys.
Toyotas are mechanically higher quality (best in virtually any adult measure, especially reliability and on-the-road performance) than any of the "high performance" toys.
People claim the same about Honda, but their quality and reliability is way down, even if American confidence keeps resale up.

At the same time, there are quality American vehicles.

I own a Jeep Patriot, which is a non-hybrid SUV that gets 31mpg.
It uses a CVT and a 4-cylinder engine with 172hp and 172 ft-lbs of torque.

Probably the most undermarketed vehicle of all time.
I've never had a problem with Jeep reliability (parent Chrysler is another story).

07-29-2008, 12:19 PM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote

Well, that about sums up the Pentax to Toyota comparison nicely, doesn't it?

If Hoya wants to sell glass, they need a strong camera base to do it with. That means a top model that is playing on the same field as the best of the competition.
Without that, the other teams are going to pull potential customers away from Pentax, along with the potential sales of lenses.
Nope, it doesn't. If there is a company good for this Toyota comparation this must be Sony. Which has of money, brand awareness, A TOP MODEL in A700, many medium models and it's still nowhere. Why? Because it lacks a dirt cheap model for youngsters, first time after p&s-ers, soccer moms and dads, hobbists and even professionals to buy as a second body. This is why Canon sells 1000D because for many 450D it's too expensive and esentially an overkill.


I guess you have a professional vision but I see the market from it's bottom. Nikon begun it's revival with the humble D40 a year before they had D300 or D3. Yes, you may say but they already had pro bodies and stuff but the D200 wasn't THAT much far away from K10D and the other models ridiculously expensive.
Ok, but D40 was the most sold DSLR in Japan from all countries a super developed country and this humble camera and it's 10Mp sibling the D40X turned in many countries the share market from Canon to them. And D40 it's a camera build with low cost in mind (and I rate K100D way better). But it was small, worked with the kit lens and produced nice jpegs with pleasant colors. That was all needed.

I tell you what let's see what kind of camera K2000D will be and let's talk in a year's time and with some numbers on the table. I tell you if Pentax is to be resurected the K2000D will be far more important for it's future than anything in the past or in it's close future including semi pro of FF cameras!

I know for a fact that here at least it will be THE LEAST EXPENSIVE DSLR which knowing the price driven market means for me a lot of share market, then buzz and brand awareness then upgrades and more.

Sorry for my rant by not many can afford the latest and greatest and this is my final conclusion: K2000D it's the make or break camera for Pentax.

Radu

Last edited by wlank; 07-29-2008 at 07:32 PM.
07-29-2008, 12:20 PM   #48
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...in other words, Pentax should carve its own path, should ignore the prosumer competition that focuses on that pretend-professional track...and I think it's doing that.

Given that photo and journalism schools advocate Nikon and Canon exclusively, and given that pros have virtually never used 35mm Pentax at any time in history (save for that National Geographic allegation), and given that Canon and Nikon have been making Pentax-equal (at least) lenses for a loooong time, why would anybody switch to Pentax? I chose it because I couldn't afford a digital Leica and because K20D is better in most respects...but professionals hardly ever use Leica and few would switch to Pentax. K20D equals D300 in most respects but not D700 (or 5D, according to some), nor should it bother to try.

Leica is Pentax's best target of opportunity IMO. Its APS, has a decent little market that demands high quality and will pay high prices.

Pentax should drop rebates completely...rebates were a dumb idea...they announce desperation.

Pentax may have been a National Geographic choice 40 years ago (I think instead that it was Leica and Nikon, as in Vietnam), but it certainly wasn't 35 years ago.
07-29-2008, 12:31 PM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by bjsmith Quote
People claim the same about Honda, but their quality and reliability is way down, even if American confidence keeps resale up.

At the same time, there are quality American vehicles.

I own a Jeep Patriot, which is a non-hybrid SUV that gets 31mpg.
It uses a CVT and a 4-cylinder engine with 172hp and 172 ft-lbs of torque.

Probably the most undermarketed vehicle of all time.
I've never had a problem with Jeep reliability (parent Chrysler is another story).
Here, where people often actually use their 4WD on bad roads, Jeeps are mostly around-town vehicles, like my Toyotas. Toyota RAV4 isn't nearly as far-off-road rugged/capable as Jeep Patriot, though it can go virtually anywhere on bad roads.

The diesel Patriot was considered (mileage) when I bought my 4WD Toyota, but diesel fuel is a LOT more expensive than gasoline today. As well, there's the highway speed and noise/comfort factor that I mentioned...Patriot's noisy and uncomfortable compared to RAV4. Drive a Patriot 1000miles at 70-80 and let's compare notes :-)

07-29-2008, 02:22 PM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote

I tell you what let's see what kind of camera K2000D will be and let's talk in a year's time and with some numbers on the table. I tell you if Pentax is to be resurected the K2000D will be far more important for it's future than anything in the past or in it's close future including semi pro of FF cameras!

I know for a fact that here at least it will be THE LEAST EXPENSIVE DSLR which knowing the price driven market means for me a lot of share market, then buzz and brand awareness then upgrades and more.

Radu

QuoteOriginally posted by janosh Quote
...in other words, Pentax should carve its own path, should ignore the prosumer competition that focuses on that pretend-professional track...and I think it's doing that.

Leica is Pentax's best target of opportunity IMO. Its APS, has a decent little market that demands high quality and will pay high prices.
Congrats to both of you for coming up with game plans that would work. To bad Pentax can't and won't follow either one of them.

Radu,
Pentax has never been know for it's efficient manufacturing ability and that is what you need to be successful in the low end market . Hoya has done a lot to correct that but they have also mandated that Pentax be very profitable and margins are always small on budget models. Because of this I think you will find the entry level unit, if they bring one out, will be priced a little above the competing Nikon and Canon models.

Janose,
Nice market position. If this is where Pentax wants to be they would have made the new K20D senor 12MP instead of 14. That would have given them the best high ISO camera on the market instead of one being just class average. Instead they took what Samsung offered because they have no R & D money. The lack of having the R & D funds will prevent them from coming out with that high resolution, low noise APC unit that would make so much sense.

Pentax is in a very nasty spot. Hoya has basically said, "Make a profit and no you can't have any additional funds." They are at the mercy of Samsung to give them a sensor to work with and it is apparent their interest is in a high MP FF sensor so that is what Pentax has to work with. They might be able to dumb down the K200D somewhat and produce an entry level unit but will be hard pressed to reach the pricepoint Canon and Nikon will have this fall.

The marketing department in the U.S. at least is still living in the 20th century so don't expect to see any imaginative campaign coming any timie soon. Hoya just dumped the Pentax printing division so there are no guarantes they will keep the cameras if they don't turn a profit.
07-29-2008, 03:18 PM   #51
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If this is where Pentax wants to be they would have made the new K20D senor 12MP instead of 14. That would have given them the best high ISO camera on the market instead of one being just class average. "

What does "class average" mean? Prosumer? I think you're mistaken. It's tied with D300 for most purposes, better than Nikon from an amateur's perspective (IS, prime pancakes etc).


...and...have you actually USED one? Head and shoulders above K10D, not to mention K200D.


At anywhere near the price, Pentax K20D is the class LEADER, especially when you consider the unrivaled array of prime lenses.

Canon doesn't equal it in any prosumer APS, only Nikon D300 does that. I'm not impressed that 5D is better, despite being full frame.


"... took what Samsung offered because they have no R & D money. The lack of having the R & D funds will prevent them from coming out with that high resolution, low noise APC unit that would make so much sense. "

Pentax K20D has a Samsung chip specifically BECAUSE it's the best existing APS chip.

Mine's astounding...acceptably low noise at 1600iso (my "user" setting), more than OK for many uses at 3200... as reports show, it equals D300.

Last edited by janosh; 07-29-2008 at 03:24 PM.
07-29-2008, 04:36 PM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by janosh Quote
If this is where Pentax wants to be they would have made the new K20D senor 12MP instead of 14. That would have given them the best high ISO camera on the market instead of one being just class average. "

What does "class average" mean? Prosumer? I think you're mistaken. It's tied with D300 for most purposes, better than Nikon from an amateur's perspective (IS, prime pancakes etc).


...and...have you actually USED one? Head and shoulders above K10D, not to mention K200D.


At anywhere near the price, Pentax K20D is the class LEADER, especially when you consider the unrivaled array of prime lenses.

Canon doesn't equal it in any prosumer APS, only Nikon D300 does that. I'm not impressed that 5D is better, despite being full frame.


"... took what Samsung offered because they have no R & D money. The lack of having the R & D funds will prevent them from coming out with that high resolution, low noise APC unit that would make so much sense. "

Pentax K20D has a Samsung chip specifically BECAUSE it's the best existing APS chip.

Mine's astounding...acceptably low noise at 1600iso (my "user" setting), more than OK for many uses at 3200... as reports show, it equals D300.
Gee dude, take a chill pill. Let's be honest here, OK? The D300 is cleaner at high ISO numbers and one of the reasons for that is the Samsung chip is 14 MP instead of 12MP. That was a Samsung decision, not Pentaxes. Yes the K20D is a great camera but it is not a leader in any specific area. I am agreeing with you that Pentax should follow their own path and that should be one of better resolution and low noise. I am pointing out that if they were not dependent on Samsung to give them the sensor they could have come closer to what they need to be by making it a 12 MP rather than push the MP count.

By the way, they didn't CHOOSE the Samsung sensor, it was their only alternative other than the Sony 10MP CCD sensor.
07-29-2008, 06:29 PM   #53
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[QUOTE=regken;304291]Gee dude, take a chill pill. Let's be honest here, OK? The D300 is cleaner at high ISO numbers and one of the reasons for that is the Samsung chip is 14 MP instead of 12MP.

I think you're talking pure Internet chatroom theory, not photography.

I doubt you've personally printed a 13X19 from a partial section of K20D file. I think you've missed the unique noise reduction advantage in Samsung's chip. If it was 12mp it might have less noise in very large prints, but do you make them and would it be perceptible if you did? I do, and while I doubt I could discern 12mp from 14.6 I enjoy knowing that Pentax's 14.6 is an advertising advantage along with measurable detail resolution advantage...and that will help Pentax survive in the market.


"... it is not a leader in any specific area. "

That's wildly wrong..It's the value leader among rugged, dust and moisture resistant, remarkably high resolution cameras ... and it offers lenses that are better, both optically and mechanically, than Nikon or Canon in the pancakes.

What passionate photographer would buy a Pentax and then resort to film lenses and zooms, forgetting the pancakes? That'd make sense with Nikon or Canon, but with Pentax?

Neither Canon nor Nikon nor Sony come close to Pentax in those combined respects. Reviews, for what they're worth, put K20D at D300's noise level...not bad for a $1000 camera.


Last edited by janosh; 07-29-2008 at 06:36 PM.
07-29-2008, 06:43 PM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by regken Quote
Congrats to both of you for coming up with game plans that would work. To bad Pentax can't and won't follow either one of them.

Radu,
Pentax has never been know for it's efficient manufacturing ability and that is what you need to be successful in the low end market . Hoya has done a lot to correct that but they have also mandated that Pentax be very profitable and margins are always small on budget models. Because of this I think you will find the entry level unit, if they bring one out, will be priced a little above the competing Nikon and Canon models.


The marketing department in the U.S. at least is still living in the 20th century so don't expect to see any imaginative campaign coming any timie soon. Hoya just dumped the Pentax printing division so there are no guarantes they will keep the cameras if they don't turn a profit.
Ken,

It happens that I know the price of the new K2000D and some technical data. And you'll see latter this year if my data is correct or not but right now it's the least expensive DSLR on the market. And pls note that the Canon and Nikon tend to have stabilised kit lens which increase their prices after all a first time buyer it's more than likely to choose a kit not just the body. Also my sources tells me that Hoya pumps money into Pentax and some results are starting to appear (see the fleury of new lenses launched this year). Here (in Romania) the K200D sells better than any Pentax model in the past and in generaly in Europe the market share and brand awareness seems to be better than in US. Hopefully Ned will turn things for the better there too.

And "the old Pentax" wasn't known for efficiency period but this could be changed in the Hoya rule. And remember "Pentax" now it's just a brand name and even if some divisions are to be sold I think Hoya first will make them as "pretty" as possible. Finally I always stated that Hoya's interest in Pentax resides mainly in the expensive lenses (high margins there) they can sell to ... us
So they could even take a hit on the cameras for a while in the attempt to increase the market share and the number sold worldwide.

Radu

P.S. I very probably buy a K2000D myself as a second, light body especialy to use with my primes and I guess many here will do the same. For me the deal breaker is the SR, if it doesn't have it I am not interested. And I suspect many guys with some small limiteds will also buy a new camera instead of a used one.
07-29-2008, 07:01 PM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
Ken,


P.S. I very probably buy a K2000D myself as a second, light body especialy to use with my primes and I guess many here will do the same. For me the deal breaker is the SR, if it doesn't have it I am not interested. And I suspect many guys with some small limiteds will also buy a new camera instead of a used one.
Radu.

Hope you are right, If you are and it is light and small I'll be one of the first in line. I'd even buy a pancake lens or two so that I could qualify as a passionate photographer like Janosh.
07-30-2008, 06:05 AM   #56
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Another thing that works against the Pentax brand is the Samsung GX models which are identical clones of the Pentax Models - but more affordable

Pentax does not have a strong brand awareness - dare I say that Samsung has far greater thus effectively chipping away at market share for Pentax.

There are no clones for the other brands?

Why did Pentax allow this?

A trade off to get the Samsung chips at much reduced price's - I wonder?

D
07-30-2008, 06:23 AM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by dylansalt Quote
Another thing that works against the Pentax brand is the Samsung GX models which are identical clones of the Pentax Models - but more affordable

Pentax does not have a strong brand awareness - dare I say that Samsung has far greater thus effectively chipping away at market share for Pentax.

There are no clones for the other brands?

Why did Pentax allow this?

A trade off to get the Samsung chips at much reduced price's - I wonder?

D
I'm guessing it was a trade off to get much needed R&D money a few years ago when the company was on the ropes and trying to stay alive.
They made a deal with the devil, and now they have to live with it.
07-30-2008, 08:18 AM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by dylansalt Quote
Another thing that works against the Pentax brand is the Samsung GX models which are identical clones of the Pentax Models - but more affordable

Pentax does not have a strong brand awareness - dare I say that Samsung has far greater thus effectively chipping away at market share for Pentax.

There are no clones for the other brands?

Why did Pentax allow this?

A trade off to get the Samsung chips at much reduced price's - I wonder?

D
I really don't know about other markets but here Pentax outsells Samsung in DSLRs by 5 to 1. Most of the time people tend to say "why do you wanna have Samsung on your DSLR?" and this is mostly because Samsung sells loads of small cameras and it's not exclusive enough. More than that the availlability of Samsung DSLRs is very poor and the price differential neglijable against similar Pentax models. I doubt that there is another market except Koreea and maybe some other asian countries were Samsung outsells Pentax.
And about brand awareness Pentax is much less known here than Canon or Nikon but people tends to be receptive about it's history and japanese background and most of the time the quality of it's products speaks for itself.
Prices at a major romanian etailler as of today: Aparate foto D-SLR Samsung, Pentax

Pentax kit: 982 Euro (Incl VAT), available in limited amounts in stock
Samsung kit: 1066 Euro (incl VAT), available after an order.

Radu

Last edited by RaduA; 05-14-2009 at 07:03 AM.
07-31-2008, 06:34 AM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
I'm guessing it was a trade off to get much needed R&D money a few years ago when the company was on the ropes and trying to stay alive.
They made a deal with the devil, and now they have to live with it.
Just like their partnership with Tokina.
It's very difficult to fund R&D and pay for fabrication on your own these days.
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