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11-19-2016, 12:01 PM   #61
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I don't do any post processing, except for cropping. Yes, I'm hopeless with computers.

However with each Pentax body that I have, right after purchase, I've adjusted the ' in camera' sharpness, contrast, etc. I use JPEG either 3 or 4, depending on my camera body...whatever it is, it's the maximum setting for JPEG. I also use my hand held Sekonic L398 light meter for most of my close up photos.

I don't do a lot of comparisons with other cameras , but mu stuff seems ok with me.

Maybe I just have low standards.

11-19-2016, 02:19 PM   #62
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JPEGs use lossy (unrecoverable) compression. For me the choice is more pragmatic than color and tone rendition.

Having said that Pentax cameras have a nice feature allowing you to save the last image's RAW data at the push of a button. At least the K-50 does.
11-19-2016, 04:47 PM   #63
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Sometimes ooc jpeg is the right solution, at least for news that needs to go out right away and when it's not ethical to process much. Here's a pro saying she uses ooc jpeg for news about sports How to shoot News Pictures - Red Bull Illume - YouTube Now I guess some may also keep raw files for their portfolio.
11-19-2016, 08:07 PM - 1 Like   #64
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I'm just glad they used prints! I would love to have seen an advanced compact into the mix (e.g., RX100).

I often use in-camera conversion (Pentax, Fuji, Ricoh) or RAW+JPG (Panasonic) to see what the colours come out like. In the case of the Panasonic (which may come as a surprise), and the Fuji, I am frequently shocked at how good they are. With Fuji, if you back off the sharpness in camera, and apply to the JPG in LR, you are often done.

Two comments:
Lenses affect colour. Don't really know what they used.
Per comment elsewhere, selecting the applicable profile (e.g., "Portrait", or "Velvia", or even frankly auto mode, which would have selected these) may have changed the outcome significantly for each scenario.

Fun comparison, and I think it generated some buzz. The comment about the minor differences is valid - all modern cameras can take a really good shot.

---------- Post added 11-19-2016 at 10:09 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
I seldom shoot JPEG, but when I have, that has not been my experience.



Seeing the full spread of images on the video, I was surprised at how close the cameras were to each other. As mentioned above, I generally shoot RAW, but in one specific situation, the in-camera JPEG was superior to what I could do with the RAW in Lightroom. See below from the K10D:



No out-of-camera processing.



Steve
I miss that CCD sensor at ISO 100 (in my case from the K200d). Stunning colours, as you have well and truly demonstrated!

11-20-2016, 03:07 AM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
These are just some snaps with in camera jpeg, but I thought they were pretty decent quality. Would they have been better with RAW and post processing? Maybe so, but I was on vacation and didn't want to spend too much time processing images after this trip.



First off I agree with those that say 'all that matters is that you are happy with the results'. They obviously suit what you wanted to achieve and that's great. My opinion on them is of no consequence...

With that in mind, I hope you don't take offence when I say that those images are a perfect example of what I don't like about Pentax JPEGs - to my eyes they are rather flat and lacklustre. If I had that in RAW in LR I would instantly be reaching for the contrast, clarity and saturation sliders before I did anything else.
11-20-2016, 03:38 AM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by victormeldrew Quote
First off I agree with those that say 'all that matters is that you are happy with the results'. They obviously suit what you wanted to achieve and that's great. My opinion on them is of no consequence...

With that in mind, I hope you don't take offence when I say that those images are a perfect example of what I don't like about Pentax JPEGs - to my eyes they are rather flat and lacklustre. If I had that in RAW in LR I would instantly be reaching for the contrast, clarity and saturation sliders before I did anything else.
Perhaps. I don't like that look though. If I did, I would shoot in Bright mode and bump up the fine sharpness and saturation sliders more. But the Natural setting works best for me, in general.

Be that as it may, I have a hard time judging jpeg engines when most modern cameras have the ability to adjust what the jpeg engine actually does.
11-20-2016, 03:53 AM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
most modern cameras have the ability to adjust what the jpeg engine actually does.
They always did, of course...it's just that early cameras were preset by the manufacturer and later cameras allow the user more input. Sensors do not make jpegs, they make RAWs and then process it for you automatically. By offering parameters they give some semblence of control, but still only in a preset destructive manner, unlike manual (RAW) processing.
11-20-2016, 07:24 AM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by victormeldrew Quote
They always did, of course...it's just that early cameras were preset by the manufacturer and later cameras allow the user more input. Sensors do not make jpegs, they make RAWs and then process it for you automatically. By offering parameters they give some semblence of control, but still only in a preset destructive manner, unlike manual (RAW) processing.
Or, to take the other position (assuming print output), a format suitable for immediate use. Which you could argue is what you are getting out of post-processing a RAW.

11-20-2016, 09:09 AM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by StephenHampshire Quote
... My gripe with Pentax is the daft "dual use focus select wb/jpeg/shooting mode/flash buttons on the K5 and K3 mean that I keep changing JPEG parameters when I am trying to select focus points!!!!!!
I keep the camera set to focus point select only and then toggle on the 4-way controller if I want to use those... Make changes to whatever it is and then toggle back to focus point select. I don't often use the things the 4-way controller.. controls so this keeps me from screwing up too much.

---------- Post added 11-20-16 at 10:13 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Heie Quote
Owning a DSLR to shoot JPEG is like owning an espresso machine to boil water for your instant coffee...
I suspect the comment was made to enjoy the reactions from other members but I will play :^)

As far as SLR being a coffee machine to boil water... I might agree with the analogy if it was not about only SLR but was about buying larger format sensors to boil water. There is nothing inherently superior about an APS-C SLR vs APS-C mirrorless. There are choices to make between the two and, really, the illuminating coffee comment could apply to Fuji APS-C cameras as well...

Personally, I think buying an espresso machine to make coffee without using your own grinder is a waste. Which file format could that be :^)
11-20-2016, 05:05 PM - 3 Likes   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by pierovitch Quote
Coincidence how the outcome favours models with favourable profit margins and sales volumes for the dealer? Tough for dealers in a declining market.
First, this was a blind test, which was specified numerous times in the video.

Secondly, more popular lines tend to have much lower margins, as they are generally easier to sell. Less popular brands typically have higher margins, to make it worthwhile for stores to continue to stock them.

Finally, I find it abrasive that you would immediately suspect us of stacking the deck against your chosen brand. Working for TCS, I think one of the reasons we're still doing well in a declining market is that we do try to match a photographer's needs and shooting style to right gear. That's why we continue to sell a good amount of Pentax, and always have. Also, TCSTV is one of the few YouTube channels that consistently tries to check out new Pentax/Ricoh gear. The store has no editorial control over our content,they just access to pretty much any gear we need for testing, and support us on social media.

Last edited by TCSJordan; 11-20-2016 at 08:17 PM.
11-21-2016, 05:58 AM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by TCSJordan Quote
First, this was a blind test, which was specified numerous times in the video.

Secondly, more popular lines tend to have much lower margins, as they are generally easier to sell. Less popular brands typically have higher margins, to make it worthwhile for stores to continue to stock them.

Finally, I find it abrasive that you would immediately suspect us of stacking the deck against your chosen brand. Working for TCS, I think one of the reasons we're still doing well in a declining market is that we do try to match a photographer's needs and shooting style to right gear. That's why we continue to sell a good amount of Pentax, and always have. Also, TCSTV is one of the few YouTube channels that consistently tries to check out new Pentax/Ricoh gear. The store has no editorial control over our content,they just access to pretty much any gear we need for testing, and support us on social media.
I'm not the target of your comment, but fair enough, and thanks for commenting here.

Personally, while I no longer shoot much Pentax, I do appreciate that you do review a wide variety of cameras (I still chuckle, thinking over the Sigma Merrill review). Increasingly, also the video portion.

Cheers for the shootout, as above, I think it was fun and generated buzz. Any comments about printers used, lenses (looked like standard kit lenses)?
11-21-2016, 07:23 AM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by TCSJordan Quote
... Finally, I find it abrasive that ...
Please don't let such comments get to you. I believe, except for a few, the community at large here has been largely supportive of the coverage you've given Pentax. I'm a regular viewer of your Youtube channel, and not just for Pentax products reviews. Even on this thread, the discussion has largely not been about TCS or methodology, but rather on RAW vrs JPG and how to tweak the camera's JPG engine for better JPGs.

BTW, I think that this last topic - tutorials or tips on in-camera JPG development options from various manufacturers - would be a good idea for a video. It's an under-documented area, IMHO, with most people either using the default JPG camera files (as in your test), or doing RAW development on a computer (a topic for which there are gazillions of instructional vids). For instance, how many people know you can ask the Pentax JPG engine to recover shadows for you? Or to correct much more strongly for tungsten light?

Anyway, thanks for the TCS Youtube channel, and your frank coverage of Pentax (and other brands)!
11-21-2016, 11:48 AM   #73
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They might be right however I shot part of this show in all JPEG with my K3 and I was surprised at how nice they turned out. I changed the settings back to RAW for the next show and they turned out well too.

K3 JPEG ISO 5000

Susy Sun
by John Rudolph, on Flickr


Susy Sun
by John Rudolph, on Flickr

Same night Carbon Leaf shot in RAW and much darker

Carbon Leaf
by John Rudolph, on Flickr

Last edited by john5100; 11-21-2016 at 11:54 AM.
11-22-2016, 06:11 AM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by TCSJordan Quote
First, this was a blind test, which was specified numerous times in the video.

Secondly, more popular lines tend to have much lower margins, as they are generally easier to sell. Less popular brands typically have higher margins, to make it worthwhile for stores to continue to stock them.

Finally, I find it abrasive that you would immediately suspect us of stacking the deck against your chosen brand. Working for TCS, I think one of the reasons we're still doing well in a declining market is that we do try to match a photographer's needs and shooting style to right gear. That's why we continue to sell a good amount of Pentax, and always have. Also, TCSTV is one of the few YouTube channels that consistently tries to check out new Pentax/Ricoh gear. The store has no editorial control over our content,they just access to pretty much any gear we need for testing, and support us on social media.


My apologies for an undeserved remark. I have enjoyed your work but did not understand your level of editorial independence. Refreshing to find higher motives than shifting stock.


11-22-2016, 07:47 AM - 1 Like   #75
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I wonder whether we could pick a good in-camera jpeg from a line-up including post-processed-from-raw images of the same subject? Would somebody who does both like to post such a line-up which might stump us? Obviously, we'd have to rely on the honesty of the poster to provide what s/he thinks are good quality images of both types.

Such a test would raise the question: If we can't tell the difference in the result, what does it matter which approach a photographer takes if the results are good.

Also, it could be that some photographers are better at taking in-camera jpegs than they are in post-processing similar images from raw files, so that their better pictures always come from the in-camera processing.

Remember, in ye olde film dayse, some people could really nail the exposure when taking slides, which always got processed the same way at the lab (with the exception of say push-processing high speed Ectachrome and maybe some other less-common cases). Other's (usually including me) preferred negative film, which compared to shooting slides amounted to working with a net, because various exposure issues could be corrected or compensated for when going from the negative to the print. If you learn to shoot really good in-camera jpegs, maybe you would have been a slide shooter. If you must have the ability to tinker to your heart's content between what came out of the camera and the final result, you could only have shot negative film and would have been driven nuts by a poorly shot roll of slide film.
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