[Kunzite]

The K-mount has a future as long as we keep buying K-mount products.

Mirrorless is not the future. Mirrorless is present, along DSLRs. A smaller part of the present, I may add, and they're not exactly gaining.

Last but not least, Ricoh Imaging entering the large sensor mirrorless market (which, again, is not the subject of the thread) will IMHO likely be done in a similar manner with Canon: dedicated mount, keep focus on DSLRs because that's your source of income and gradually build a MILC user base without giving up on your existing (DSLR) one.

[peterh337]

Sorry to ask a dumb Q but can someone explain why the K mount would not work on mirrorless?

[Kunzite]

Oh, it would definitely work - it did, on the K-01, right? But it would put Pentax at a disadvantage.
The problem is - you'd have a large, empty, unused space in your camera. That means your cameras will be larger than they could - all of them, not only pro-level products designed to be used with larger lenses, but also entry level models which would be used with collapsible and pancake lenses.
That's not all: your wide angle lenses will still be larger and slower (because they need to leave room for that empty space), and now there would be no reason for that. With DSLRs, you had the mirror; with a MILC? Air. No chance of getting a 23 f/1.4 that's reasonably compact, high quality, and affordable.

P.S. I'm aware that special lenses could protrude inside the mount and reclaim part of that unused space; this isn't ideal either. I believe that would put limits on the protruding elements' diameter.

[Rondec]

Sorry to ask a dumb Q but can someone explain why the K mount would not work on mirrorless?

It could, as Kunzite says. But the point of mirrorless seems to be several fold -- smaller cameras (you can only get a little smaller while keeping the same registration distance), smaller wide angle lenses (this happens because the registration distance is shorter and wouldn't happen if you keep the k mount), and the ability to mount "any lens available" (this doesn't happen if you keep the k mount because the registration distance is too long to mount most of the odd lenses that folks are breaking out for their Sony FE mount cameras). The only point to doing such an exercise would be to appease folks who like EVFs better than pentaprism OVFs and while there are some who are rabidly in favor of one versus the other, I think most people don't really care that much.

[peterh337]

OK; thanks.

Don't get me wrong... I love the K1 (except for the size and weight) and had a very close look at the entire mirrorless scene a few months ago (regardless of cost) including playing with actual cameras. And I go back to 1975 with film...

But, as an electronics engineer, if I was Pentax I would be flat out developing a mirrorless K mount camera, because IMHO Sony will eventually eat everybody's lunch. You can bet anything they are developing decent viewfinders, fast focus, fast frame rates, global shutter (so you don't get the silly rolling shutter effects)... they obviously are selling the $3000 top-end A7 bodies so this is not an entry-level technology.

As regards the lens protruding into the camera, Tamron were doing that in the 1970s with a load of their lenses.

[Kunzite]

Why a mirrorless K mount camera? This would happen: Compare camera dimensions side by side
And this: Compact Camera Meter (yes, the Fujifilm lens is faster!)
It's not a long term solution.

Besides, Pentax have to keep us - the current, DSLR-loving userbase - happy and spending. Don't forget, the DSLR market is about 2.8 times as large as the MILC one, and the MILCs aren't really gaining. In a declining market, it would be suicide to upset your current users...

Speaking of Sony - their hybrid cameras (SLTs, EVF with SLR mount) aren't doing well and I expect them to be phased out. The A7 you're mentioning has, of course, a dedicated MILC mount.

By lens protruding into the camera, I rather mean what Pentax had in mind as dedicated K-mount lenses to go with the K-01. The following image (sorry for its size) is an actual prototype presented in 2012 (but which didn't made into the market).

[reh321]

Why a mirrorless K mount camera? This would happen: Compare camera dimensions side by side
And this: Compact Camera Meter (yes, the Fujifilm lens is faster!)
It's not a long term solution.market).

I have absolutely no idea what these comparisons are supposed to prove. People here spend way too much time focusing on Fuji - the company they should be watching is Canon.

This is similar to focusing on Commodore in the early days of micro-computing - IBM was always the one that mattered to Apple, not Commodore or Radio Shack or Atari. IBM's first PC is what tipped things in the direction of micro-computing. "Big Iron" is still a thing in computing, but "small iron" is what we see as consumers. Two years ago when I was still a Canon user, something like the EOS-M5 is what Canon users were looking for. It is finally here. I'm not sure how its capabilities compare to other Canons, and that is what will tell whether their pricing is reasonable.

Besides, Pentax have to keep us - the current, DSLR-loving userbase - happy and spending. Don't forget, the DSLR market is about 2.8 times as large as the MILC one, and the MILCs aren't really gaining. In a declining market, it would be suicide to upset your current users...

Canon is not abandoning their current DSLR users, just as they haven't abandoned their compact camera or point-and-shoot users. There is no reason to expect Pentax to abandon any users as long as those users don't abandon them, but if we do reach a tipping point, those users will abandon APS-C DSLR cameras, and they will abandon Pentax if Pentax doesn't have a product for them.

[Kunzite]

I have absolutely no idea what these comparisons are supposed to prove.

Size differences.
People will continue to be too focused on Fujifilm (and believe all their marketing blurb), so they'll continue to blame Pentax for not making wide angle lenses as small and fast as Fujifilm. They're doing that right now.

Canon is not abandoning their current DSLR users, just as they haven't abandoned their compact camera or point-and-shoot users. There is no reason to expect Pentax to abandon any users as long as those users don't abandon them, but if we do reach a tipping point, those users will abandon APS-C DSLR cameras, and they will abandon Pentax if Pentax doesn't have a product for them.

And I believe that Ricoh Imaging will properly enter the large sensor mirrorless market in a manner similar to Canon's. But, what does it mean? Launching a dedicated MILC system (with it's own, short registration lens) while continuing to develop & maintain their mainstream DSLR system. Don't go all out with MILCs at the expense of the DSLRs. Don't try some weird contraptions like Sony did with their SLTs and other failed experiments. Start slow, have a few good products and build an user base on that - while continuing to serve the needs of your DSLR user base.

[Clarkey]

Size differences.
People will continue to be too focused on Fujifilm (and believe all their marketing blurb), so they'll continue to blame Pentax for not making wide angle lenses as small and fast as Fujifilm. They're doing that right now.


And I believe that Ricoh Imaging will properly enter the large sensor mirrorless market in a manner similar to Canon's. But, what does it mean? Launching a dedicated MILC system (with it's own, short registration lens) while continuing to develop & maintain their mainstream DSLR system. Don't go all out with MILCs at the expense of the DSLRs. Don't try some weird contraptions like Sony did with their SLTs and other failed experiments. Start slow, have a few good products and build an user base on that - while continuing to serve the needs of your DSLR user base.

OK, so back to the thread topic. I'd like to believe that Pentax will start sorting a high-end series of fast, silent, weather-sealed primes. The DA limited zoom was a good idea (I personally want to see an equivalent to the excellent and compact Fuji 18-55mm 2.8-4), but nothing since.

Lens-wise, the rest of the industry hasn't really been all that active in the APS-C space:
- Sony has been lousy since 2012-2013 in generating new APS-C lenses (and especially good quality ones).
- Canon has also been lousy, but they did IMO start with the right lens (22mm F2).
- Nikon failed with CX (which was a great system, usability-wise), but created a reasonably full set of good lenses. They've done very little with APS-C recently ( I suspect they were going to focus on DL compacts this year, but the earthquake stopped that)
- Samsung was poised to be superb, but got the corporate rug yanked out under them.

Fuji, Panasonic, and Olympus are producing lots of good new (quiet, fast, with many weather-sealed) lenses, and apart from t/s and macro are now really quite complete as systems. But they had to, as this is their core photographic business.

Also, unless you live in the US, the cost of photography has gone up massively in 2016, if only due to currency shifts and increased body costs, and I think many people will not be buying full-frame or MF systems in the future. APS-C therefore becomes important.

What is apparent to me is that Pentax is having to offer up huge price discounts on bodies to shift DSLR units in the APS-C space. That's not a good long term business arrangement. I do believe that if we had good new, fast lenses coming off the line, there would be impetus to selling Pentax products. It's not as if Ricoh is short of a few dollars.

[photoptimist]

Sony may well eat everyone's lunch in the mirrorless world but, meanwhile, Pentax can continue to the sell dinner to those who don't want lunch. There's no reason to expect the entire camera market to converge on mirrorless and the marketshare data surely shows that is not happening. Some people love OVFs, some people love large cameras, some people love using older lenses without an adaptor, some people simply love certain brands. Both the mirrorless and SLR designs come with technical trade-offs which push different photographers with different preferences to pick different technologies.

If Pentax actually has the resources to design a new line of lenses (required if they are to introduce a competitive mirrorless design), they should devote those resources to expanding and improving their DSLR lenses for their existing APS-C, FF, and MF camera lines. Surely, it would be easier to build sales of existing 645Z, K-1, K-3, K-70, KS-2, etc. bodies and sell a lot of new lenses to the preexisting K-mount and 645 owners than to start from zero users with a new mirrorless body and mirrorless-optimized lens mount. Pentax does not have the deep pockets to be all things to all photographers.

Finally, as the K-1 shows, Pentax can be "late to the party" but produce a very high-performance v 1.0 model in some new category. If mirrorless ever does grow to the point where SLRs become non-viable, Pentax can readily take it's rugged design ethos, sensible menu system, IBIS/PS/astrotracer technology and embed it into a new body that just happens to replace the pentaprism with an EVF.

[lithedreamer]

Finally, as the K-1 shows, Pentax can be "late to the party" but produce a very high-performance v 1.0 model in some new category. If mirrorless ever does grow to the point where SLRs become non-viable, Pentax can readily take it's rugged design ethos, sensible menu system, IBIS/PS/astrotracer technology and embed it into a new body that just happens to replace the pentaprism with an EVF.

Ricoh doesn't currently make any electronic viewfinders, do they? I'd like to see them get some practice, before they need to jump ship, however far in the future that may be.

[monochrome]

Pentax is the brand of mirrors and prisms. Ricoh is the brand of technology. Building on Theta (inside which is a standard Ricoh camera battery and a standard microSD card for memory) - the first Pentax non-K-mount APSc or FF sensor MILC will be a Ricoh.

[mee]

Pentax is the brand of mirrors and prisms. Ricoh is the brand of technology. Building on Theta (inside which is a standard Ricoh camera battery and a standard microSD card for memory) - the first Pentax non-K-mount APSc or FF sensor MILC will be a Ricoh.

I think so too.

Yet I really hope Ricoh doesn't listen to the loud few here on Pentax Forums, with respect to Mirrorless, and move too soon or too largely; I think launching too much mirrorless catering to the loud few could be disastrous for the brand.

You can't just turn 180 degrees suddenly and say 'forget you' to the past 40 years of development with DSLRs and customers. Their brand is based around the Pentaprism.. PENTAx. It is in the brand name.

There are a few hear really screaming for it in a feedback loop that gets louder due to only themselves continually screaming for it. I really don't think mirrorless will make you happy. Or at least Pentax designed mirrorless. Either the body will be too bulky, you'll need to buy a new set of lenses for a new mount, and/or you'll have to fumble with adapters to use your current K lenses. Either way it won't be your perceived right way so you'll just jump to Fuji or another brand anyways. Please help us all avoid a lot of heartache and adopt a new brand/mount already!

[photoptimist]

Ricoh doesn't currently make any electronic viewfinders, do they? I'd like to see them get some practice, before they need to jump ship, however far in the future that may be.

That's a good point.

But maybe EVF design is not as hard as it seems. I doubt that any of the camera companies (except maybe Sony who have experience making TVs) make their own EVFs -- they buy the tiny display panels from some ultra-specialized factory that can do that kind of work. Beyond that, the software and hardware to connect to the EVF to the rest of the camera are almost certainly like that used for the back panel which Ricoh surely knows how to do. The optical tidbits that relay the light from the panel to the eye are also well understood by Ricoh based on the many types of viewfinders designed over the years. If anything an EVF is just an OVF with a lot of extra stuff (overlays, indicator lights, etc.) removed because all the information in the VF is done with same software the runs the back panel.

Finally, Pentax/Ricoh have made EVF cameras in the past such as the X-5 superzoom bridge camera and Ricoh GX100.

[peterh337]

There are reasons I bought the K1 and the biggest one is the poor quality of the mirrorless viewfinders. There are years to go in development, just on that. My earlier point is that Pentax need to develop a product for that market space, just in case somebody else does.