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03-26-2017, 07:20 AM - 1 Like   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by pathdoc Quote
Interesting - apart from a self-timer, what did they (particularly the KM) offer the film-neophyte student that the K-1000 did not? Do DOF preview and mirror lockup really make that much of a difference in this context?
I did write teaching tool.

On a KX you have aperture* and shutter speed visible in the VF, and you 'match the needle' by changing either parameter to achieve proper exposure. Checking DoF every time reinforces the variable effects of changing aperture vs. shutter speed. Given enough repetitions a student internalizes the relationship between light and composition and eventually can 'see' the desired image while looking at the scene and can intuitively set the camera for the desired effect. Harder to learn on a K1000.

Having learned how difficult it is to hand hold below 1/30, MUP is a useful feature to use with a tripod to achieve a desired image; again, with experience a shooter can judge when a tripod is required.

My daughter had a resident B&W film photography college credit Winter Term class @ Ghost Ranch in NM. A mechanical camera and tripod were required (and an O2 and Y2 or YG filter). She took my KX and several lenses. The course taught everything from Chemistry to surface mounting, all juried for the grade. One of the juried assignments was a self-portrait composed 'in' the landscape. She had to incident meter herself and reflective meter the background, use Exposure Comp and preset everything using her judgement. A self-timer was naturally obligatory.

KX can teach the whole deal. KM less of it, but you get DoF preview. K1000 with center-needle and no aperture or shutter speed indicator, no timer, no DoF preview and no MUP almost none of it except to learn by failing. By the time the prints come back the student has forgotten what the scene looked like.There are better teaching cameras than K1000, except for the price. **



* iOS wants to auto-capitalize Aperture.
** ducks.


Last edited by monochrome; 03-26-2017 at 07:54 AM.
03-26-2017, 07:53 AM   #62
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Price is everything when you are in charge of purchasing 20 or 30 cameras with kit lenses as a bulk lot for your students. Sad, but true. The KM, through the viewfinder, offers no more than the K1000; it has the self timer and the DOF preview and that's it. Technologically and functionally it is the equivalent of a Spotmatic F when fitted with SMC Tak lenses.

This is one of the reasons why I signed up to be part of the travelling K1000 project - I want to shoot one just because, but I can't justify buying one because my best M42 body is superior in every way.

And yet despite all its faults, a K1000 is a more useful teaching camera than the much more modern P3 because it has the ability (yes, yes, I know; it's also an obligation) to set the ISO manually and use that as a means of exposure compensation.
03-26-2017, 09:23 AM   #63
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Our High School (#2 in the state by quantitative outcomes) budgets Electives as vocational teaching. If you want to fulfill a Mandatory Art Elective with Photography, your practical experience is revealed through the Journalism curriculum; you shoot, whether Creative or Reportage, for a publication and your Instructor is budgeted in Journalism. Journalism has 30 Canon 70D's and lenses, but they also have a supply of elderly K1000's and wet darkrooms specifically for Photography 100.

Low price is false economy. The Instructor and students would be better served to have fewer, better teaching tools. As the K1000's die they replace them with fully refurbished KX'es.

Last edited by monochrome; 03-26-2017 at 10:16 AM.
03-26-2017, 09:59 AM   #64
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We have long hoped for a K-1000 D. Aperture dial, Shutter speed dial, ISO dial, one auto exposure setting and green button. But, it's not going to happen. The philosophy behind the K-1000, a camera rugged camera built to take abuse, useful to photography students, and pros who value a simple fail proof design, and amateurs willing to learn what they are doing. It's a lost concept. There will probably never be a K-1000 D.

03-26-2017, 12:03 PM   #65
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Your solution may be within reach due to the nature of the ongoing digital obsolescence/new model syndrome (although some real advancement is the benefit). Just wait for perhaps another year, when the K-1 will be the outgoing discontinued model, as the new incoming FF model hits the shelves. The K-1 price could well drop close enough to the $1,000 mark for a new left-over. If you already have some very good full-frame lenses, and want to again have their wider-angle field of view, and/or have a need for yet more DOF control, I can understand your interest. Otherwise, go for a new KP. Its price will probably drop after some months. APS-C image quality is getting pretty close, which was one of Pentax's goals with the KP!
03-26-2017, 12:17 PM   #66
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The only reason there's a K-1000 D is as a loss leader to get people into the brand. It all depends on how much Ricoh is willing to lose in the loss department, if any.
03-26-2017, 12:22 PM   #67
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Does it work, in a declining market?
I don't think it could; such a camera would surely compete with Canokywhatever's old models, even second hand ones. It would lose in reviews (because features must be crippled in order to get a low volume, cheap cameras) and it won't attract many new customers.
The K-1 strategy is IMO much better.

03-26-2017, 12:31 PM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Does it work, in a declining market?
I don't think it could; such a camera would surely compete with Canokywhatever's old models, even second hand ones. It would lose in reviews (because features must be crippled in order to get a low volume, cheap cameras) and it won't attract many new customers.
The K-1 strategy is IMO much better.
Unfortunately, it would be a huge gamble.... it would depend entirely on the huge FF hype created by other companies, and APS_c people without a lot of cash wanting to get in on it. And there are actually quite a few of those. I show people my camera in the field and you can see the gears turning, and the smoke coming out their ears.
03-28-2017, 12:02 PM   #69
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I bet they could make a full frame mirrorless for around $1000. With K-70/50/30 style dials and buttons, 1/6000 shutter. dSLR would probably be more expensive due to the extra parts. Website on the matter:

"This is rather amazing. The completely disassembled Sony A7R consists of about a dozen major pieces, held together with 29 screws of just three different sizes. A typical DSLR has around 120 screws of 11 different sizes."
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03-28-2017, 12:19 PM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by rrstuff Quote
I bet they could make a full frame mirrorless for around $1000. With K-70/50/30 style dials and buttons, 1/6000 shutter. dSLR would probably be more expensive due to the extra parts. Website on the matter:

"This is rather amazing. The completely disassembled Sony A7R consists of about a dozen major pieces, held together with 29 screws of just three different sizes. A typical DSLR has around 120 screws of 11 different sizes."
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Because their APSc mirrorless was so well received. You can't make a MILC out of DSLR parts.

Roger Cicala's A7r tear down openly declares it a product of Sony's consumer electronics manufacturing process design skill and significant capital investment. Ricoh Imaging does not have the same process library, and clearly doesn't have the same capital.

Ricoh's first true mirrorless will have a 100mp sensor.
03-28-2017, 12:27 PM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Because their APSc mirrorless was so well received. You can't make a MILC out of DSLR parts.

Roger Cicala's A7r tear down openly declares it a product of Sony's consumer electronics manufacturing process design skill and significant capital investment. Ricoh Imaging does not have the same process library, and clearly doesn't have the same capital.

Ricoh's first true mirrorless will have a 100mp sensor.
"K-70/50/30 >>style<< dials" i.e. cheaper dials and buttons, not the one found in K-3 or KP

I never said they will be making a mirrorless out of dSLR parts. I happen know a thing or two about engineering, having two engineering degrees from MIT and Caltech.
The development of mirrorless full frame camera has been rumored from a few sources, starting around mid 2016, also mentioned here on the forum.
More on the rumored Pentax mirrorless camera | Pentax Rumors
03-28-2017, 12:47 PM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by rrstuff Quote
"K-70/50/30 >>style<< dials" i.e. cheaper dials and buttons, not the one found in K-3 or KP

I never said they will be making a mirrorless out of dSLR parts. I happen know a thing or two about engineering, having two engineering degrees from MIT and Caltech.
The development of mirrorless full frame camera has been rumored from a few sources, starting around mid 2016, also mentioned here on the forum.
More on the rumored Pentax mirrorless camera | Pentax Rumors
Those rumors have been thoroughly debunked. The hand drawing is a Q7.

K-30/50/70 parts are DSLR parts. Why would they make new $0.03 buttons to save money? They already have buttons. DSLR parts are the only parts they have. Sony didn't have success to speak of with DSLR parts.

Pentax doesn't make cheaper any more - they make premium. They're not a large enough company to have a MILC made of MILC-specific parts on a MILC-specific manufacturing line for $1000.

$20,000 - yeah, maybe.

Last edited by monochrome; 03-28-2017 at 01:19 PM.
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