green button

Parallax · 08-07-2008, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by Shashinki

I guess my "sarcasm" skill level isn't very high..

Oh, I don't know, it gave me a good chuckle.

**janosh** · 08-07-2008, 03:09 PM

Looks like "Av" (aperture priority) may be the best bet for me (mixing M and Limited lenses) because that works as well with both types, and the process makes K20D much more like film camera than "M" ...

"M" does allow more complicated setting process, but it doesn't necessarily improve exposure and it doesn't seem as intuitive... "Av" seems more intuitive, doesn't imply as much peering through the finder at internal readouts as "M" does...Pentax and everybody else, save Leica, is badly designed in this respect...knobs like Leica's are often better than readouts because they can be set by touch, without even looking.

Obviously I'm new to this setup but I'll have had a lot of experience by Monday..big doin's over the weekend: Matachine dancers.

**janosh** · 08-07-2008, 03:12 PM

Originally posted by Shashinki

I guess my "sarcasm" skill level isn't very high..

Sarcasm isn't a skill, it's more like acne or bad breath.

nixcamic · 08-07-2008, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by janosh

Looks like "Av" (aperture priority) may be the best bet for me (mixing M and Limited lenses) because that works as well with both types, and the process makes K20D much more like film camera than "M" ...

"M" does allow more complicated setting process, but it doesn't necessarily improve exposure and it doesn't seem as intuitive... "Av" seems more intuitive, doesn't imply as much peering through the finder at internal readouts as "M" does...Pentax and everybody else, save Leica, is badly designed in this respect...knobs like Leica's are often better than readouts because they can be set by touch, without even looking.

Obviously I'm new to this setup but I'll have had a lot of experience by Monday..big doin's over the weekend: Matachine dancers.

Using Av on an M lens will only let you use the lens wide open. M is the only way to use any other apertures at on an M or K lens. On an A lens, yes, go ahead and use Av, it will be easier.

stevebrot · 08-07-2008, 03:34 PM

[QUOTE=Marc Sabatella;311469]

Originally posted by stevebrot

Ummm...let me get this straight

"A" lens
Aperture LOCKED at A setting
Green button does nothing in Av or M

Not true. Have you tried it in M mode? It works the same with "A" lenses as with FA or DA. Which is to say, depending on which camera and how you have it configured in the custom menu, the Green button in M mode will either set both aperture and shutter speed to whatever the "program" mode would have selected, or else it will keep the currently selected aperture and adjust shutter speed to give a proper exposure, or else it will keep currently selected shutter speed and adjust aperture to match. I have mine set to keep aperture and adjust shutter speed, because that's what's going to do anyhow with M lenses.

Of course, when using the aperture ring to set aperture, the camera has to stop down momentarily to take a meter reading, so you can *hear* it adjust shutter speed. Whereas with "A" lenses (and FA and DA), the operation is silent.

My Bad...

I guess I have never used the green button that way. I usually use P/hyper-program mode with my A/DA/FA lenses.

In any case, my suspicion is the OP for this thread has one of two issues:

1) The aperture ring is not locked in the "A" position

-- or --

2) There is an aperture coupling/aperture operation issue (damaged goods)

Rico · 08-07-2008, 04:33 PM

I don't think I saw this mentioned but you can also meter M lenses using DOF preview. If you hold the DOF preview lever the meter is fully functional. You can turn the aperture ring or change the shutter speed and the meter responds accordingly.

I find the green button and the DOF Preview meter 1 to 2 stops over. So I work either of two ways using M lenses. Set an aperture hit the green button then adjust the shutter speed 1 to 2 stops or hit the green button then adjust the aperture 1 to 2 stops.

I occasionally use the DOF preview but I started out using the Green button so my habit is to use the Green button.

Marc Sabatella · 08-07-2008, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by janosh

Looks like "Av" (aperture priority) may be the best bet for me (mixing M and Limited lenses) because that works as well with both types

As another poster points out, Av mode does *not* work with M lenses - the camera is unable to read the aperture ring. So it basically ignores the ring completely and shoots wide open all the time. If you plan to use "M" lenses at any other aperture, you have no choice but to use "M" mode.

Quote:

"Av" seems more intuitive, doesn't imply as much peering through the finder at internal readouts as "M" does...Pentax and everybody else, save Leica, is badly designed in this respect...knobs like Leica's are often better than readouts because they can be set by touch, without even looking.

I guess I don't see how having to take your eyes away from the viewfinder to look at aperture rings and shutter speed dials could *possibly* be considered better than seeing both of these displayed in the viewfinder, which is of course where your eyes normally are when shooting anyhow. Sure, if you can "feel" the setting of the aperture ring and shutter speed dial, that's better than *nothing*, but isn't seeing the setting right in front of your eyes better still? And in any case, with M lenses, you *are* still using the aperture ring, and you *do* have to set it by feel if you don't want to take your eyes off the viewfinder. So it's basically what you are looking for, except that you'll have to look at the shutter speed display right in front of your eyes instead of guess based on "feel".

In any case, with just a few minutes practice in M mode, you'll get the hang of it quickly. The process is quite simple.

creampuff · 08-07-2008, 05:48 PM

A very easy to understand visual representation of the exposure modes including Hyper Manual and use of the Green Button can be found here.
May I suggest all newbies or those unfamiliar with their camera controls take the time and go through the very informative articles listed.

Link:
http://digiichi.pentax.jp/english/tech/vol_23.html

**Clarkey** · 08-07-2008, 06:15 PM

@Rico - Yes that works also - back to using M lenses on first generation Pentax DSLR's!
Also Known as "Doing the Squid" whilst using one hand to focus and the other to simultaneously work the wheel, DOF button and the +/- button.

That green button is a godsend! Pity you can't meter across the frame as well - that would make it perfect. Much improved.

nixcamic · 08-07-2008, 07:10 PM

Originally posted by Clarkey

That green button is a godsend! Pity you can't meter across the frame as well - that would make it perfect. Much improved.

Wait, so the green button only does spot metering?

JohnV3 · 08-07-2008, 09:39 PM

With an M lens on the camera, the camera thinks the lens is open as far as it can go regardless of the ring setting because there is no electrical connection to read or control the aperture. In manual mode, pressing the green button will read the amount of light coming through the lens in accordance with your aperture setting on the ring and then adjust the speed to give the correct exposure. The camera can't adjust the aperture (no connection). In any mode other than manual, the camera can't read the aperture so it defaults to wide open because it is confused. In the manual mode, the camera still can't read the aperture because there is no electrical connection so, pressing the green button alows it to read the amount of light coming through the lens. On camera without a green button, I believe pressing the AE-lock button performs the same procedure.

Since the metering mode is set by the camera and not dependent on the lens, I'm guessing that it will meter according to the setting (spot,center etc.)

This is my understanding about M lenses and the green button. Anyone disagree? If I'm wrong, I'm back to square one even though my exposures are correct when using an M lens.

AndrewG NY · 08-08-2008, 08:56 AM

Originally posted by nixcamic

Wait, so the green button only does spot metering?

No. Green button uses selected metering mode. Perhaps the desire for 'across the frame' alludes to the K1000 which used full-frame metering (not center-weighted like most old SLRs).

AndrewG NY · 08-08-2008, 08:57 AM

Originally posted by Clarkey

@Rico - Yes that works also - back to using M lenses on first generation Pentax DSLR's!
Also Known as "Doing the Squid" whilst using one hand to focus and the other to simultaneously work the wheel, DOF button and the +/- button.

That green button is a godsend! Pity you can't meter across the frame as well - that would make it perfect. Much improved.

On older Pentax D-SLRs with single e-dials, the AE-L button performed the same function as the green button when in Manual exposure mode.

AndrewG NY · 08-08-2008, 09:23 AM

Originally posted by janosh

Looks like "Av" (aperture priority) may be the best bet for me (mixing M and Limited lenses) because that works as well with both types, and the process makes K20D much more like film camera than "M" ...

A really old film camera, that is. They have a certain back-to-basics & nostalgic charm to them but I don't think most people think they're really *better*.

Originally posted by janosh

"M" does allow more complicated setting process, but it doesn't necessarily improve exposure and it doesn't seem as intuitive... "Av" seems more intuitive, doesn't imply as much peering through the finder at internal readouts as "M" does...Pentax and everybody else, save Leica, is badly designed in this respect...knobs like Leica's are often better than readouts because they can be set by touch, without even looking.

Obviously I'm new to this setup but I'll have had a lot of experience by Monday..big doin's over the weekend: Matachine dancers.

Current Pentax cameras are designed primarily for use with 'A' or newer lenses, which is all Pentax has been producing since about 1984, so it is natural that the compatibility mode for older lenses may be marginally less intuitive; I certainly wouldn't judge the Pentax's overall design philosophy based on this.

Furthermore, I'd say that the set-by-touch thing breaks down quite a bit when you're setting exposure in 1/3 EV stops. A lot more clicks to count. And if you actually want to set a specific value, the LED and LCD's are friendlier to low light viewing--of course you can carry a flashlight to use with your Leica. For those who miss using the aperture ring, I'll say that I much prefer the consistent feel and availability of 1/3 EV stops rather than the relatively rough lens aperture rings that felt different with each lens, and were inconsistent across the diaphragm range as to whether they offered 1/2 stops or not.

**ChipB** · 08-08-2008, 09:42 AM

Originally posted by creampuff

A very easy to understand visual representation of the exposure modes including Hyper Manual and use of the Green Button can be found here.
May I suggest all newbies or those unfamiliar with their camera controls take the time and go through the very informative articles listed.

Link:
http://digiichi.pentax.jp/english/tech/vol_23.html

Wow - that's quite a site!! THANKS.

08-07-2008, 03:34 PM	#20
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	[QUOTE=Marc Sabatella;311469] Originally posted by stevebrot Ummm...let me get this straight "A" lens Aperture LOCKED at A setting Green button does nothing in Av or M Not true. Have you tried it in M mode? It works the same with "A" lenses as with FA or DA. Which is to say, depending on which camera and how you have it configured in the custom menu, the Green button in M mode will either set both aperture and shutter speed to whatever the "program" mode would have selected, or else it will keep the currently selected aperture and adjust shutter speed to give a proper exposure, or else it will keep currently selected shutter speed and adjust aperture to match. I have mine set to keep aperture and adjust shutter speed, because that's what's going to do anyhow with M lenses. Of course, when using the aperture ring to set aperture, the camera has to stop down momentarily to take a meter reading, so you can hear it adjust shutter speed. Whereas with "A" lenses (and FA and DA), the operation is silent. My Bad... I guess I have never used the green button that way. I usually use P/hyper-program mode with my A/DA/FA lenses. In any case, my suspicion is the OP for this thread has one of two issues: 1) The aperture ring is not locked in the "A" position -- or -- 2) There is an aperture coupling/aperture operation issue (damaged goods)

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08-07-2008, 03:06 PM	#16
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,332	Originally posted by Shashinki I guess my "sarcasm" skill level isn't very high.. Oh, I don't know, it gave me a good chuckle.

08-07-2008, 03:09 PM	#17
janosh Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 243	Looks like "Av" (aperture priority) may be the best bet for me (mixing M and Limited lenses) because that works as well with both types, and the process makes K20D much more like film camera than "M" ... "M" does allow more complicated setting process, but it doesn't necessarily improve exposure and it doesn't seem as intuitive... "Av" seems more intuitive, doesn't imply as much peering through the finder at internal readouts as "M" does...Pentax and everybody else, save Leica, is badly designed in this respect...knobs like Leica's are often better than readouts because they can be set by touch, without even looking. Obviously I'm new to this setup but I'll have had a lot of experience by Monday..big doin's over the weekend: Matachine dancers.

08-07-2008, 03:12 PM	#18
janosh Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 243	Originally posted by Shashinki I guess my "sarcasm" skill level isn't very high.. Sarcasm isn't a skill, it's more like acne or bad breath.

08-07-2008, 03:18 PM	#19
nixcamic Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Guatemala Posts: 354	Originally posted by janosh Looks like "Av" (aperture priority) may be the best bet for me (mixing M and Limited lenses) because that works as well with both types, and the process makes K20D much more like film camera than "M" ... "M" does allow more complicated setting process, but it doesn't necessarily improve exposure and it doesn't seem as intuitive... "Av" seems more intuitive, doesn't imply as much peering through the finder at internal readouts as "M" does...Pentax and everybody else, save Leica, is badly designed in this respect...knobs like Leica's are often better than readouts because they can be set by touch, without even looking. Obviously I'm new to this setup but I'll have had a lot of experience by Monday..big doin's over the weekend: Matachine dancers. Using Av on an M lens will only let you use the lens wide open. M is the only way to use any other apertures at on an M or K lens. On an A lens, yes, go ahead and use Av, it will be easier.

08-07-2008, 04:33 PM	#21
Rico Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 1,204	I don't think I saw this mentioned but you can also meter M lenses using DOF preview. If you hold the DOF preview lever the meter is fully functional. You can turn the aperture ring or change the shutter speed and the meter responds accordingly. I find the green button and the DOF Preview meter 1 to 2 stops over. So I work either of two ways using M lenses. Set an aperture hit the green button then adjust the shutter speed 1 to 2 stops or hit the green button then adjust the aperture 1 to 2 stops. I occasionally use the DOF preview but I started out using the Green button so my habit is to use the Green button.

08-07-2008, 05:19 PM	#22
Marc Sabatella Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Denver, CO Photos: Gallery Posts: 10,685	Originally posted by janosh Looks like "Av" (aperture priority) may be the best bet for me (mixing M and Limited lenses) because that works as well with both types As another poster points out, Av mode does not work with M lenses - the camera is unable to read the aperture ring. So it basically ignores the ring completely and shoots wide open all the time. If you plan to use "M" lenses at any other aperture, you have no choice but to use "M" mode. Quote: "Av" seems more intuitive, doesn't imply as much peering through the finder at internal readouts as "M" does...Pentax and everybody else, save Leica, is badly designed in this respect...knobs like Leica's are often better than readouts because they can be set by touch, without even looking. I guess I don't see how having to take your eyes away from the viewfinder to look at aperture rings and shutter speed dials could possibly be considered better than seeing both of these displayed in the viewfinder, which is of course where your eyes normally are when shooting anyhow. Sure, if you can "feel" the setting of the aperture ring and shutter speed dial, that's better than nothing, but isn't seeing the setting right in front of your eyes better still? And in any case, with M lenses, you are still using the aperture ring, and you do have to set it by feel if you don't want to take your eyes off the viewfinder. So it's basically what you are looking for, except that you'll have to look at the shutter speed display right in front of your eyes instead of guess based on "feel". In any case, with just a few minutes practice in M mode, you'll get the hang of it quickly. The process is quite simple.

08-07-2008, 05:48 PM	#23
creampuff Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Singapore Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,953	A very easy to understand visual representation of the exposure modes including Hyper Manual and use of the Green Button can be found here. May I suggest all newbies or those unfamiliar with their camera controls take the time and go through the very informative articles listed. Link: http://digiichi.pentax.jp/english/tech/vol_23.html

08-07-2008, 06:15 PM	#24
Clarkey Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Brampton, ON, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,456	@Rico - Yes that works also - back to using M lenses on first generation Pentax DSLR's! Also Known as "Doing the Squid" whilst using one hand to focus and the other to simultaneously work the wheel, DOF button and the +/- button. That green button is a godsend! Pity you can't meter across the frame as well - that would make it perfect. Much improved.

08-07-2008, 07:10 PM	#25
nixcamic Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Guatemala Posts: 354	Originally posted by Clarkey That green button is a godsend! Pity you can't meter across the frame as well - that would make it perfect. Much improved. Wait, so the green button only does spot metering?

08-07-2008, 09:39 PM	#26
JohnV3 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Phoenix, AZ USA Posts: 165	With an M lens on the camera, the camera thinks the lens is open as far as it can go regardless of the ring setting because there is no electrical connection to read or control the aperture. In manual mode, pressing the green button will read the amount of light coming through the lens in accordance with your aperture setting on the ring and then adjust the speed to give the correct exposure. The camera can't adjust the aperture (no connection). In any mode other than manual, the camera can't read the aperture so it defaults to wide open because it is confused. In the manual mode, the camera still can't read the aperture because there is no electrical connection so, pressing the green button alows it to read the amount of light coming through the lens. On camera without a green button, I believe pressing the AE-lock button performs the same procedure. Since the metering mode is set by the camera and not dependent on the lens, I'm guessing that it will meter according to the setting (spot,center etc.) This is my understanding about M lenses and the green button. Anyone disagree? If I'm wrong, I'm back to square one even though my exposures are correct when using an M lens.

08-08-2008, 08:56 AM	#27
AndrewG NY Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Chappaqua, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 688	Originally posted by nixcamic Wait, so the green button only does spot metering? No. Green button uses selected metering mode. Perhaps the desire for 'across the frame' alludes to the K1000 which used full-frame metering (not center-weighted like most old SLRs).

08-08-2008, 08:57 AM	#28
AndrewG NY Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Chappaqua, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 688	Originally posted by Clarkey @Rico - Yes that works also - back to using M lenses on first generation Pentax DSLR's! Also Known as "Doing the Squid" whilst using one hand to focus and the other to simultaneously work the wheel, DOF button and the +/- button. That green button is a godsend! Pity you can't meter across the frame as well - that would make it perfect. Much improved. On older Pentax D-SLRs with single e-dials, the AE-L button performed the same function as the green button when in Manual exposure mode.

08-08-2008, 09:23 AM	#29
AndrewG NY Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Chappaqua, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 688	Originally posted by janosh Looks like "Av" (aperture priority) may be the best bet for me (mixing M and Limited lenses) because that works as well with both types, and the process makes K20D much more like film camera than "M" ... A really old film camera, that is. They have a certain back-to-basics & nostalgic charm to them but I don't think most people think they're really better. Originally posted by janosh "M" does allow more complicated setting process, but it doesn't necessarily improve exposure and it doesn't seem as intuitive... "Av" seems more intuitive, doesn't imply as much peering through the finder at internal readouts as "M" does...Pentax and everybody else, save Leica, is badly designed in this respect...knobs like Leica's are often better than readouts because they can be set by touch, without even looking. Obviously I'm new to this setup but I'll have had a lot of experience by Monday..big doin's over the weekend: Matachine dancers. Current Pentax cameras are designed primarily for use with 'A' or newer lenses, which is all Pentax has been producing since about 1984, so it is natural that the compatibility mode for older lenses may be marginally less intuitive; I certainly wouldn't judge the Pentax's overall design philosophy based on this. Furthermore, I'd say that the set-by-touch thing breaks down quite a bit when you're setting exposure in 1/3 EV stops. A lot more clicks to count. And if you actually want to set a specific value, the LED and LCD's are friendlier to low light viewing--of course you can carry a flashlight to use with your Leica. For those who miss using the aperture ring, I'll say that I much prefer the consistent feel and availability of 1/3 EV stops rather than the relatively rough lens aperture rings that felt different with each lens, and were inconsistent across the diaphragm range as to whether they offered 1/2 stops or not.

08-08-2008, 09:42 AM	#30
ChipB Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Eau Claire, WI Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,701	Originally posted by creampuff A very easy to understand visual representation of the exposure modes including Hyper Manual and use of the Green Button can be found here. May I suggest all newbies or those unfamiliar with their camera controls take the time and go through the very informative articles listed. Link: http://digiichi.pentax.jp/english/tech/vol_23.html Wow - that's quite a site!! THANKS.