When will Pentax add eye-focus to their cameras ?

**caliscouser** · 03-07-2017, 11:12 AM

Well now that I'm shooting more portraits these days I for one would like to see this.
I've seen it on the Sony and I have to say I'm impressed.

It would require a lot of CPU horsepower I imagine, maybe more than Pentax puts into their camera.
However as a previous poster said it seems like an evolution of the CDAF face detection which already works decently well on camera as small as the Q-S1.
Even if it was available in Live View only I think it could be a nice feature for a lot of portrait shooters.

normhead · 03-07-2017, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by redcat

If you shoot portrait or wildlife or idk any subject having eyes, it'd be a must to have the eye in focus. Many cmeras already have this (and track for the eye as subject moves), for many years, when will Pentax add this feature to their bodies ? Am I the only one asking for this ?

I really have no interest. I'd probably figure out how to use it if it was put in, but I have strategies for that stuff.

**monochrome** · 03-07-2017, 11:31 AM - **2 Likes**

These questions always make me wonder how photographers ever achieved critical focus in the ground glass matte screen film days - say the fellow who did my wife's bridal portraits in a studio with a Hassy, or the wedding set shots with a 6x7

normhead · 03-07-2017, 11:56 AM - **3 Likes**

Originally posted by monochrome

These questions always make me wonder how photographers ever achieved critical focus in the ground glass matte screen film days - say the fellow who did my wife's bridal portraits in a studio with a Hassy, or the wedding set shots with a 6x7

Used to be, people used to realize photographers had skills. These days folks just expect technology to improve. If they can't get something right in five minutes, it needs technological improvement. They don't care that people did it in the past with no technological advances.

Now someone will offer up some lame excuses as to why they shouldn't have to develop their technique, the camera should do it all for them.

I'm beginning to understand why grumpy old men get to be so grumpy.

Last edited by normhead; 03-07-2017 at 12:07 PM.

Cambo · 03-07-2017, 12:55 PM

Originally posted by Sandy Hancock

But Nikon and Canon, whose users own the professional portrait market (at least in 35mm land), do not.
Does that tell you anything?

Canon invented it, and had it in some of their film cameras in the early 90's. It sucked. Also, do you REALLY want all those 'beams' going directly into your eyeballs? I sure don't.

Cheers,
Cameron

**UncleVanya** · 03-07-2017, 01:14 PM

Originally posted by Cambo

Canon invented it, and had it in some of their film cameras in the early 90's. It sucked. Also, do you REALLY want all those 'beams' going directly into your eyeballs? I sure don't.

Cheers,
Cameron

That was a different type of eye focus - that was tracking the eyeball of the photographer using infrared beams and then biasing the focus point selected by the camera by this. The type in this discussion is the tracking of the eye of the subject using pattern recognition.

**monochrome** · 03-07-2017, 01:27 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by normhead

I'm beginning to understand why grumpy old men get to be so grumpy.

I'm beginning to understand how a grumpy old man can inadvertently make a youngster really grumpy

Last edited by monochrome; 03-07-2017 at 02:04 PM.

**caliscouser** · 03-07-2017, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by monochrome

I'm beginning to understand how a grumpy old man can inavertently make a youngster really grumpy

Yep, telling potential new K-mount users who may be defecting from other brands how you used to nail focus with your Hassy 40 years ago with your eyes closed is hardly a recipe for long term business success.

**boriscleto** · 03-07-2017, 01:43 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by normhead

I'm beginning to understand why grumpy old men get to be so grumpy.

But I've been a grumpy old man since I was in my 20s...

normhead · 03-07-2017, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by caliscouser

Yep, telling potential new K-mount users who may be defecting from other brands how you used to nail focus with your Hassy 40 years ago with your eyes closed is hardly a recipe for long term business success.

I hope I don't get expelled from the party.

But I always used to walk to school in my socks through 6 foot snow drifts, in -30 degree weather, up hill both ways, so I've earned it.

**UncleVanya** · 03-07-2017, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by caliscouser

Yep, telling potential new K-mount users who may be defecting from other brands how you used to nail focus with your Hassy 40 years ago with your eyes closed is hardly a recipe for long term business success.

Perhaps pointing to examples of this working in other brands will be helpful.

I'm not aware of any eye focus following technology in Canon or Nikon but that's not even what the original poster asked for. I know the eye-focus detection (where the photographer looks) is no longer in vogue in Canon - not sure if anyone picked up on this again in the digital age. Some misleading text from Panasonic had me thinking it worked that way but it was just a fancy eye detect trigger for automatic focus point acquisition rather than triggered by half-press of shutter or back button press of AF button.

In any case the eye tracking features mentioned in the original post are similar to the face tracking but more specific. I would think this is mainly useful in snapshot / candids where critical focus may be hard to obtain due to fast moving situations and discrete use of the camera. The more professional portrait work would likely not depend on this - and that doesn't mean this is a feature that is not worth having - but it does mean that it is a feature many hardcore photogs may never use. The broader appeal to a wider audience is always a balancing act - features cost money to develop but they have a value in attracting users - even if they never use them. Essentially if the buyer thought they would need it - they want it and it impacts their decisions - even if later they realize they don't need it or really want it.

Parallax · 03-07-2017, 02:00 PM - **1 Like**

Just curious; if there are two or more people in the frame, and they aren't the same distance from the sensor plane, who decides which is in focus? The photographer, or the camera?
As a general principle, the more decisions you defer to whomever wrote the firmware the less chance you have of getting the shot the way you want it.

**monochrome** · 03-07-2017, 02:01 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by caliscouser

Yep, telling potential new K-mount users who may be defecting from other brands how you used to nail focus with your Hassy 40 years ago with your eyes closed is hardly a recipe for long term business success.

All you have to do is reference something that happened in the 60's and . . . . WHAM! To the Moon!!

**BigMackCam** · 03-07-2017, 02:09 PM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by UncleVanya

I'm not aware of any eye focus following technology in Canon or Nikon but that's not even what the original poster asked for. I know the eye-focus detection (where the photographer looks) is no longer in vogue in Canon - not sure if anyone picked up on this again in the digital age.

I don't believe anyone offers what Canon used to call "ECF" (Eye Control Focus) in DSLR or mirrorless cameras. I would imagine one of the problems is the number of focus points we now have. With film-era cameras there were typically very few focus points. My EOS 5 / A2, for example, has only five. Once the calibration process is completed, it's not so difficult for the ECF sensor to distinguish which of the five focus points you're looking at. But, accurately calibrating and then sensing eye control for, say, 27 focus points would be a nightmare. It's worth noting that, even on those film cameras that have it, it's not foolproof - and on the EOS 5, it only works with the camera in landscape orientation (so not much use for portraiture!). I've enjoyed playing with the feature quite a bit, and it does work reasonably well, but I've reverted to using just the centre focus point most of the time (as with my DSLRs). That approach is always completely predictable and controllable.

BrianR · 03-07-2017, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by monochrome

These questions always make me wonder how photographers ever achieved critical focus in the ground glass matte screen film days - say the fellow who did my wife's bridal portraits in a studio with a Hassy, or the wedding set shots with a 6x7

Forget how they focused, I want to know how they delivered the bridal portraits without Instagram?

03-07-2017, 12:55 PM	#20
Cambo Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Vancouver, BC Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,016	Actually... Originally posted by Sandy Hancock But Nikon and Canon, whose users own the professional portrait market (at least in 35mm land), do not. Does that tell you anything? Canon invented it, and had it in some of their film cameras in the early 90's. It sucked. Also, do you REALLY want all those 'beams' going directly into your eyeballs? I sure don't. Cheers, Cameron

03-07-2017, 01:45 PM	#25
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by caliscouser Yep, telling potential new K-mount users who may be defecting from other brands how you used to nail focus with your Hassy 40 years ago with your eyes closed is hardly a recipe for long term business success. I hope I don't get expelled from the party. But I always used to walk to school in my socks through 6 foot snow drifts, in -30 degree weather, up hill both ways, so I've earned it. Last edited by normhead; 03-07-2017 at 01:52 PM.

03-07-2017, 02:09 PM - 2 Likes	#29
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,681	Originally posted by UncleVanya I'm not aware of any eye focus following technology in Canon or Nikon but that's not even what the original poster asked for. I know the eye-focus detection (where the photographer looks) is no longer in vogue in Canon - not sure if anyone picked up on this again in the digital age. I don't believe anyone offers what Canon used to call "ECF" (Eye Control Focus) in DSLR or mirrorless cameras. I would imagine one of the problems is the number of focus points we now have. With film-era cameras there were typically very few focus points. My EOS 5 / A2, for example, has only five. Once the calibration process is completed, it's not so difficult for the ECF sensor to distinguish which of the five focus points you're looking at. But, accurately calibrating and then sensing eye control for, say, 27 focus points would be a nightmare. It's worth noting that, even on those film cameras that have it, it's not foolproof - and on the EOS 5, it only works with the camera in landscape orientation (so not much use for portraiture!). I've enjoyed playing with the feature quite a bit, and it does work reasonably well, but I've reverted to using just the centre focus point most of the time (as with my DSLRs). That approach is always completely predictable and controllable. Last edited by BigMackCam; 03-07-2017 at 02:14 PM.

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03-07-2017, 11:12 AM	#16
caliscouser Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: SF Bay Area, CA Photos: Albums Posts: 1,037	Well now that I'm shooting more portraits these days I for one would like to see this. I've seen it on the Sony and I have to say I'm impressed. It would require a lot of CPU horsepower I imagine, maybe more than Pentax puts into their camera. However as a previous poster said it seems like an evolution of the CDAF face detection which already works decently well on camera as small as the Q-S1. Even if it was available in Live View only I think it could be a nice feature for a lot of portrait shooters.

03-07-2017, 11:16 AM	#17
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by redcat If you shoot portrait or wildlife or idk any subject having eyes, it'd be a must to have the eye in focus. Many cmeras already have this (and track for the eye as subject moves), for many years, when will Pentax add this feature to their bodies ? Am I the only one asking for this ? I really have no interest. I'd probably figure out how to use it if it was put in, but I have strategies for that stuff.

03-07-2017, 11:31 AM - 2 Likes	#18
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	These questions always make me wonder how photographers ever achieved critical focus in the ground glass matte screen film days - say the fellow who did my wife's bridal portraits in a studio with a Hassy, or the wedding set shots with a 6x7

03-07-2017, 11:56 AM - 3 Likes	#19
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by monochrome These questions always make me wonder how photographers ever achieved critical focus in the ground glass matte screen film days - say the fellow who did my wife's bridal portraits in a studio with a Hassy, or the wedding set shots with a 6x7 Used to be, people used to realize photographers had skills. These days folks just expect technology to improve. If they can't get something right in five minutes, it needs technological improvement. They don't care that people did it in the past with no technological advances. Now someone will offer up some lame excuses as to why they shouldn't have to develop their technique, the camera should do it all for them. I'm beginning to understand why grumpy old men get to be so grumpy. Last edited by normhead; 03-07-2017 at 12:07 PM.

03-07-2017, 01:14 PM	#21
UncleVanya Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2014 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 28,445	Originally posted by Cambo Canon invented it, and had it in some of their film cameras in the early 90's. It sucked. Also, do you REALLY want all those 'beams' going directly into your eyeballs? I sure don't. Cheers, Cameron That was a different type of eye focus - that was tracking the eyeball of the photographer using infrared beams and then biasing the focus point selected by the camera by this. The type in this discussion is the tracking of the eye of the subject using pattern recognition.

03-07-2017, 01:27 PM - 1 Like	#22
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by normhead I'm beginning to understand why grumpy old men get to be so grumpy. I'm beginning to understand how a grumpy old man can inadvertently make a youngster really grumpy Last edited by monochrome; 03-07-2017 at 02:04 PM.

03-07-2017, 01:39 PM	#23
caliscouser Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: SF Bay Area, CA Photos: Albums Posts: 1,037	Originally posted by monochrome I'm beginning to understand how a grumpy old man can inavertently make a youngster really grumpy Yep, telling potential new K-mount users who may be defecting from other brands how you used to nail focus with your Hassy 40 years ago with your eyes closed is hardly a recipe for long term business success.

03-07-2017, 01:43 PM - 1 Like	#24
boriscleto Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: North Syracuse, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,475	Originally posted by normhead I'm beginning to understand why grumpy old men get to be so grumpy. But I've been a grumpy old man since I was in my 20s...

03-07-2017, 01:50 PM	#26
UncleVanya Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2014 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 28,445	Originally posted by caliscouser Yep, telling potential new K-mount users who may be defecting from other brands how you used to nail focus with your Hassy 40 years ago with your eyes closed is hardly a recipe for long term business success. Perhaps pointing to examples of this working in other brands will be helpful. I'm not aware of any eye focus following technology in Canon or Nikon but that's not even what the original poster asked for. I know the eye-focus detection (where the photographer looks) is no longer in vogue in Canon - not sure if anyone picked up on this again in the digital age. Some misleading text from Panasonic had me thinking it worked that way but it was just a fancy eye detect trigger for automatic focus point acquisition rather than triggered by half-press of shutter or back button press of AF button. In any case the eye tracking features mentioned in the original post are similar to the face tracking but more specific. I would think this is mainly useful in snapshot / candids where critical focus may be hard to obtain due to fast moving situations and discrete use of the camera. The more professional portrait work would likely not depend on this - and that doesn't mean this is a feature that is not worth having - but it does mean that it is a feature many hardcore photogs may never use. The broader appeal to a wider audience is always a balancing act - features cost money to develop but they have a value in attracting users - even if they never use them. Essentially if the buyer thought they would need it - they want it and it impacts their decisions - even if later they realize they don't need it or really want it.

03-07-2017, 02:00 PM - 1 Like	#27
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,332	Just curious; if there are two or more people in the frame, and they aren't the same distance from the sensor plane, who decides which is in focus? The photographer, or the camera? As a general principle, the more decisions you defer to whomever wrote the firmware the less chance you have of getting the shot the way you want it.

03-07-2017, 02:01 PM - 1 Like	#28
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by caliscouser Yep, telling potential new K-mount users who may be defecting from other brands how you used to nail focus with your Hassy 40 years ago with your eyes closed is hardly a recipe for long term business success. All you have to do is reference something that happened in the 60's and . . . . WHAM! To the Moon!!

03-07-2017, 02:47 PM	#30
BrianR Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Ontario Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,332	Originally posted by monochrome These questions always make me wonder how photographers ever achieved critical focus in the ground glass matte screen film days - say the fellow who did my wife's bridal portraits in a studio with a Hassy, or the wedding set shots with a 6x7 Forget how they focused, I want to know how they delivered the bridal portraits without Instagram?