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03-16-2017, 01:40 PM - 3 Likes   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by adjutant Quote
Damn, really? I haven't seen such options anywhere on my K-3 II before.
From memory. PDAF. I'm sure I'm missing something:
  • Focus or Release Priority?
  • 1st Frame Priority?
  • Focus or FPS Priority?
  • 1, 9, or 33 point AF Area?
  • Expanded Area? 9, 25 or 33?
  • Continuous H-M-L?
  • Slow, Medium or High Hold?
  • Program Line?
  • Mode Selection?
  • AF or Shutter Button focus?
These settings and others make the same changes to Tracking AF as all the other makers. Pentax just doesn't label them Sports, Birds in Flight, Children, Formula 1, Running Dogs, Kate Upton's Right Eye, Weaving Bicyclist coming at you, etc. like the other guys do.


Last edited by monochrome; 03-16-2017 at 01:57 PM.
03-16-2017, 01:55 PM - 2 Likes   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
From memory. I'm sure I'm missing something:
  • Focus or Release Priority?
  • Next Shot Priority?
  • 1, 9, or 23 point AF?
  • Slow, Medium or High Hold?
  • AF or Shutter Button focus?
These settings and others make the same changes to Tracking AF as all the other makers. Pentax just doesn't label them Sports, Birds in Flight, Children, Formula 1, Running Dogs, Kate Upton's Right Eye, Weaving Bicyclist coming at you, etc. like the other guys do.
When I see Fujifilm's autofocus settings, they seem a lot more comprehensive. `Focus priority', `how many AF points', `shutter or backbutton focusing' isn't exactly the programmable tracking algorithm I had in mind. TOP : Auto Focus System Special Site | FUJIFILM
03-16-2017, 02:03 PM - 1 Like   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by adjutant Quote
When I see Fujifilm's autofocus settings, they seem a lot more comprehensive. `Focus priority', `how many AF points', `shutter or backbutton focusing' isn't exactly the programmable tracking algorithm I had in mind. TOP : Auto Focus System Special Site | FUJIFILM
I went to the manual and edited my post. Pentax is equally comprehensive. You just have to understand what the different combinations of settings do. Pentax would be well advised to release a White Paper detailing the AF.C logic and settings combinations. There's nothing on the Fuji Site Pentax doesn't also have except the Presets - the 'I don't want to think' controls.

That plus the AF sensor coverage are the big problems.
03-16-2017, 02:19 PM - 1 Like   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I went to the manual and edited my post. Pentax is equally comprehensive. You just have to understand what the different combinations of settings do. Pentax would be well advised to release a White Paper detailing the AF.C logic and settings combinations. There's nothing on the Fuji Site Pentax doesn't also have except the Presets - the 'I don't want to think' controls.

That plus the AF sensor coverage are the big problems.
The only setting that deals with how the software handles AF tracking is the low, medium, or high hold setting. This doesn't tell me how the camera handles objects suddenly appearing into the frame, how the camera handles objects briefly being in front of the subject, will it prioritize an object against the sky, etc. I can only hope that these 3 settings alone are enough to satisfy. I'm not sure, will need to do some research into what they mean exactly.

I do agree that the AF sensor coverage is an important issue. I will admit that is a hardware limitation that can't be solved by software.

03-16-2017, 02:34 PM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by adjutant Quote
The only setting that deals with how the software handles AF tracking is the low, medium, or high hold setting. This doesn't tell me how the camera handles objects suddenly appearing into the frame, how the camera handles objects briefly being in front of the subject, will it prioritize an object against the sky, etc. I can only hope that these 3 settings alone are enough to satisfy. I'm not sure, will need to do some research into what they mean exactly.

I do agree that the AF sensor coverage is an important issue. I will admit that is a hardware limitation that can't be solved by software.
Actually, all of those settings affect the software. They're inputs and conditions that control the AF algorithm.

Low, Medium and High Hold govern objects suddenly coming into the frame and objects crossing in front of the subject. There might be a weakness acquiring focus on a subject not in the frame when it comes into the frame - but that's also a lens problem and a technique Compensation solution. I'm not sure I understand where prioritizing a bird versus the clear blue sky is an issue if the bird is covered by an AF point.

IMHO it is all there. Perhaps there's a generation of processor speed or algo compactness to catch up, and the presets or a White Paper would be helpful, but the foundation is in place

Last edited by monochrome; 03-16-2017 at 04:08 PM.
03-16-2017, 03:28 PM - 2 Likes   #66
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Well, it doesn't really matter what sort of fancy settings and scenarios all the manufacturers have or don't have.

Pentax' major problem is that when a subject comes towards the camera the latter acquires focus, waits until the subject has left the focus plane, jumps ahead to acquire focus again, loses focus again ... It doesn't follow the subject smoothly, resulting in way more out-of-focus shots than comparable models from other manufacturers.

It's a phenomenon I have observed, one that I have heard many other Pentax users confirm (on this forum, on Facebook, in comments under a blog article I wrote about it ...), and one that is mirrored in detail by independent reviewers.
03-16-2017, 04:03 PM - 2 Likes   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by FantasticMrFox Quote
Well, it doesn't really matter what sort of fancy settings and scenarios all the manufacturers have or don't have.

Pentax' major problem is that when a subject comes towards the camera the latter acquires focus, waits until the subject has left the focus plane, jumps ahead to acquire focus again, loses focus again ... It doesn't follow the subject smoothly, resulting in way more out-of-focus shots than comparable models from other manufacturers.

It's a phenomenon I have observed, one that I have heard many other Pentax users confirm (on this forum, on Facebook, in comments under a blog article I wrote about it ...), and one that is mirrored in detail by independent reviewers.
In my experience (admittedly amateurish and not up to the caliber of bloggers and internet reviewers) properly setting the camera and employing the simple technique of moving the camera to keep the subject covered by the AF area completely contradicts this urban myth.

03-16-2017, 04:16 PM - 1 Like   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by FantasticMrFox Quote
It's a phenomenon I have observed, one that I have heard many other Pentax users confirm
That's normal. Pentax can't have AF tracking as good as Canikon, they know it. Fast and accurate AF tracking requires optically stabilized lenses to begin with.
In body image stab. has the advantage for prime lenses, but for sport lenses, that solution is the least adequate for high performance AF tracking. Any camera company knows this. I've been able to have smooth predictive AF with the K3 and K1 when I could keep the subject in the AF area. It's always the same, can't have it all.
03-16-2017, 04:56 PM - 2 Likes   #69
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Lets face it Pentax has all ways been behind with Nikon / Canon / Minolta ( Sony) with AF ever since it came out with the SFX (SF1) & every model after it .
Like I always said IF I didnt have any camera gear & was to do it all again I wouldnt buy Pentax .
To be honest I would either go Nikon or Canon especially with the better choice of lens / flashs etc in my neck of the woods
03-16-2017, 05:05 PM - 2 Likes   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
In my experience (admittedly amateurish and not up to the caliber of bloggers and internet reviewers) properly setting the camera and employing the simple technique of moving the camera to keep the subject covered by the AF area completely contradicts this urban myth.
QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
I've been able to have smooth predictive AF with the K3 and K1 when I could keep the subject in the AF area. It's always the same, can't have it all.
I am not talking about tracking across focus point, I am talking about a scenario where a single focus point is employed (usually centre for best accuracy) and kept steady on the approaching subject's face. The only tracking the camera has to do is to adjust the focus for the subject coming closer, and Pentax cameras just don't do that well. Instead of keeping the subject in focus smoothly, they make bigger jumps, and everything in between jumps is out of focus.

It's not an urban myth, it's an observation made by many users and reviewers independently, no matter which AF settings I have used on my K3 over the past 2.5 years. It's also independent of the lens used, with both HSM, DC, PLM and screw-drive lenses showing this behaviour. The review of the super-fast focusing new HD DA 55-300 PLM WR right here on PF testifies to that. Someone recently told me that they have somewhat better success when shooting JPEG only (something I still need to try, I only shoot RAW), which suggests the camera doesn't have enough processing power.
03-16-2017, 05:21 PM - 1 Like   #71
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That's a pretty specific use case with pretty specific and limiting settings to cite as proof of a general Pentax AF POOR evaluation - but - precisely the contrary is my experience (and others in this thread) with K-1 and 28~105 and even FA lenses. Your specific use case disables most of the AF system sensors and settings, so of course you have a low hit rate.

This kind of strawman argument false conclusion / Confirmation Bias- really bothers me.

K-3 is December, 2013 technology.

Last edited by monochrome; 03-16-2017 at 07:41 PM.
03-16-2017, 07:26 PM - 3 Likes   #72
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Oh look, another Pentax AF thread ...

QuoteOriginally posted by FantasticMrFox Quote
but even if they put their best tech in there they wouldn't reach Nikon's AF (and probably flash system too) ...
As an owner of two Nikon DSLR's, I don't understand all this mythologizing of Nikon's AF. Depending on the lens, the light, the subject, Nikon AF can perform better, or worse, or the same as Pentax AF.

Plus I'm sure Ricoh's engineers are as clever as Nikon's (probably went to the same universities). If it was a management priority, and the resources flowed, Ricoh could probably blow Nikon's AF right out of the water.

QuoteOriginally posted by FantasticMrFox:
Pentax' major problem is that when a subject comes towards the camera the latter acquires focus, waits until the subject has left the focus plane, jumps ahead to acquire focus again, loses focus again.
Performance there can depend on your AF settings. If you shoot with centre-point AF, for example, you can't rely on the other surrounding AF points to assist you with depth information needed for predictive tracking. Similarly, if your metering has been set to spot with a K-3, you can't rely on the 86k RGB metering sensor to feed colour movement information as an input into your AF tracking algorithm either. Same problems are evident in Nikon '3D tracking' or Canon's 'AI Servo AF'. Predictive motion tracking is hard, and relies on multiple camera inputs to help make it work.

QuoteOriginally posted by bobbotron Quote
I think that a lot of photographers don't appreciate there's also a lot of skill to operate AF well. Tracking your subject, getting a good lock, waiting until focus is acquired before taking the shot.
Indeed. Even Nikon D500 shooters will get poor results if they don't do the basics.

QuoteOriginally posted by adjutant Quote
I'm not sure, will need to do some research into what they mean exactly.
Study a Canon 1DX (and newer) auto-focus settings guide or white paper. The K-3/K-3II/K-1 options and concepts will look familiar.

Not that Pentax AF is perfect. Their technology certainly needs to keep evolving, and it would be nice indeed if Ricoh could more aggressively apply their corporate resources to make Pentax AF work a lot better.

Last edited by rawr; 03-16-2017 at 07:38 PM.
03-16-2017, 08:53 PM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
From memory. PDAF. I'm sure I'm missing something:
You also miss the most important thing.

The main thing is how it works. The effective or not.
03-16-2017, 09:07 PM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
As an owner of two Nikon DSLR's, I don't understand all this mythologizing of Nikon's AF. Depending on the lens, the light, the subject, Nikon AF can perform better, or worse, or the same as Pentax AF.
But it's more effective and stable. It's fact.

To break one myth is the creation new myth.
On the basis of your logic we can make conclusion that Pentax is genius.
They don't invest serious money in AF system, AF is out-of-date, but it works the same. Plus-minus.

Other brands are silly companies. They develop rather complex and new technology AF systems which at the same level as old Pentax.
Why do the other brand develop new AF system and technologize new AF design? No need.
03-16-2017, 09:09 PM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Of course Pentax could, but we wouldn't buy it if they did.

There's no magic to cameras. Pentax could immediately create a D500-spec. body and Nikon class strobe. It's just math, engineering and capital. What they can't do is recapture the time lost since 2000 doing nothing while CaNiFuShy were incrementally developing their products.

Ricoh could throw capital at the problem and catch up 15 years of investment in 2 - 3 years. But we wouldn't pay the price required to recover the development cost, tooling and materials.

The problem is us.
Amen. This is so very true!
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