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03-22-2017, 11:26 PM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
What's funny is that the Graham Watson photo that you shared exhibits two of the characteristics that I mentioned, McEwan in celebration with the second place rider in defeat. That is the classic finish line photo when there are two or more racers competing. Maybe the finish banner is not there, but very often there are cues to indicate that it is at the finish. Together, the figures tell a story. [these photos are not mine].
?

I know you've mentioned them as a requirement, but Graham Watson's portfolio doesn't contain *any* finish banners.

And he has plenty of shots at the finish where there are *no* vanquished opponents, like this one of Tom Boonen:




QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
because sometimes the second place guy does not give you what you want. .
Er, yes. These are not staged, this is reportage, you would know that. I can't say, "Excuse me, highly paid sports pros, I'm nobody, could you do that once more, but this time with feeling?"

It's what I'm after, though. Just last weekend this cricketer was parked under a long ball (they don't wear gloves) and while everybody else was in ecstasy (like the other fielder in the background) because it put them into the final, this otherwise cocky player was just relieved he hadn't spilled it.



QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
So to suggest that I am some sort of Pentax-hating, Canikon fanboy is simply unfair.
Well, go back and read your Post 7, @johnmflores. You're in the writing trade. *I* know you're not a Pentax-hater because I've read other posts from you, but IMHO it needed the qualifiers you've stated subsequently.


Last edited by clackers; 03-22-2017 at 11:44 PM.
03-22-2017, 11:38 PM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote

Such results, while thoroughly enjoyable to watch (again thank you for sharing them all!), in the way they are presented could never confirm the end conclusion. The only way, if you really were interested, to prove the AF-C tracking functions properly would be to do the same photo shoot but this time hold down the shutter release button fully and take a spray burst. Then post all of the images in the burst. .
I don't get it, @mee.

This is a complete sequence. I'm an amateur casually pointing my handheld K-1 with a Tamron 70-200 (old style screw drive, not some expensive sports lens) at a runner. I was in fact a participant in the day's races, not there to photograph it.

The ninth shot of the sequence was cropped and processed for my social media.









































03-22-2017, 11:47 PM   #63
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My wife gets grumpy if I photograph her running!
03-23-2017, 02:54 AM - 1 Like   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
My wife gets grumpy if I photograph her running!
Well, my wife got grumpy for photographing this girl running, Mark.

Can't win.:P


Last edited by clackers; 03-23-2017 at 03:01 AM.
03-23-2017, 02:56 AM - 1 Like   #65
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My partner gets grumpy If I photograph her.... doing just about anything :P

And Clackers, we need to know the position of the moon and what the ambient humidity was before ensuring any direct comparable results for as we all know, exif can be faked! Those highlights Hmmmm they look kinda Canikon to me... :P
03-23-2017, 02:59 AM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by tromboads Quote
My partner gets grumpy If I photograph her.... doing just about anything

And Clackers, we need to know the position of the moon and what the ambient humidity was before ensuring any direct comparable results for as we all know, exif can be faked! Those highlights Hmmmm they look kinda Canikon to me... :P
Sadly, I know what you're talking about.

This lack of confidence bordering on self-loathing from some Pentaxians has to be cured.

Like dating, you have to actually do photography, and get better at it.

03-23-2017, 06:42 AM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by ScooterMaxi Jim Quote
That's a fair question that I swear was answered at some point, but not entirely sure of the value in trying to dig it up. Instead, I'll offer my perspective.

AF.S should yield the best focus for a single static shot.

AF.C will yield the best results for a sequence of shots, and especially so if your intended subject is moving.

In theory, AF.A will pick the best of the two modes by determining what the shooter (and body) is doing. In practice, I have found it not useful on the K-3 or older units; I'm yet to find skilled users who prefer it.

Three Custom Menu modes on the K-3 (#s 15-17) further determine how the camera responds regarding tolerance for out of focus shots, as opposed to continuous high-speed image capture regardless of focus. I am yet to find a situation when the K-3 (or other bodies) has tended to hesitate too much; I still get a fair share of not-quite-sharp images when using the highest focus-priority setting. From the standpoint of those of us who might be getting paid for our best shots, I don't see a reason to do anything other than focus priority.

#15. AF.S Setting - 1. Focus Priority.... (on occasion I might forget that the Quick Menu setting is in AF.S, so better safe than sorry regarding focus).
#16. First Frame Action in AF.C - 3. Focus Priority.... this one is pretty critical based on shooting style; generally I don't expect my first shot to be at the peak moment, and I expect myself to be prepared to start shooting before the maximum impact moment. Others might have a different shooting style, though, and want the first shot fired whether it is in good focus or not.
#17. Action in AF.C - 1. Focus Priority - Continuous Focus tracking takes priority.... Any alternative kind of reminds us of the terribly not-PC Stevie Wonder shooting a tennis match for Canon TV parody.

Almost as important is the direction to the camera on what AF sensor array will work best for any given situation, and the skilled shooter will want to understand the context in making the decision. Few threads have addressed the issue, and the manual is not at all helpful. The K-3 has a total of seven modes available, spot, four SEL (noted in bold) and two AUTO. Most of us probably pick single spot SEL and get good results in the vast majority of situations. However, for controlled action shooting (where moves can be fairly easily predicted) such as, um, this guy weaving on his bicycle through a sidewalk cafe (cough, cough) - SEL-9 is a great option; SEL-25 is better for action where you really don't know where the next move is likely to be (soccer is a good example). I am not a fan of using the two edge sensors in SEL-27 because they are not very accurate. As for the two corresponding AUTO settings (9, 25), they will not track, but will best guess (most often a defined object closest to the camera); not a really useful function in my experience.
Excellent!

03-23-2017, 07:00 AM   #68
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People have suggested to use AFC all the time to allow the camera to readjust focus if me or the subject move, hence achieving better focus. I've been using it for a while now, but I do find my lens hunting a bit, not locking the focus - not all the time, but maybe 15-20% of the shots. I'm thinking of maybe using the AFS for a week or two and trying to determine if using AFC has any benefits in non-sports photography for me personally.
03-23-2017, 10:08 AM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
?

I know you've mentioned them as a requirement, but Graham Watson's portfolio doesn't contain *any* finish banners.

And he has plenty of shots at the finish where there are *no* vanquished opponents, like this one of Tom Boonen:
Yes, Watson has plenty of shots where there are *no* vanquished opponents, simply because a lot of races finish with a solo victory. But when there are more than one cyclists sprinting for the line (as in the photo you posted), the best shots contain both the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat.


(Cycling fans: Here's Watson's portfolio. It's basically the history of bicycle racing over the last 40+ years. :: GrahamWatson.com :: Graham Watson Cycling Photography ::)

Everyone should note the years these photos were taken and the state of AF technology at the time. Today's Pentax AF is certainly better than the AF that Watson used to capture some of these iconic shots. I'd imagine that Watson prefocused on the finish in some of these shots and gave himself enough DOF to work with. So it is possible to get these shots without having the best AF in the business. You just have to know what you are doing.


QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
It's what I'm after, though. Just last weekend this cricketer was parked under a long ball (they don't wear gloves) and while everybody else was in ecstasy (like the other fielder in the background) because it put them into the final, this otherwise cocky player was just relieved he hadn't spilled it.
That's a nice shot. I wish you luck pursuing that angle. But this is about AF and that fellow doesn't seem to be moving all that much.


QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Well, go back and read your Post 7, @johnmflores. You're in the writing trade. *I* know you're not a Pentax-hater because I've read other posts from you, but IMHO it needed the qualifiers you've stated subsequently.
So you know that I'm not a Pentax-hater by my history here yet you alone still tried to call me out as one? Seems likes you are the only one that needed the qualifiers LOL.

---------- Post added 03-23-17 at 12:42 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by adjutant Quote
Are those guys motocrossing in an ice rink? Absolute madmen.
They've got spikes on their tires for traction. You can kind of see them here:


#25
by John Flores, on Flickr

There are no jumps or banking, so it's not quite like motocross on ice. It's more closely related to flat track racing:


Jay Maloney leads Brad Baker into Turn 1
by John Flores, on Flickr

There is a version is Australia and Europe called Speedway. Fun stuff to watch.
Attached Images
     
03-23-2017, 07:26 PM - 2 Likes   #70
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I want to go for a bike ride
03-23-2017, 10:00 PM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
That's a nice shot. I wish you luck pursuing that angle. But this is about AF and that fellow doesn't seem to be moving all that much.
John, the person who started talking about aesthetics instead of autofocus in this thread was you ... in post 18, so this latest effort from you is rich.

Last edited by clackers; 03-23-2017 at 10:14 PM.
03-23-2017, 10:11 PM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
So you know that I'm not a Pentax-hater by my history here yet you alone still tried to call me out as one? Seems likes you are the only one that needed the qualifiers.
I reckon people just reading your short Post 7 without any other knowledge may very well think you're a simplistic Canikon troll.

And that's not their fault. As someone who makes their living from writing, you know 'It's the readers' problem I was perceived as negative' is not a defence to an editor.

Last edited by clackers; 03-23-2017 at 10:17 PM.
03-24-2017, 12:37 AM - 1 Like   #73
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The problem with that sort of thread is that many things are mixed together...

There the case where you have a single AF point active, back button AF, AFC and honestly my K3 does a decent job there. I say decent because it is exactly that. Not all shots will be perfectly in focus if the dof is too shallow, but a majority of them will be. It works. It will work better with a slow runner with quite some dof like the clackers case because that's an easy case. Not that difficult to follow the subject and the dof help. And the camera only has to work with Z axis. I am sure some specialized sport camera do a better job at that, and get more keepers, allows for wider appertures and faster moving subjects, but Pentax does the job done.

Of course it goes down to 0% keepers in some case: low light on a body like original K5 + 50-135 against a fast moving subject because it is out of specs. But with K3 and up + fast lenses and maybe a bit closed down on critical case, this work very well.

It will be much more difficult to stay in this mode for a very fast and randomly moving subject not really for the AF if you stay in single point: it just focus on what you have on that focus point often just fine, but for the photographer to follow the subject with a single point. That's when you want X-Y tracking, you first designate the subject with an AF point or maybe a few, and you expect the camera to understand what the subject is, so that it continuously track it over the viewfinder and will ensure the focus is always on it.

This is typically a setting where I do not trust my camera to do the job. And this is were Nikon is really ahead of Pentax. First, this mode can't work at all on older camera. K5, K7, KS1, KS2, K70, the hardware is simply not made for that. The metering sensor is using 77 point in BW and there no way the camera can use that to recognise anything. Then on K3, KP, K1, there some hardware 80K+ RGB sensor and 27 or 33 AF points. That far from the latest greatest of the competition (on some aspects more like it was 10 year ago for Nikon flagship) but the hardware spec are good enough to achieve something. But even with theses bodies, I don't fell like the Pentax camera do a outstanding job in that area. In all honesty. This is were the reviewers, the people complaining will see a problem.

To me people working with single AF point + back button don't understand the complain against Pentax because it work quite well. Not perfect but quite decent. But people that want also X-Y tracking that a completely different story.

Last edited by Nicolas06; 03-24-2017 at 12:45 AM.
03-24-2017, 06:26 AM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
I reckon people just reading your short Post 7 without any other knowledge may very well think you're a simplistic Canikon troll.

And that's not their fault. As someone who makes their living from writing, you know 'It's the readers' problem I was perceived as negative' is not a defence to an editor.
Proof is in the pudding. You are literally the only one here to accuse me of being a Canikon troll. Everyone else understood the context. You did too.
03-24-2017, 06:41 AM - 2 Likes   #75
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@johnmflores @clackers

Assert:

John is a long term Pentax user and supporter here and on other Fora, as well as professionally and publicly.

Let's get this thread back on track.

Postulate:

From SAFOX Xl forward Pentax AF is competent for action photography and tracking moving objects.

Conditions:
  1. User knowledge of and proper configuration of Pentax AF settings is required for optimal results
  2. User experience and skill (generally and particularly) may be required for optimal results
Given 1. and 2., Pentax AF is competitive with other dSLR brands in comparable features classes

I am verklempft. Talk amongst yourselves*.


* Classical reference if over 50.

Last edited by monochrome; 03-24-2017 at 06:25 PM.
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