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03-21-2017, 05:49 AM   #1
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Fastest M-Mode ever... if the Green Button was implemented consistently -.-

Hey everyone,
not a question this time, but a thought about M-Mode, wich i think could be greater, at least for me

i know there's different ways to use the Green Button, like Programm line stuff etc. That's great but this post isn't about that.

I use manual mode only, it bugs me that automatic modes constantly change settings behind my back
I love that (in the menu) you can set the Green button to set a parameter for you on demand, i.e. give you Tv once when you press the button, but then after that leaves your settings alone. It's a huge time saver! Let's say i set the Aperture (because i know which DoF i want for the picture), and usually i would then have to turn the Time wheel a lot of times until the light meter shows correct exposure. But instead i can push the Green Button and voila, it set's the Time value for me. Awesome!

However, it only works in one direction. And i was disappointed when i tried, that it doesn't work together with the ISO button at all.

Here's how, in my opinion, the Green Button should work in manual mode to make using it super fast:

A)
- You set the Time
- Pushing the Green Button sets the Aperture (because the camera knows i turned the Time wheel last) according to ISO and light meter;
it's like Tv on demand

or B)
- You set Aperture
- Pushing the Green Button sets the Time (because the camera knows i turned the Aperture wheel last);
it's like Av on demand

or C)
- You set the Time AND the Aperture
- Pushing the ISO button and the Green Button sets the ISO to a value that fits the selected Time and Aperture;
it's like TAv on demand

This implementation of the Green Button in manual mode would make it super fast: You would have full control, but instead of turning all the wheels yourself, the camera sets the missing value for you, but only the moment you want it to.

So the two things i'm missing currently, that are part of the procedure described above, are:
- Which parameter the Green Button controls can switch, dependent on which parameter i changed last
- and having the feature for ISO, too
Makes it feel to me like the Green Button in manual mode is implemented halfheartedly.

What do you think?
Please let's not have a discussion about personal preferences for automatic modes i'm asking if this is logical to you (or more logical than the current implementation).

Bromberger

03-21-2017, 06:32 AM   #2
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They could add an "auto" option to the green button for manual mode so it keep the setting changed last.

But in most cases I prefer to be able to select which parameter it always should change. In 95% of the cases I want to only change shutter speed independent of which parameter I changed last.
I may fine tune shutter speed after I press green button to set shutter speed, but next time I press green button I still want it to set the shutter speed.

Last edited by Fogel70; 03-21-2017 at 07:18 AM.
03-21-2017, 06:40 AM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by dcshooter Quote
Unfortunately, A and C would be impossible to implement.
You mean... impossible to implement for non-DA lenses, right?

Which is a bummer but not at all what my post was about. Maybe you misread my post, reading M in combination with Green button and assuming it was about manual lenses?
03-21-2017, 07:05 AM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
They could and an "auto" option to the green button for manual mode so it keep the setting changed last.

But in most cases I prefer to be able to select which parameter it always should change. In 95% of the cases I want to only change shutter speed independent of which parameter I changed last.
I may fine tune shutter speed after I press green button to set shutter speed, but next time I press green button I still want it to set the shutter speed.
Of course, makes sense.
Also, propably what makes changes in camera interface design so difficult is, there's a thousand different workflows and everyone wants to use the one they prefer -.- including me

Just thinking of an interface where every wheel is pushable (like some mouse wheels are), and pushing it is a command to change its value according to the others. Like every wheel (even the K1's function dial when it's set to ISO) is it's own green button

03-21-2017, 07:35 AM   #5
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Another way for this would be an option to turn off the automatic metering in any mode.
It could maybe be called "reversed AE-lock" as an option for AE-lock button, where exposure is locked except when AE-lock button is pressed.

Because what you want is basically the Hyper-P mode (and TAv-mode) with the automated metering turned off, and replaced by a metering only done by press of a button.
03-21-2017, 08:35 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
They could add an "auto" option to the green button for manual mode so it keep the setting changed last.

But in most cases I prefer to be able to select which parameter it always should change.
Yep...The last thing I would be interested in is having the green button change behavior based on my last two actions.* Adding ISO into the mix (case C) would like a B-grade horror movie IMHO.

Without being snarky, what the OP is asking for (single button Tv-shift, Av-shift or ISO-shift) may be accomplished by using the AE lock button in Tv, Av, or TAv modes.


Steve

* Yes, last two actions...most recent plus the one before as the qualifier for ISO-shift. I don't know what is supposed to happen if the most recent is to change the ISO or exposure compensation. (Cases D and E?)

Last edited by stevebrot; 03-21-2017 at 08:43 AM.
03-21-2017, 08:37 AM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
Another way for this would be an option to turn off the automatic metering in any mode.
It could maybe be called "reversed AE-lock" as an option for AE-lock button, where exposure is locked except when AE-lock button is pressed.

Because what you want is basically the Hyper-P mode (and TAv-mode) with the automated metering turned off, and replaced by a metering only done by press of a button.
Good thinking, but this way i would still have to change between Hyper-P and TAv-Mode depending on wether i want to set A/T or Iso...right?

03-21-2017, 11:29 AM   #8
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I have for many years used (Hyper) Manual mode quite often, and along with it made frequent use of spot metering. I use the green button and controls at default settings. Using the green button is the quickest, most efficient way to spot meter around a scene, compared to cameras of other brands. By your remarks, it appears that your camera model has both Tv and Av thumb and finger control dials.

I think your solution might be to do as I do. Leaving controls at default, in M mode using the green button to set meter-balanced exposure, then if you want a particular aperture, choose it, BUT hit the AE-L button first. As you choose your preferred aperture, the shutter speed will simply follow along, preserving the meter-balanced exposure. That works the other way too- if you hit the AE-L button after the green button has set exposure and you wish to have a different shutter speed, hit the AE-L button first, select your shutter speed, and the aperture will change accordingly.

As to ISO, perhaps just setting the ISO to AUTO in your camera will solve that- I have not tried it myself to find out if ISO functions as AUTO in M mode.

Last edited by mikesbike; 03-21-2017 at 02:13 PM.
03-21-2017, 04:05 PM   #9
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omg this would confuse the hell out of me....."now did i change aperture or shutter speed last..oh I forgot!"

I use manual mode when I want to achieve an exposure setting for a scene and dont want it to change. This involves a number of test shots first. Usually starting with setting aperture and using green button to set a metered Tv (I have mine set up that way). After some test shots I have established the exposure I want and I may then use the AE-L lock as mikesbike described to change Tv/Av settings but keeping exposure the same.

If you are photographing images with a constantly changing light you would do better in one of the auto modes
03-21-2017, 04:26 PM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikesbike Quote
I think your solution might be to do as I do. Leaving controls at default, in M mode using the green button to set meter-balanced exposure, then it you want a particular aperture, choose it, BUT hit the AE-L button first. As you choose your preferred aperture, the shutter speed will simply follow along, preserving the meter-balanced exposure. That works the other way too- if you hit the AE-L button after the green button has set exposure and you wish to have a different shutter speed, hit the AE-L button first, select your shutter speed, and the aperture will change accordingly.
That is a nice trick and one that I was vaguely aware of from when I first got my K10d, but had forgotten.

QuoteOriginally posted by mikesbike Quote
As to ISO, perhaps just setting the ISO to AUTO in your camera will solve that- I have not tried it myself to find out.
Nope...there is no auto-ISO in M mode.


Steve
03-21-2017, 07:24 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
That is a nice trick and one that I was vaguely aware of from when I first got my K10d, but had forgotten.

Had the same function on my Z1 from 26 years ago !
03-22-2017, 08:22 AM   #12
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Hey Steve

QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
based on my last two actions. (...) Yes, last two actions...most recent plus the one before as the qualifier for ISO-shift.
Can't quite follow you there. Why would you need a qualifier for ISO-shift?

QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
I don't know what is supposed to happen if the most recent is to change the ISO or exposure compensation.
Nothing.

QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Adding ISO into the mix (case C) would like a B-grade horror movie IMHO.
How?

QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Without being snarky, what the OP is asking for (single button Tv-shift, Av-shift or ISO-shift) may be accomplished by using the AE lock button in Tv, Av, or TAv modes.
I'll check it out, thanks!
03-22-2017, 08:36 AM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Nope...there is no auto-ISO in M mode.
The K-01 here can select Auto ISO in m mode with m lenses.
I find that a bit of a nuisance if forgettting to set ISO to 200 in M mode.

Edit however I just tried , and it does remember the last iso setting in m mode, and reverts to that when switching back to M.
03-22-2017, 08:37 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by pschlute Quote
omg this would confuse the hell out of me....."now did i change aperture or shutter speed last..oh I forgot!"
you have a good point.

i assumed, that you would press the green button only right after you have changed a setting.
03-22-2017, 09:08 AM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bromberger Quote
Can't quite follow you there. Why would you need a qualifier for ISO-shift?
With ISO-shift in the mix the logic tree always requires evaluation of the last two actions if actionsSinceBootOrGreenButton >= 2. If actionsSinceBootOrGreenButton == 1, ISO-shift is never done.

QuoteOriginally posted by Bromberger Quote
How?
I don't like B-grade horror movies. Waste of time and money. My experience here on PF taints my opinion on this sort of thing. Over the last decade (), I have taken part in a large number of "my camera is acting crazy" threads where exposure parameters are not ramping as expected. A common thread in determining cause is auto-ISO being enabled. It is not immediately obvious, but ISO is not part of the program curve and the only mode where it ramps predictably is TAv. Even then, I am not sure even that is true for cases involving flash. What you are describing is a variation of auto-ISO and it makes my skin creep.


Steve
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