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08-17-2008, 06:41 PM   #16
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The thing is, they don't have "Nikon equivalents". The body on an S5 is the same as a D200, but it has the Fuji SuperCCD sensor and a massive dynamic range.

That said, I love my K20D and wouldn't trade it for anything. Just pointing out that the Fuji is a respectable and capable rig that deserves some recognition.

08-17-2008, 08:03 PM   #17
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I've shot with a fuji S3, and agree the IQ is great
08-18-2008, 03:10 AM   #18
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This is exactly the kind of post I was fearing about, but then again, only you made it, so I will take some time to answer...

First off, I am not trying to justify anything, I am just pointing out a) the reason I am not so active on this forum, b) the reasons why I am not happy with current pentax offerings which made me switch. If anything, I hope people over at Pentax read this forum too and see that for a brand that is saying on every occassion they are a niche player they are making a lot of mainstream products (at least as far as camera's is concerned.) It is a completely different debate, but the real niche players are IMHO Olympus (for announcing micro 4/3's) and Fuji and Sigma (for trying different sensor technology. Pentax is not in that scheme. Not to me anyway...

As for your other remarks:
- yes, I want a small and capable DSLR, but if noone will offer me that, then it will be big anyway. But for me it is an extra motivation to *not* look at the offerings of Pentax. I was always a bit more different than other people...
- fps count to me doesn't matter. Not for my photography anyway, and it shouldn't to many people. But that is a completely different debate. As for the buffer: I am working on that one. Apparently there is a buffer upgrade available for the S3 and I am looking into that (already contacted Fuji Belgium.)
- sensor of the S3 and the S5 are exactly the same. The only difference is, that the S5 has a stronger AA filter (so hurray S3); al the rest is the same... Exactly the same!
- pray tell: I never fell the need for more than 6 MPix. Why would I want more then?
- as for the viewfinder: the vf of the K20 is exactly the same as that of the ist D. From my experience, the 95% coverage of the istD/K10/K20 is closer to 90%, where as the 93% of the S3 is more like 95%. True, I feared the viewfinder of the S3, but I can now say that the viewfinder of the S3 is at least as good as that of the istD/K20 if not better...
- no, I don't believe in shake reduction. First and foremost, I have steady hands. Secondly, the SR on the K10 made me miss more shots than I care to remember...
- I am a firm believer in AA batteries, and it is not a money thing. When I went on vacation to the UK, I had 6 different chargers with me. I have sworn to myself, that is the last time...

And about IQ: what you believe is one thing, what is true is sth completely else...

QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
I never understood people that feel the need to justify their choices even more so after all is done. But since you did let's analyse a bit :

- You said that you wanted a smaller camera with a very good VF yet you chose a camera BY FAR bigger and heavier than the K20D;
- of course S3 Pro it's ist D reinvented since they are from the same age. I guess that 1,2 fps with 3 frames buffer brings the disco years back;
- I have a great estime for S5 as a very specialised camera but you bought S3 not S5 so I fail to see the relevance of IQ comparation with the K20D. As a side remark if you think S3 Pro has the IQ of a k20D with good glass (which you had) I have to disagree;
- You had a very impresive collection of Pentax glass yet you fail to realise that at least the Limiteds really shine on higher res cameras. Seems to me you had a Ferrari but you drove only in the first 2 gears;
- You sold 7 Pentax lenses (many very good to excelent) and one Pentax camera and bought 2 very good Nikon primes, a zoom I don't know much about, a so-so consumer zoom and a pretty abysmal super zoom plus 2 cameras from 2004. Again I fail to see what's the surprise of getting money left over when only the first 4 lenses you sold fetch easily over 1600 USD;
- K20D has a larger (.95x.95 vs. .95x.93) VF than S3 Pro;
- I see you don't believe in shake reduction ;
- It's the very first time I see someone changing system because he's got some AA batteries left. This really puzzled me a bit to say the least how come a 20 USD past investment could prompt a multi thousand change of system.

I don't think you need to be worried about someone flame you it's not like we're here to defend Sparta and you open the gates for the invading persians or something . I just don't agree that S3 Pro has better IQ than K20D the rest it's your personal decission and I hope you'll be very happy with the new gear.

Radu
08-18-2008, 03:23 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxke Quote
And about IQ: what you believe is one thing, what is true is sth completely else...
Now now, image quality is subjective just like bokeh is. What looks good to you might not look particularly interesting to someone else. It is a matter of preference and I don't think there should be any more debate/bashing on this subject.

08-18-2008, 06:17 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxke Quote
I am just pointing out ...b) the reasons why I am not happy with current pentax offerings which made me switch. If anything, I hope people over at Pentax read this forum too...
It seems to me that if that were your intention, it would be much more effective to write to Pentax directly. We'll be sorry to see you go, but everyone is an individual and what works for one person may not work for another. So ya gotta do what ya gotta do. Good luck.
08-18-2008, 06:50 AM   #21
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I cannot say I understand your reasons for the move. Well, I understand why you didn't like the way Pentax moved (though I don't agree), but I don't understand why you made this particular choice. Though some aspects of the layout of the S3 were interesting I found it a clumsy body. So big and so much space wasted on the back with such a tiny LCD. Ok, LCDs were small in those days, but still... Ergonomics are personal, so I guess this is where personal preferences have to differ...

In the longer term I hope for you you will not find yourself faced with the same "issues" you had with the *istD, i.e. lack of an update path. After all the S3 Pro is only slightly younger (announced one year after the D), and as you wrote Fuji hasn't provided any replacement to your liking since but rather continued on another path you don't like. You passed on the S5 same as you did on the K10D or K20D, so you're still stuck with a camera that's no longer in the philosophy of its makers, so very unlikely to be updated to your liking...

So I cannot understand it Marc, but I accept that we all have different preferences some of which aren't to be explained in a rational way... ;-)

Regardless I wish you the best of luck with your Fuji love story!!

Wim
08-18-2008, 07:09 AM   #22
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QuoteQuote:
In the longer term I hope for you you will not find yourself faced with the same "issues" you had with the *istD, i.e. lack of an update path. After all the S3 Pro is only slightly younger (announced one year after the D), and as you wrote Fuji hasn't provided any replacement to your liking since but rather continued on another path you don't like. You passed on the S5 same as you did on the K10D or K20D, so you're still stuck with a camera that's no longer in the philosophy of its makers, so very unlikely to be updated to your liking...

thats damn near exactly what i was thinking..... good luck regardless.
08-18-2008, 07:28 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxke Quote
This is exactly the kind of post I was fearing about, but then again, only you made it, so I will take some time to answer...

First off, I am not trying to justify anything, I am just pointing out a) the reason I am not so active on this forum, b) the reasons why I am not happy with current pentax offerings which made me switch. If anything, I hope people over at Pentax read this forum too and see that for a brand that is saying on every occassion they are a niche player they are making a lot of mainstream products (at least as far as camera's is concerned.) It is a completely different debate, but the real niche players are IMHO Olympus (for announcing micro 4/3's) and Fuji and Sigma (for trying different sensor technology. Pentax is not in that scheme. Not to me anyway...

As for your other remarks:
- yes, I want a small and capable DSLR, but if noone will offer me that, then it will be big anyway. But for me it is an extra motivation to *not* look at the offerings of Pentax. I was always a bit more different than other people... I guess Pentax is becoming too mainstream for some people which is the best news I heard in a long time!
- fps count to me doesn't matter. Not for my photography anyway, and it shouldn't to many people. But that is a completely different debate. As for the buffer: I am working on that one. Apparently there is a buffer upgrade available for the S3 and I am looking into that (already contacted Fuji Belgium.)
- sensor of the S3 and the S5 are exactly the same. The only difference is, that the S5 has a stronger AA filter (so hurray S3); al the rest is the same... Exactly the same! You are very wrong assuming the sensor is ALL it matters look more closely at the reviews from both cameras (dpreview) and you'll see a big difference in DR among others (noise, ISO, etc) due to newer image pipeline. To put this debate to rest S3 Pro has the same 10 stops of DR as K20D in RAW with ACR the difference is that S3 works better with the highlights which is better in some aplications and worse in others.
- pray tell: I never fell the need for more than 6 MPix. Why would I want more then?
- as for the viewfinder: the vf of the K20 is exactly the same as that of the ist D. From my experience, the 95% coverage of the istD/K10/K20 is closer to 90%, where as the 93% of the S3 is more like 95%. True, I feared the viewfinder of the S3, but I can now say that the viewfinder of the S3 is at least as good as that of the istD/K20 if not better... Your "experience" has nothing to do with numbers. If Pentax would lie about this don't you think other vendors will expose them? Or are you saying that Fuji quotes lesser specs than avaiable out of modesty?
- no, I don't believe in shake reduction. First and foremost, I have steady hands. Secondly, the SR on the K10 made me miss more shots than I care to remember...What can I say? Even my K100D helped me with its SR let alone the K20D. My sincere opinion is that you just wanted something more "niche" than Pentax and now just make arguments up.
- I am a firm believer in AA batteries, and it is not a money thing. When I went on vacation to the UK, I had 6 different chargers with me. I have sworn to myself, that is the last time... I am no expert in this but I guess you only need a socket adaptor to plug your existing chargers. I may be wrong so if you say this is really an insurmantable problem I just WANT to believe you!

And about IQ: what you believe is one thing, what is true is sth completely else... This suits better your previous assertions full of personal "experiences" rather than numbers. And I guess my post annoyied you because of the numbers and counter arguments I provided and you could felt free to respond with numbers too!
Marc,

I don't see what you found offensive in my post, really! My personal opinion is that if you restrained your first post to something like "hey, guys I sold my gear and now I am a happy Fujifilm user I wish you all good luck" very few were eager to respond (maybe persons you had more personal connections with here). But you started a flow of assertions and some of us wanted to respond to THAT not the fact you switched. To cut the long story real short I want to wish you best of luck with your new gear. And maybe consider a moment that you being "a bit more different than other people" and practically refusing all the technical advances Pentax made in the last years doesn't qualify you as somebody Pentax wants to hear wishes from and maybe it it better that you changed to a tiny system maybe more interested in hearing from any of their members.

Radu

08-18-2008, 07:47 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxke Quote
And about IQ: what you believe is one thing, what is true is sth completely else...
Now that's just funny!
08-18-2008, 09:28 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ishpuini Quote
I cannot say I understand your reasons for the move. Well, I understand why you didn't like the way Pentax moved (though I don't agree), but I don't understand why you made this particular choice. Though some aspects of the layout of the S3 were interesting I found it a clumsy body. So big and so much space wasted on the back with such a tiny LCD. Ok, LCDs were small in those days, but still... Ergonomics are personal, so I guess this is where personal preferences have to differ...
Agree, the S3 is big, but it fits tha hand like a glove (well, to me anyway), and that makes up a little for it being big. More, I bet ya it's even smaller than the K20 with the grip attached (if not, it will not be far off, and the S3 has a permanent grip attached. And about LCD's: the LCD is bigger (and better) than that of the ist D. After all, I don't want to be carrying a television set, but just a camera. Yes, the LCD of the K10/20 is bigger, but it's about the same resolution (don't care to check it out) and then we are still not talking about colors and contrast of that big LCD...

QuoteOriginally posted by Ishpuini Quote
In the longer term I hope for you you will not find yourself faced with the same "issues" you had with the *istD, i.e. lack of an update path. After all the S3 Pro is only slightly younger (announced one year after the D), and as you wrote Fuji hasn't provided any replacement to your liking since but rather continued on another path you don't like. You passed on the S5 same as you did on the K10D or K20D, so you're still stuck with a camera that's no longer in the philosophy of its makers, so very unlikely to be updated to your liking...
Well, put it this way. After my K10 disaster, I had my mind set up to stay with the ist D for as long as I could. I even bought me a second ist D. It's slow, but I love it and it suits my needs. Came the DA 17-70 where I had my heart set upon, and whadyanow, no screwdrive, while I was quite convinced it would have had it. Bummer. Moreover, Pentax stated that the DA*'s would be the only two lenses with hybrid AF systems. Bummer again. I can shop all I can in the old A, F and FA biddings and, true, some of them are true gems, but something I have been waiting long enough for ie. 60-250 f/4 (I would rather have had a 50-200 f/4, but ok I would have settled) would not be compatible with the ist D or I would have to pay a $$$ premium for sth I would never take use of (SDM.) Maybe the ist D came too early, maybe SDM came too late. I don't care, but I sure can tell you that it p*ssed me off, and that was the first crack in the Pentax concrete that I had built over the years.

Of course, before moving over to the S3 I kinda investigated if I would not have the same issues. But it's quite firm: the S3 is compatible with all different Nikon technologies (VR, SW, etc...) and the things it isn't compatible with (i-TTL - same as P-TTL with Pentax) doesn't bother me in the least. One advantage I have with the Fuji is the vast amount of Nikkors I can choose from. True, it's not like with Pentax where if on a lens the brandname is stamped, you're ok. With Nikon, you have lots of, well, lets say for the sake of being kind, lenses that are not so well performing. But even if you leave these ones out, there is more offering than with Pentax...

QuoteOriginally posted by Ishpuini Quote
So I cannot understand it Marc, but I accept that we all have different preferences some of which aren't to be explained in a rational way... ;-)

Regardless I wish you the best of luck with your Fuji love story!!

Wim
Some things are unexplainable... Txs Wim!
08-18-2008, 10:07 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxke Quote
....
- pray tell: I never fell the need for more than 6 MPix. Why would I want more then?
...
And about IQ: what you believe is one thing, what is true is sth completely else...

I have to say, this is the first time I've seen someone leave Pentax because Pentax isn't aspiring to move backwards!

The *istD, to me, was no more impressive than the Nikon D40 or Canon XT - in other words, it had nothing to distinguish it from them. The K100D is the whole reason I'm a Pentaxian now.

Anyway, I can see most of your logic, but I have to say that you are making a mistake with the statement "I never fell the need for more than 6 MPix. Why would I want more then?"

I used to think that, also. But I can absolutely guarantee that if you shot with your 31ltd or other great Pentax glass on a K20D for a month, say, you'd see why good glass + 14MP on this new CMOS sensor is so mind blowing. You haven't experienced it first-hand, so you can't know, but being able to crop an insanely sharp shot and lose no visible IQ is addictive and extremely gratifying.

I've said it before - 6MP is like Kansas - 14MP is like opening a door and stepping out into Oz.

Good luck!


.
08-18-2008, 10:24 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
I guess Pentax is becoming too mainstream for some people which is the best news I heard in a long time!
Hey, I still hope all the best for Pentax, but you got me there. One thing I love in Pentax (and Oly and Fuji for that matter) is that they have a history of doing things just a tieniewienie different than other brands.

QuoteQuote:
You are very wrong assuming the sensor is ALL it matters look more closely at the reviews from both cameras (dpreview) and you'll see a big difference in DR among others (noise, ISO, etc) due to newer image pipeline. To put this debate to rest S3 Pro has the same 10 stops of DR as K20D in RAW with ACR the difference is that S3 works better with the highlights which is better in some aplications and worse in others.
I still have to come across any difference in output of the S3 and the S5, but ok, I don't have it all that long. Experience will tell. As for the K20, it is a huge difference... Maybe Wim and I can make a test together...?

QuoteQuote:
Your "experience" has nothing to do with numbers. If Pentax would lie about this don't you think other vendors will expose them? Or are you saying that Fuji quotes lesser specs than avaiable out of modesty?
Numbers are just what they are: just numbers. Or do you seriously believe that a home theatre set from say Panasonic which says that it has 1000 Watt power, indeed has 1000 Watt power? I seriously believe that the 93% coverage of the Fuji is nearer to the truth than the 95% of the ist D/K20... Anyway: I feared the vf of the S3, but I can now say it's as least as good if not better than the ist D. That said, I'm on the outlook for an ocular like the O-ME53 for Pentax. I have the 53 but it doesn't fit on the Fuji...

QuoteQuote:
What can I say? Even my K100D helped me with its SR let alone the K20D. My sincere opinion is that you just wanted something more "niche" than Pentax and now just make arguments up.
Call me different, but there is not one shot of the 3500 or so I made with the K10, there is not one where SR helped (for me.) On the contrary, I can recall several occassions where SR spoiled and blurred a perfectly steady shot...

QuoteQuote:
I am no expert in this but I guess you only need a socket adaptor to plug your existing chargers. I may be wrong so if you say this is really an insurmantable problem I just WANT to believe you!
Won't help as the transformer is attached on the socket...


QuoteQuote:
Marc,

I don't see what you found offensive in my post, really! My personal opinion is that if you restrained your first post to something like "hey, guys I sold my gear and now I am a happy Fujifilm user I wish you all good luck" very few were eager to respond (maybe persons you had more personal connections with here). But you started a flow of assertions and some of us wanted to respond to THAT not the fact you switched. To cut the long story real short I want to wish you best of luck with your new gear. And maybe consider a moment that you being "a bit more different than other people" and practically refusing all the technical advances Pentax made in the last years doesn't qualify you as somebody Pentax wants to hear wishes from and maybe it it better that you changed to a tiny system maybe more interested in hearing from any of their members.

Radu
I am not refusing all the technical advantages, but lets just say that I'm old and mature to pin a whole in all the marketing crap, and that I want to see for myself that a given technical advantage will help me...:
- SR: was a no go for me (and seriously I didn't expect that)
- SDM, USM, SW or whatever you like to call it: do you seriously believe that it's the faster focussing system? I don't.
- the dust buster in the pentax's just doesn't work

I would be the first to embrase these technical advantages if they would do what they are advertised to do, but they don't, so...
08-18-2008, 10:32 AM   #28
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Cheers Marc, have fun with your S3. I see what you're saying but don't agree.

I think however (almost as Arni said), "you'll be back"

Enjoy!
08-18-2008, 10:34 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
I have to say, this is the first time I've seen someone leave Pentax because Pentax isn't aspiring to move backwards!

The *istD, to me, was no more impressive than the Nikon D40 or Canon XT - in other words, it had nothing to distinguish it from them. The K100D is the whole reason I'm a Pentaxian now.

Anyway, I can see most of your logic, but I have to say that you are making a mistake with the statement "I never fell the need for more than 6 MPix. Why would I want more then?"

I used to think that, also. But I can absolutely guarantee that if you shot with your 31ltd or other great Pentax glass on a K20D for a month, say, you'd see why good glass + 14MP on this new CMOS sensor is so mind blowing. You haven't experienced it first-hand, so you can't know, but being able to crop an insanely sharp shot and lose no visible IQ is addictive and extremely gratifying.

I've said it before - 6MP is like Kansas - 14MP is like opening a door and stepping out into Oz.

Good luck!


.
I wish all those people who say the ist D is a so so camera and not better than say Nikon D40 (God forbid!), would actually take the time to use it for a day. I would be all glad to lend mine, and let them speak afterwards...

Just to take the Nikon D40, because you came up with that one:
- feels cracky in the hand and you have the idea it will break while in your hands
- has a crappy little dim viewfinder
- has a slow AF that isn't all that precise
- doesn't have a status LCD
- doesn't have hyper modes
- doesn't accept an optional grip
- doesn't take AA's
- most common modes are menu driven
- do I have to go on?

And as far as cropping goes: if you take the photo right at the first time, then you don't have to crop. More: I don't want to spend lots of bukzzzz on a 31mm to end up with, say, an 85mm. If I want 85mm in the first place I don't crop, I take an 85mm lens to make the shot...
08-18-2008, 10:37 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by Richard Day Quote
Cheers Marc, have fun with your S3. I see what you're saying but don't agree.

I think however (almost as Arni said), "you'll be back"

Enjoy!
Hi Richard. We agree to disagree. But I'm not gone. I still have my ist D's (plural - friday one will become taken away of me.)
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